Blizzard killed off Mythic+ on PTR

[ID811717]

Stíng's Item level is 0.94 less than KathDruid, who's actually only 8/9M themselves and has ~50 Mythic boss kills to 517 +10's.

Just beware: you cannot trust any of WoWProgress stats. The indicated "517 +10s" might have actually mean "500 +25s in Legion and 17 +10s in BfA". My former main char from Legion shows "550 +10s" according to WoWProgress. But when I check its raider.io tooltip in game, I only bothered to time "9 +10s" on this (now) alt across the current season. On the other hand the "517 +10s" on WoWProgress might actually mean "517 +20s or higher" which would give more than twice the number of loot pieces compared to farming +10s.

Nope. M+ are easy, they have easy mechanics, with higher key it had only moře hp and more dmg. But mechanics are still the same. On dungeon bosses you watching maybe 3 abilites, on myth raid more. Raids has weekly ID, m+ you can spam.

On +2 there are basically 0 mechanics for a geared 420 group. I haven't played +2 in a while, but I suspect in some dungeons you could pull all trash into bosses, AoE everything down, and it's gonna be fine.

On the opposite end, if you want to time 23s-25s, you may as well consider the entire dungeon equivalent to one 30 min long boss fight with hundreds of abilities, where any misplayed ability will make you deplete the key. To make things worse, you'll have to pull multiple trash packs together, or you might pull some trash (or reaping) into boss fights. In some cases it's beneficial to chain trash, into reaping, into more trash, into next reaping, and play it with boss.

The mechanics in M+ are "still the same" across all key levels, but you can completely ignore and outheal 90% of all mechanics if all you do are some +10-12s for weekly. Even after you get past +20s, well into +23s, you will keep discovering mechanics that you did not have to respect just 2-3 key levels below. And timing a higher key will force you do bigger and more efficient pulls, which will only amplify the difficulty of dealing with multiple mechanics at once.

That is the appeal of pushing M+ for challenge. No matter if you are trying to go from timing +13s to timing +16s, or from timing +21s to timing +24s - you will always be discovering new things, adjusting your pulls, and learning to handle situations that never arised in lower keys.

[dirtybrew]

I made a fotm war tank and got him from 300 ilvl to 418 in less than a month. Majority of gear is from 420+ m+ titan forges which i spammed.

[Battlebeard]

youtube.com/watch?v=SDsZKDwL1ho




Thanks to all these selfish, arrogant raiders who kept complaining to blizzard that Mythic+ dropped good gear.

This game is soo garbage now, if you don't run raids then there is 0 content left. It's time to unsub until Classic WoW.

This is a GOOD thing. It was too easy to gear through M+ to begin with.

[Gatts]

Exactly. You are encouraged to participate and experience the entire game. Whereas in BfA you can just run Mythic dungeons.

Now Imagine if raids had tier sets again... no matter how good your gear was from M+, you always would want to raid to get tier bonuses.

Imagine if PvP weapons were once again available and just as good as the weapons from he LAST boss of a raid tier? Encouraging participation in PvP.

Imagine if reputation rewards included items like shoulder enchants again that could only be gotten there. or the occasional pre-raid BiS item?

Instead, now you just bum rush WQs and world bosses to become "raid ready" HOURS after dinging max level.

totally true
I agree with you that now players can gear from M+ only and that really awful, also that WQs and emissaries that make heroic raids gear worthless, also PvP gear is useless in PvE

M+ now is an easy gear they need to make it harder they need to make it less rewarding like what I said you won't get weekly chest unless you complete it in time.
i don't know why blizzard removed tier sets it was great and make raid gear valuable.

[Maudib]

totally true
I agree with you that now players can gear from M+ only and that really awful, also that WQs and emissaries that make heroic raids gear worthless, also PvP gear is useless in PvE

M+ now is an easy gear they need to make it harder they need to make it less rewarding like what I said you won't get weekly chest unless you complete it in time.
i don't know why blizzard removed tier sets it was great and make raid gear valuable.

If you ask me, they shoudl remove gear entirely form M+

Make titles, special mounts, transmogs, etc. be the rewards. If it is engaging gameplay aimed at competitive play... it should not reward gear

[Gatts]

If you ask me, they shoudl remove gear entirely form M+

Make titles, special mounts, transmogs, etc. be the rewards. If it is engaging gameplay aimed at competitive play... it should not reward gear

that will make raids the only source of gear and that not desirable.

[Maudib]

that will make raids the only source of gear and that not desirable.

Going back in time...

You quested and progressed your gear.
You crafted and progressed your gear
You ran dungeons and progressed your gear.
You PvP'd ad progressed your gear.
You raided and progressed your gear.

All of this was progression... and encouraged you to participate in all the activities i the game.

Why would it be bad that the best gear came from raiding? Because if you don't like to raid you wouldn't get it? Yeah, so? If you aren't raiding maybe you don't NEED raiding gear?

