Natural vs. Artificial gates

[tankbug]

When the game loses it's magic, players get lazy. You can either make the game serve them thing faster, or they will get bored and leave.

[Garymorilix]

BfA Release: 13 August, Mythic Uldir 11 September.
Patch 8.1 released 11 December, Mythic Battle of Dazar'alor 29 January
Patch 8.1.5 released 12 March, Mythic Crucible of Storms 23 April

That is what I mean by artificial.

The content was finished development wise.

August 30, 2016 - Legion Release //// September 27 Emerald Nightmare Mythic
October 14, 2016 - 7.1 release //// November 15 Trial of Valor Mythic
January 6, 2017 - 7.1.5 Release //// January 24 Nighthold Mythic

November 13, 2014 - WoD release //// December 2, 2014 Highmaul Mythic

September 25, 2012 - MoP release //// October 9 Mogu'shan Vaults Heroic

I see a pattern here. Don't you?
The intent here is to let hardcore people experience new content before they are forced the go full-on progress mode.
Not everything you wait for is time-gating.

[Jamie081]

Ermh what? Zandalari and Kul Tiran weren't time gated. They weren't in the game day 1 in the emissary building with a timer below them saying "124 days until unlocked". They never said you could play them on day 1. Hell, we didn't even know kul tirans were coming until like november or so?

Raid releases always came after patch releases. Y'know, so players experience the new zones first. This is also not new.
With this logic you could say that leveling is only time-gating end-game content. Which it doesn't btw.
Not everything is time-gating that you have to wait for. This is a stupid ass notion.

Zandalari were pushed back from launch due to story constraints, the BFA website was updated to mention them being available after subsequent patches and certain requirements. Kul Tirans were just made because Dark Irons were not a cool enough equivalent to Zandalari which were more unique than black Dwarves.

Another example: Broken Shore campaign, which Blizzard have since acknowledged and said they will not repeat because of the pointless timegating for bad quality quests.

I'm not even going to entertain the rest of your comment because you're just arguing semantics.

[MCJOHNS117]

August 30, 2016 - Legion Release //// September 27 Emerald Nightmare Mythic
October 14, 2016 - 7.1 release //// November 15 Trial of Valor Mythic
January 6, 2017 - 7.1.5 Release //// January 24 Nighthold Mythic

November 13, 2014 - WoD release //// December 2, 2014 Highmaul Mythic

September 25, 2012 - MoP release //// October 9 Mogu'shan Vaults Heroic

I see a pattern here. Don't you?

I also see a pattern. Wotlk removed attunements AND didnt have time gated content. Subscription numbers plateaued. Cataclysm added LFR. Subscription numbers fell. MoP and WoD had time gated raid releases. Subscription numbers fell until they stopped reporting subscription numbers.

Monthly active users is not a useful metric. Its just a bigger number for investors to see and get excited about. What you need are metrics on retention and reactivation. Both of which Blizz has never released.

At the end of the day, this is all about increasing the amount of time a user stays subscribed.

The main point I am trying to make is that they are doing this by delayed release rather than in-game methods and that does not sit right with me.

[Garymorilix]

Zandalari were pushed back from launch due to story constraints, the BFA website was updated to mention them being available after subsequent patches and certain requirements. Kul Tirans were just made because Dark Irons were not a cool enough equivalent to Zandalari which were more unique than black Dwarves.

Another example: Broken Shore campaign, which Blizzard have since acknowledged and said they will not repeat because of the pointless timegating for bad quality quests.

I'm not even going to entertain the rest of your comment because you're just arguing semantics.

So you acknowledge other reasons for the Zandalari and somehow confuse that with time-gating. As I said, nothing in-game said you have X days to wait. That would be literal time-gating, by definition.

I don't see how the Broken Shore campaign is current content. I hated that too. What's the "semantics" here? Wanna be right much?
However, that was still not full-on time gating, nothing worse than dailies used to be before. That just shows how much we've grown with our tastes as WoW players.

For example, I remember I had to log in every day in WotLK to do five 5-man dungeons for tokens. Every single day. Time-gating? No. Horrible reward system? Indeed.

Not everything is time-gating. This has become a buzz-word thanks to streamers.

[MCJOHNS117]

So you acknowledge other reasons for the Zandalari and somehow confuse that with time-gating. As I said, nothing in-game said you have X days to wait. That would be literal time-gating, by definition.

I don't see how the Broken Shore campaign is current content. I hated that too. What's the "semantics" here? Wanna be right much?
However, that was still not full-on time gating, nothing worse than dailies used to be before. That just shows how much we've grown with our tastes as WoW players.

For example, I remember I had to log in every day in WotLK to do five 5-man dungeons for tokens. Every single day. Time-gating? No. Horrible reward system? Indeed.

Not everything is time-gating. This has become a buzz-word thanks to streamers.

How did you feel when they limited the amount of dungeons you "needed" to run each week in cataclysm? You went from being able to do all the dungeons you want and gear at your own pace, whether thats as fast as possible, or slowly each day. it offered a difference of play style by choice. In cataclysm they limited the number of dungeons you could get valor points from each week. It had the opposite effect as what they intended. People felt they NEEDED to run those 7 dungeons to maximize their efforts.

