Raiding needs to be less hardcore

[ryjkur]

Like the title says, raiding nowadays is too hardcore and time consuming. Many my old guildmates have quit raiding because the effort it needs every single tier.
Last two expansions the insane farming required for artifact power grinding is outrageous AND consumable farming in top of that.
I'm fine with gearing 2 raid ready alts if there would be no AP.

The raiding scene must go back to its root where you didn't have this insane mandatory AP grinding to stay competitive. I have raided hardcore every single expansion excluding vanilla and this expansion is the first one where I seriously think going casual, and I'm not the only one.

e: my suggestion would be making actual raid bosses harder at launch of tier, don't make first 80% of bosses loot pinatas. Force guilds to smash their heads on first bosses as well, but maybe make it so bosses drop more loot so it doesn't hurt average guilds in overall progress. I'm fine with longer tiers if there would be no AP grinding every single tier.

[Sezh]

Or you know, maybe you and your quitting guildmates can stop aiming for a world rank 50 or lower.

Whichever system Blizzard tries to implement, the hardcore guilds will find ways to gain an advantage. If there wasn't any AP farm, the top guilds would have 16 alts instead of 6 etc. They'd spend just as much time as they currently are, but on something else.

Being hardcore meant something else back in the day not because of the game but because of player mentality.

[ryjkur]

Or you know, maybe you and your quitting guildmates can stop aiming for a world rank 50 or lower.

Whichever system Blizzard tries to implement, the hardcore guilds will find ways to gain an advantage. If there wasn't any AP farm, the top guilds would have 16 alts instead of 6 etc. They'd spend just as much time as they currently are, but on something else.

Being hardcore meant something else back in the day not because of the game but because of player mentality.

I get your point, maybe there would be 5 alts instead of 2. But the "grind AP or warm the bench" mentality is happening in average mythic guilds as well.

[ceall]

Maybe you should think about dropping down to a top 500 guild instead of a top 50.
These require 0-1 alts that DO NOT have to be on par with your main.

Or going down to a top 1000 guild. 0 alts and 0 grinding required while still achieving CE.

[Kaver]

I get your point, maybe there would be 5 alts instead of 2. But the "grind AP or warm the bench" mentality is happening in average mythic guilds as well.

There are more mythics guilds that don’t have this mentality. I agree with the AP grind being bad and pointless but otherwise this seems to be a problem you have with your guild. Maybe this discussion should happen in your guild and not on a general forum.

[ryjkur]

There are more mythics guilds that don’t have this mentality. I agree with the AP grind being bad and pointless but otherwise this seems to be a problem you have with your guild. Maybe this discussion should happen in your guild and not on a general forum.

It's not just our guild, I'm talking about raiding in general. The AP grind is burning out raiders. Yes, going to guild that doesn't require stops this for me but the problem still exists in game. It's just matter of time when more and more guilds adapt to this mentality, gearing an alt is completely different threshold that doesn't spread as easily.

[Platinengel]

It was always very timeconsuming if your goal / the goal of your guild is set quite high, especially if you are committed in some kind of competition within your server, other guilds or World Rankings. In the past it was farming gear, ressources, reputation, tokens, BOE's. Today it's AP.

And usually people who are part of such a guild know exactly what they are getting into and accept/understand the demand for the best possible preparation for every raid. And I see nothing wrong with that. As a raidleader part of your job is to make sure your raidsquad is homogeneously in terms of mindset, performance, skill and equip. Every gap is a potential problem. So how should a raidleader deal with players who are (for example) still neck level ~44 and want to participate in progressraiding? If those people don't bring up the motivation to get better from their own, it's not the raidleaders job to babysit them.

So the solution is quite easy: Bring the best and most motivated 20 players into progress. If someone lacks behind, he’s benched. And again: I see nothing wrong here.

By the way: Grinding AP isn’t that timeconsuming. If you do just the biggest chunks of AP every week you are already 50 for ~2 month. (IE, Raidclear, weekly M+, weekly Quest, missiontable and sometimes an emissary with AP reward). I started gearing my alt 2 weeks ago, not even doing all what i listed for AP, and he's already necklevel 45.
And even caring for an alt is not mandatory in many progressguilds. You just risk to get benched if your mainclass doesn't suite the progress-encounter.

There are so many guilds out there and if you feel like your guild demands more than you want to do, maybe it’s not the right guild for you. But since you haven’t told us yet what exactly it is that you reluctantly have to do, I only can guess.

And you brought up an interesting point here:

But the "grind AP or warm the bench" mentality is happening in average mythic guilds as well.

Keyword is "average". Many of those guilds don't have the experience, mindset and criteria for what is necessary in a mythic raid guild. Those guilds often developed from casual hc guilds that tried to get a foot into mythic after they cleared hc, or better- before clearing hc to farm the easiest first mythic bosses. Those guilds often lack a bit of everything that should be brought into mythic raiding, and raidleaders usually are aware of this deficit, so they try to compensate the lack of skill and experience by raw output aka. "outgearing". So often you'll find that those guilds set the bars quite high, which is somewhat contradictory.