If Mythic+ is considered a competitive gaming activity... shouldn't everyone be given the same gearing when they zone in? To make it a level playing field and based on skill?


The problem is.. if M+ can give you basically the same level gear as Raiding... then people can skip once or the other. In an MMO, you want people to engage in ALL of the activity... and the only way to do that is to give them unique rewards and a clear progression path.

[Zantera]

The OP is hilarious though. I mean in one sentence you have the 2 statements: "no content unless you raid now... time to wait for classic".

[ID811717]

I assume when the new season hits, the M+ levels will be readjusted as always, meaning that S3's +10 will be scaled up to be S2's +15.

If you did +15's at the start of the season (equivalent to +20's in season 1)

In BfA the base difficulty of M+ from S1 to S2 was increased by 30%. This actually corresponds to 3.4 key levels. So if you do a +15 now, numerically that's roughly the same difficulty as +18 in Season 1. Just above +18.

Time doesn't necessarily mean effort. An M+Rat who spams +10's with the same crew they've timed 15's or higher with is putting in a lot of time but not necessarily effort.

I don't think casuals spamming +10s for loot should be anyone's concern. You can spam 100s of +10s and your gear will nearly never match a dedicated mythic raider's gear in the long run. You're likely to burn out and quit the game faster than that happens anyway.

Also +10 in time gives 3 pieces of loot. +15 in time gives 5 pieces of loot. +20 in time gives 7 piece of loot. +23 in time gives you guaranteed 8 pieces of loot and 20% chance of a 9th piece of loot. Depleted keys give exactly 1 piece of loot fewer. If you look at the characters in world top 10-1000 ilvl rankings, they likely did multiple sources of end game content (mythic raid, PvP caps, M+). If they did spam M+ and benefited from it, they likely spammed high keys with their high end peers. So if they time +23, they get nearly 3x the amount of loot as from +10, and also any titanforges will often get traded to one of the 1-2 party members who can still benefit from them. There is a snowball effect, and I doubt you can benefit nearly as much while farming +10-15s in a casual group.

Most characters above 3k-3.5k have timed at least 100 runs at +20 or higher this season. My main M+ character has just above 100 timed "+20s or higher" and just above 100 depleted "+20s and higher" according to (manually counting) the runs listed on raider.io. If you assume that all of these runs were in +20 (and not higher), then my groups got at least 1300 pieces of loot. To get the same number of pieces, you need to time 650 +10s. My character also has just below 100 timed runs between +15 and +19, and that gives a whole lot more loot. The character is around 420 in bags. My character statistics say that I acquired nearly 2800 epic items, and half of the character's /played time is from this M+ season, so you'd guess at least 1400 acquired items are from this season (probably a lot more, closer to 2000). The titanforges are rare. If loot was my driving force, I would have burned out within weeks of the tier start. If someone put an equal amount of time into farming just 10-15s, I don't think they would be close to 420 in bags. Casuals farming +10-15s for insane gear is not a realistic scenario, outside of very few insanely lucky individuals. And I will likely never meet one of them in game (if only because they are doing content that is irrelevant and boring to me).

Remember, every "Season" the raids are entirely new while the dungeons haven't changed. Sure there's a new seasonal affix and some balancing for better gear, but it's the same trash packs, the same ideal pulls and the same bosses so the efficiency in clearing isn't lost from season to season.

Reaping was a push over. But I think the new seasonal affix will significantly change the pulls and slow down the mindless farming for some time, until people learn how to handle it.

[Wilfire]

Blizzard killed off Mythic+... and revived mythic raiding. What's the problem exactly? Mythic raiding is the superior form of endgame content.

[Porcodio]

I love how people are playing a RPG

And try to defend the less skill based content

Do a M+ 20 where Trash are stronger than Bosses, you already knows the pull the routes and stock rogue to skip and cheese.

You require 0 skill but only practise in doing the route faster or cheesier.

Then you do on time? Nice.
The you don't do on time? No problem


You still get phat loot from weekly.



Meanwhile people wipes 300 times to Mekkatorque where robots requires more skill and coordination than pressing shroud of concealment.

-----

Honestly removing TF will tune it down because dropping 410 doing a 10 is a joke.

I would not mind if a 20 gave a 420 and a 10 a 400 so a 15 410

[Teaon]

i rather they keep m+ level the same as now, but keep titanforge/warforge a raid thingy, that could solve many stuff.

[Soikona]

Is this true? I might come back if it is!

[Porcodio]

At the best remove TF from M+ and put some prestige loot unique.


Do all 20 in time for Season 3?

Gold Elemental Mount like Opulence.

Do all 15 in time for Season 3?

Gave some unique MoP/WoD Xmog for sets or weapons ( unique not recolours )


Plus for the Bleeding Edge players

Top 10 Timer per Dungeon receive an unique Title.

Dunno : Top 10 Timers Waycrest " %name% The Witcher "
Top 10 Timers Freehold " Buccaneer %name% or Matey %name% "


Remove the urge of spamming M+ for gear and people will enjoy it

[Gatts]

Going back in time...