[Garymorilix]

I also see a pattern. Wotlk removed attunements AND didnt have time gated content. Subscription numbers plateaued. Cataclysm added LFR. Subscription numbers fell. MoP and WoD had time gated raid releases. Subscription numbers fell until they stopped reporting subscription numbers.

Monthly active users is not a useful metric. Its just a bigger number for investors to see and get excited about. What you need are metrics on retention and reactivation. Both of which Blizz has never released.

At the end of the day, this is all about increasing the amount of time a user stays subscribed.

The main point I am trying to make is that they are doing this by delayed release rather than in-game methods and that does not sit right with me.

Cataclysm added LFR in its last content patch. Look at your graph with this knowledge in hand and think.

WotLK had horrible systems in place that would be considered time-gating now.
Wintergrasp to token reward systems to rep grinds (old school rep grinds).
The reason WotLK had this many subscribers is way more complex than simply having instantly open raids.

Also, I remember the attempt limit in WotLK. People loved that feature too I guess? Right?

- - - Updated - - -

How did you feel when they limited the amount of dungeons you "needed" to run each week in cataclysm? You went from being able to do all the dungeons you want and gear at your own pace, whether thats as fast as possible, or slowly each day. it offered a difference of play style by choice. In cataclysm they limited the number of dungeons you could get valor points from each week. It had the opposite effect as what they intended. People felt they NEEDED to run those 7 dungeons to maximize their efforts.

The "you have to run this amount of 5-mans daily/weekly" reward system was horrible. That's why we don't have it now. I don't see a problem here.

[MCJOHNS117]

Cataclysm added LFR in its last content patch. Look at your graph with this knowledge in hand and think.

WotLK had horrible systems in place that would be considered time-gating now.
Wintergrasp to token reward systems to rep grinds (old school rep grinds).
The reason WotLK had this many subscribers is way more complex than simply having instantly open raids.

Also, I remember the attempt limit in WotLK. People loved that feature too I guess? Right?

Wrath rep grinds - You could equip a tabard and run dungeons as fast as you wanted to level those reps. You had THE CHOICE to do that.
I don't believe people enjoyed the limited attempts which is my point. It is an artificial limit placed on the speed at which you can consume content and it was met with anger.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Watching streams of classic beta players and comparing it to my experiences in BfA I have come to realize that along the line Blizzard has replaced natural gating mechanisms with artificial gating mechanisms.

Let me explain. Before the release of match-made LFG in WotLK, finding a group required a time investment. Sometimes it was a couple of minutes, other times you could spend the better part of a play session trying to find a group. Either way, this averaged out to more time required to make a group. This naturally extended your playtime. Further, to help minimize the time required to find a group you actually wanted to participate. You wanted to be interactive. You wanted to network so that maybe you could build a group of friends that you could pull from for future group content.

Contrast that with today and match-made LFG/LFR. You click a few buttons and you are listed. No need to interact because the matchmaking only cares about your class/spec, no sort of built in "score" (I am not suggesting that 'lfg scores' should become a thing, but now that i'm thinking about it...maybe?) You can consume more content at a faster rate than you could before, and you don't necessarily have to be good at it. There is little to no incentive to participate.

That's not what 'gating' means. An attunement is a gate. Finding a group is not a gate.

[Garymorilix]

Well the game is apparently fine for those who raid or do m+ at a high enough level, so the problem must surely be for that 80% which are just experiencing unimpactful content.

Unless you think the game is not losing subs.

See, here's the problem.

You can't answer these questions. Because there is no answer. People are stupid.

You say doing raids or m+ at higher levels is good, then say that 80% don't do that and they are unsatisfied. Now, using these statements, answer question number 2 please.

I'm interested where you stand on the 20% vs 80% on this matter btw.

[Nymfomania]

They didnt, they catered to the majority and their outcries slowly over the years.

Attunements are a waste of time, average terrible player remembers this "Amazing questline that took him forever", i remember running back and forth, cleaving down 3 dragons, killing Drakisath once more and woohoo, big fucking quest, completed in what? 4 hours with being generous, but since it was my second character ~3-4 months after launch, i had a clue so lets say it doesnt count.

Sure, Alliance side which was my first character took 5 hours because we didnt know what we were doing and were terrible the first month of Vanilla in EU, not because "Jail Break" was such an amazing quest,we just did every quest we had since we were terrible.

TBC wasnt any different, its something you do anyway, it just forces you to run a dungeon one extra time since you are gonna do it anyway.

Its the reason everyone is crying nostalgia about most things, everyone experiences things differently depending on their skill level, therefor they view things differently.

And no, people dont want LFG/LFR removed, they want the game to return to a period (in their nostalgic brain) where being terrible at the game is accepted and they never meet someone that reminds them how god damn awful they are.

That and there is the usual rando that wants to find "friends" in online games.

Its surprising how everyone calling for "LFG/LFR" ruined the game is always the same "barely achieved anything in the game and have been playing for a decade" somehow.