[Deaged]

6 hours a week will get you CE.

[melzas]

What AP grind? Im playing casually, clearing m+10 every week for a chest, 3 mythic IE every week + daily emissary ( 4 WQ) and spontaneous activities of other kind when I have time/feel like it (bgs, weekly quests, invasions etc.). I dont raid at all (did LFR once for story and campaign quests).

I'VE BEEN SITTING ON LVL 50 NECK FOR A MONTH NOW

Where is that hardcore ap grind you are talking about??? Playibg the game is "too hardcore" now??

Not to mention that last couple of neck ilvl give you nothing more than a bit of neglible stats. Wont fucking make or break you on the meters, or affect your raiding progress, I guarantee you that.

[Drusin]

6 hours a week will get you CE.

Can you math that out for me?

I'm assuming you mean 6 hours of raiding but I believe OP is talking about time in addition to raiding. x amount of time farming M+/AP/mats for consumables/ + same on alts. "I only raid 6 hours a week" doesn't mean you only play 6 hours a week.

[Deaged]

Can you math that out for me?

I'm assuming you mean 6 hours of raiding but I believe OP is talking about time in addition to raiding. x amount of time farming M+/AP/mats for consumables/ + same on alts. "I only raid 6 hours a week" doesn't mean you only play 6 hours a week.

yeah, everyone should be able to get CE by playing 3 hours a week

[Drusin]

Playibg the game is "too hardcore" now??

It's not fun when you're forced to do it.

Not to mention that last couple of neck ilvl give you nothing more than a bit of neglible stats. Wont fucking make or break you on the meters, or affect your raiding progress, I guarantee you that.

It doesn't matter what you think, it's what matters to the raid/guild lead

His guild could be rank 450,000 in the world, if his lead says 5 alts max necks, then it's 5 alts max necks.

[Tyrilion]

I get your point, maybe there would be 5 alts instead of 2. But the "grind AP or warm the bench" mentality is happening in average mythic guilds as well.

You arent in the race so do at your pace.
Raiding is fine.

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It doesn't matter what you think, it's what matters to the raid/guild lead

His guild could be rank 450,000 in the world, if his lead says 5 alts max necks, then it's 5 alts max necks.

The you laugh in his face and /gquit along with everyone else

[Chromell]

Less hardcore? Why do you think LFR and Normal difficulties exist? (assuming you can consider LFR raiding, that is)

[Drusin]

yeah, everyone should be able to get CE by playing 3 hours a week

Man that's tough lol

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The you laugh in his face and /gquit along with everyone else

Yep, I'd be out of there quick lol

But if he won't quit then that's the life he has to live.

[Devilyaki]

Just do lfr like me. Can do everything in a day if you want

[Drusin]

Less hardcore? Why do you think LFR and Normal difficulties exist? (assuming you can consider LFR raiding, that is)

I think he wants to go back to when it was like, you grind out badges or some rep and then you are essentially done with out of raid content (outside of consumable farming).

To be honest thems were the days <3 Race to max level, farm dungeons/rep/level professions for pre-raid BiS then once raids open you just raid and that's it.

[sirethas]

This was true at the Legion launch, in BFA this is hardly correct statement that raiding requires a lot of time.
Getting weekly +10/+11 mythic+ takes 25-40 minutes, finding group for this 2 minutes - 40 minutes (depends on tanks).
I have my neck at lvl49 and I haven't done any WQ in a month, before that all I did was emissaries which takes like 30 minutes a day
I haven't done a single island expedition since BoD release
CE guilds often provides consumables
Simply put, getting CE doesn't require a lot of time at all that's just bad excuse for being bored of the game which is fair excuse because it's not in good state. Classes are boring to play, new contents (Island Expeditions/Warfronts) are boring to do, you can farm mythic+ but that often requires for you to have "meta" class if you are not doing your own group and even they aren't very exciting. And honestly, if you aim for top 100 world and you complain that raiding is too hardcore, then you need to rethink your life priorities.

[Gatto]

Azerite/artifact(legion) power should be something account bound.

You must have the possibility to play whatever you want, and still increase your whole account potency.

Then ofc you will have to gear different players, but just unlock boring grindy stuff once.

[Kaver]

It's not just our guild, I'm talking about raiding in general. The AP grind is burning out raiders. Yes, going to guild that doesn't require stops this for me but the problem still exists in game. It's just matter of time when more and more guilds adapt to this mentality, gearing an alt is completely different threshold that doesn't spread as easily.

But the only problem is really the AP grind. What you’re saying with this thread is that the AP grind sucks. And I agree. Just be more direct because other than AP there is really no problem.