You quested and progressed your gear.
You crafted and progressed your gear
You ran dungeons and progressed your gear.
You PvP'd ad progressed your gear.
You raided and progressed your gear.

All of this was progression... and encouraged you to participate in all the activities i the game.

Why would it be bad that the best gear came from raiding? Because if you don't like to raid you wouldn't get it? Yeah, so? If you aren't raiding maybe you don't NEED raiding gear?

If Mythic+ is considered a competitive gaming activity... shouldn't everyone be given the same gearing when they zone in? To make it a level playing field and based on skill?


The problem is.. if M+ can give you basically the same level gear as Raiding... then people can skip once or the other. In an MMO, you want people to engage in ALL of the activity... and the only way to do that is to give them unique rewards and a clear progression path.

currently, there is 2 source for 415+ gear M+ and mythic raiding if they remove gear from M+ we end up with one source, also when the players get the rewards for M+ they will not do M+ again.
gear in M+ encourage players to play it, the main problem is that 415+ ilvl gear can be obtained easily from M+, they just need to make it hard to get like mythic raiding gear

[HuxNeva]

I don't think casuals spamming +10s for loot should be anyone's concern. You can spam 100s of +10s and your gear will nearly never match a dedicated mythic raider's gear in the long run. You're likely to burn out and quit the game faster than that happens anyway.
...

If someone put an equal amount of time into farming just 10-15s, I don't think they would be close to 420 in bags. Casuals farming +10-15s for insane gear is not a realistic scenario, outside of very few insanely lucky individuals. And I will likely never meet one of them in game (if only because they are doing content that is irrelevant and boring to me).

Fully agree on this. But somehow people are convinced by that MMO-C story about that friend of a friend that heard of this guy that just ran a few LFR's and a handful of M+ dungeons and is now Ilvl424 in bags. It somehow never occurs to them to look through their guild's loot news and see for themselves how bloody rare TF actually is.

[Maudib]

currently, there is 2 source for 415+ gear M+ and mythic raiding if they remove gear from M+ we end up with one source, also when the players get the rewards for M+ they will not do M+ again.
gear in M+ encourage players to play it, the main problem is that 415+ ilvl gear can be obtained easily from M+, they just need to make it hard to get like mythic raiding gear

There should only EVER be one source for gear. It's natural progression of an MMO, and encourages content consumption.

Having two sources split participation and reduces viable content and hurts BOTH activities. Some players choosing M= and do not raid, other people choose raid and do not M+. Having it linearly progress, essentially increases content for everyone without reducing participation in either one.

[HuxNeva]

currently, there is 2 source for 415+ gear M+ and mythic raiding if they remove gear from M+ we end up with one source, also when the players get the rewards for M+ they will not do M+ again.
gear in M+ encourage players to play it, the main problem is that 415+ ilvl gear can be obtained easily from M+, they just need to make it hard to get like mythic raiding gear

You can't even get the Azerite gear with the raid affixes from M+. As for Azerite from M+ for most you just have to settle for being able to buy a random piece from the vendor once every 3 weeks and hope it rolls good. Non Azerite pieces will be ilvl400 base, with a tiny chance to forge. If you are counting on that, you should also take that into account for your raiding gear (which has a higher forging chance btw) and just call M raid gear ilvl425 (capped). Your M+ gear is basically on par with HC gear, which seems reasonable.

[Barzotti]

There should only EVER be one source for gear. It's natural progression of an MMO, and encourages content consumption.

Having two sources split participation and reduces viable content and hurts BOTH activities. Some players choosing M= and do not raid, other people choose raid and do not M+. Having it linearly progress, essentially increases content for everyone without reducing participation in either one.

There should be only one source of gear because... you decided it? More choice is always good. Having more than one interesting source of gear allows players who can't or don't raid for X reasons to keep playing. Your "solution" increases fuck all, it limits the possibilities. We already saw that the "raid or die" mentality had a disastrous effect in WoD. But hey, WoW has a tremendous success nowadays, it's such a good idea to make people quit. Without M+ I would have quit at Antorus release.

[HuxNeva]

At the best remove TF from M+ and put some prestige loot unique.


Do all 20 in time for Season 3?

Gold Elemental Mount like Opulence.

Do all 15 in time for Season 3?

Gave some unique MoP/WoD Xmog for sets or weapons ( unique not recolours )


Plus for the Bleeding Edge players

Top 10 Timer per Dungeon receive an unique Title.

Dunno : Top 10 Timers Waycrest " %name% The Witcher "
Top 10 Timers Freehold " Buccaneer %name% or Matey %name% "


Remove the urge of spamming M+ for gear and people will enjoy it

It's a character progression game. Only a tiny percent of players play just for 'prestige'. People are enjoying M+ just fine as it is. You seem more ken on destroying it or making it into some near dead content like CMs.