I remember how epic it was getting my dread steed, rather than going to my class trainer. I wouldn't want to do it again but at the time it was legit.

[Relapses]

Man, I'm disappointed in you guys. It took two whole pages before somebody linked the useless WoW sub image and drew a completely incorrect conclusion from it.

[Garymorilix]

Wrath rep grinds - You could equip a tabard and run dungeons as fast as you wanted to level those reps. You had THE CHOICE to do that.
I don't believe people enjoyed the limited attempts which is my point. It is an artificial limit placed on the speed at which you can consume content and it was met with anger.

Those are not the reps I referred to. But nice attempt.

[MCJOHNS117]

That's not what 'gating' means. An attunement is a gate. Finding a group is not a gate.

No, finding a group is not a gate. But manually building your group through social interaction took time. This reduced the speed in which you could consume content naturally. This extended the time you stayed subscribed.

now you can find a group in minutes by clicking a few buttons. This means you can experience the content of a patch or expansion at a fast rate. This means you dont need to stay subscribed longer to experience everything. That is why they release raids weeks after a patch. You resub for the patch, then they get another month from you while you work through the raid.

Either way I don't mind paying the sub. I want to be subscribed to the game. I don't, however; want to pay a subscription because they can not design systems that NATURALLY take more time to complete.

- - - Updated - - -

Those are not the reps I referred to. But nice attempt.

Then give me specific examples or "Otherwise, it's just too vague an argument to argue, and whatever opposition comes up can be disregarded as "you don't get it" or "this is not what I meant". Or smth like that."

[Garymorilix]

No, finding a group is not a gate. But manually building your group through social interaction took time. This reduced the speed in which you could consume content naturally. This extended the time you stayed subscribed.

now you can find a group in minutes by clicking a few buttons. This means you can experience the content of a patch or expansion at a fast rate. This means you dont need to stay subscribed longer to experience everything. That is why they release raids weeks after a patch. You resub for the patch, then they get another month from you while you work through the raid.

Either way I don't mind paying the sub. I want to be subscribed to the game. I don't, however; want to pay a subscription because they can not design systems that NATURALLY take more time to complete.

- - - Updated - - -



Then give me specific examples or "Otherwise, it's just too vague an argument to argue, and whatever opposition comes up can be disregarded as "you don't get it" or "this is not what I meant". Or smth like that."

Sons of Hodir, Kalu'ak, Ashen Verdict, Sholazar Tribes and the Main Ally/Horde repus (tho these were easier).

[MCJOHNS117]

Man, I'm disappointed in you guys. It took two whole pages before somebody linked the useless WoW sub image and drew a completely incorrect conclusion from it.

An observation is not a conclusion. I observed that when players had a choice in the speed at which they consumed content, subscription numbers rose. When that choice was removed, subscription numbers plateaued and then started to fall. Your right, subscribers mean nothing. Like I said already, retention and reactivation are the numbers we need.

[Jonnusthegreat]

No, finding a group is not a gate. But manually building your group through social interaction took time. This reduced the speed in which you could consume content naturally. This extended the time you stayed subscribed.

now you can find a group in minutes by clicking a few buttons. This means you can experience the content of a patch or expansion at a fast rate. This means you dont need to stay subscribed longer to experience everything. That is why they release raids weeks after a patch. You resub for the patch, then they get another month from you while you work through the raid.

Either way I don't mind paying the sub. I want to be subscribed to the game. I don't, however; want to pay a subscription because they can not design systems that NATURALLY take more time to complete.

Even mentioning this makes no sense when talking about gating. Finding a group is an RP feature. It's not related to gating at all. QOL improvements have nothing to do with this.

[Garymorilix]

I was an heroic raider, only did m+ for weekly +10. Currently I'm waiting for classic.

Nice, you didn't answer my question tho.

I know it can't be answered, but thought you'd try.

[MCJOHNS117]

You lost me here, that logic can be applied to anything. When you need 1 vial per raider from LV and KT and it drops 4 per kill, how is that "natural" gating? And even when you had all vials, the next raid was still not available until Blizzard put it into the game.

Getting 40 Onyxia cloaks? I bet you can make all kinds of arguments for that being "artificial" or "natural". The moment you put a mat requirement on a gating mechanism, it is not "natural" in my book.

Kill a boss as a gating mechanism? Fair enough. Call that natural. But put a rep gate before entering the raid? "Natural" when you can grind day or night to get it? "Artificial" when it is liked to dailies?

And then it still doesn't say which one is a better game mechanism, as "grinding until your eyes bleed" (natural gating if I understand you correctly) has been cited as a reason that people burn out, because of lack of self-control or guild pressure.

Okay, maybe "natural" was not the correct word to use. The difference I am trying to make is gating through things that are done in the game, versus gating by delaying developed and tested content after a patch release.

[MCJOHNS117]

Even mentioning this makes no sense when talking about gating. Finding a group is an RP feature. It's not related to gating at all. QOL improvements have nothing to do with this.

The point is that those QoL changes increased the rate at which you can experience the content of a patch/expansion. Because that is increased, they need another method of retaining your subscription.