Raiding needs to be less hardcore

[Garymorilix]

Adding AP to m+ is changing the game? So you’re totally okay with players being shoehorned into 1 bit of content if they want to grind only because you like it and don’t see it as a problem? That’s absurd to me personally. I have no idea why you’d object to having more variety in regards to grinding. Being able to pick between islands or m+ is healthier then only being able to do islands. Even if m+ is slightly less efficient at least it gives players the option. I was never talking about islands fulfilling their purpose, I made it very clear I don’t like them, there’s plenty of players that don’t, same with m+ I’m sure, that’s why it would be better to give players the option rather than only allow it to be grindable from 1 form of content.

The thing is, you are not shoehorned into any bit of content. Maybe by your guild, but not by the game. This same guild would force you to do archeology all day if that gave more AP.

Islands were designed to be the most efficient AP farming methods, this is their purpose beyond transmogs and pets or whatnot. M+ give actual loot. Huge difference. By your logic Islands would also need to provide loot in order to give that "variety" you want. Which would infintely inflate item level given their easier design.

Your solution to the problem is basically just flipping it, making Islands completely useless. Why would you farm islands for AP when you get the same + loot in M+? This is not a solution. This is not a problem in the first place.

[Tiwack]

Now I'm really puzzled.

People over the world (russian/euro/american) always cry that game is too casual.
Then I see threads like this one.

And LFR haters, LFR lovers... All that stuff... Poor Blizzard, there is no possibility to make everyone happy I believe

I have my own opinion about raiding, and have easy answer to that > I have no time to spend on mythic raiding, but gladly closing every aotc happy.

Maybe I just dont understand the situation because I dont raid hardcorish, but well, I was in a serious raiding guild once and understood its not for me.

A lot of online discourse suffer from the lack of consensus because there's no structure and benefit to organizing beyond the guilds and player groups people participate in. Basically take everything about hobbies with a grain of salt and remain critical until you've at least checked things out yourself or gotten your information from someone you're certain is reputable or has a large crowd following them. Even then mistakes can still happen so remember to always err on the side.

[Drusin]

We had raidlogging in WoD. Wasn't one of the loudest complaints of the expansion specifically that there was "nothing to do" outside raiding? I doubt Blizzard will go that way again after the backlash.

I remember that. Personal preference I guess, as a collector and achievement whore I was quite happy with the free time I had in WoD The highlight of my week was 1 night clearing M HFC and then having the rest of the week to work on the stuff I actually enjoy.

[Taeldorian]

The thing is, you are not shoehorned into any bit of content. Maybe by your guild, but not by the game. This same guild would force you to do archeology all day if that gave more AP.

Islands were designed to be the most efficient AP farming methods, this is their purpose beyond transmogs and pets or whatnot. M+ give actual loot. Huge difference. By your logic Islands would also need to provide loot in order to give that "variety" you want. Which would infintely inflate item level given their easier design.

Your solution to the problem is basically just flipping it, making Islands completely useless. Why would you farm islands for AP when you get the same + loot in M+? This is not a solution. This is not a problem in the first place.

It certainly is an issue, maybe not for you though. Islands would reward mounts+transmog+AP, mythic+ would reward AP and gear. That seems balanced enough to me. It doesn’t matter which one is more slightly efficient that’s the point your not understanding, if they make m+ award slightly less AP than islands but still be viable for grinding then that gives us options. You can choose between islands or m+. Right now, if you want to grind at all it’s just islands. I would gladly farm m+ even if it were slightly less efficient because I enjoy it much more than islands. If other players enjoy islands more then they have that option. It’s not flipping anything, people will grind whichever content they find more enjoyable whether it’s m+ or islands as long as they have the option to. Method might not but they do drastically different things then the rest of the raiding community.

[ping-pong]

It certainly is an issue, maybe not for you though. Islands would reward mounts+transmog+AP, mythic+ would reward AP and gear. That seems balanced enough to me. It doesn’t matter which one is more slightly efficient that’s the point your not understanding, if they make m+ award slightly less AP than islands but still be viable for grinding then that gives us options. You can choose between islands or m+. Right now, if you want to grind at all it’s just islands. I would gladly farm m+ even if it were slightly less efficient because I enjoy it much more than islands. If other players enjoy islands more then they have that option. It’s not flipping anything, people will grind whichever content they find more enjoyable whether it’s m+ or islands as long as they have the option to. Method might not but they do drastically different things then the rest of the raiding community.

Grind is not meant to be fun or enjoyable. Grind is the thing you do if you want to get stuff done faster than people who don't grind. If you only care about playing what's fun for you, well, go ahead and play what's fun Who told you that beating hardest things in the game and acquiring best stuff in it would be fun all the time? Everyone who repeatedly clears hardest content is used to doing fun stuff AND grind. Because by only doing fun stuff you're limiting your progress compared to a person willing to grind. The game has content for both ways of playing.

Can you name one sport or e-sport where being in top 5-10% doesn't require a massive amount of tedious training (grind)? Imagine a basketball player who trains only what he feels like is fun at any given day. Do you see him playing for a decent team? Can you imagine a driver even making it to F1 without serious training that's rarely fun? Gotta push through the dirt to emerge victorious.

[crusadernero]

You'd save yourself a ton of headache if you let go of the old color coding that's been irrelevant for years now and the preferential treatment you believe yourself entitled to for sitting on your ass like everyone else paying/playing.

sorry to burst your bubble but I dont get any amazing rewards in wow anymore. Been years since I played it on a serious level. I do the basic stuff and clear the raid on normal. So can everyone else, with or without "skill".

[Taeldorian]

Grind is not meant to be fun or enjoyable. Grind is the thing you do if you want to get stuff done faster than people who don't grind. If you only care about playing what's fun for you, well, go ahead and play what's fun Who told you that beating hardest things in the game and acquiring best stuff in it would be fun all the time? Everyone who repeatedly clears hardest content is used to doing fun stuff AND grind. Because by only doing fun stuff you're limiting your progress compared to a person willing to grind. The game has content for both ways of playing.

Can you name one sport or e-sport where being in top 5-10% doesn't require a massive amount of tedious training (grind)? Imagine a basketball player who trains only what he feels like is fun at any given day. Do you see him playing for a decent team? Can you imagine a driver even making it to F1 without serious training that's rarely fun? Gotta push through the dirt to emerge victorious.

That’s pretty ridiculous. “A grind has to be tedious and hard, it can’t be fun! If it’s fun then it’s not a grind.” That’s not even remotely true. Not only that but how do you know the rigorous training isn’t fun for those athletes or competitors? You keep citing examples of sports with a lot of training but you have no idea if they love it or not, considering the type of people they are they probably do. It’s a really bad comparison you’re trying to make here, it doesn’t work. You’re making too many assumptions here.

Not only that but saying a grind can’t be fun/is not meant to be enjoyable is just ignorant and flat out ridiculous. What about raiding and grinding the entire raid until you finish it or grinding out 300 pulls on a boss? That’s fun. What about leveling in classic? That’s fun. Fun is subjective, stating that grinding has to be purposefully shitty and unenjoyable sounds like a great way to bleed subscribers.

There are plenty of examples of grinds that are enjoyable. Asking for a grind to have variety as opposed to only one way to complete it is a completely reasonable request. Hell for people that enjoy islands, the grind is fun. For people that love m+, the grind in legion was fun (after they fixed AP at least). Imagine if gear only came from raids as it used to, its not like that anymore because the game requires variety.

[Lyaira]

I find it almost entertaining that a lot of people in this thread insist that fun content has to be gated behind grinding and trivial activities. Why is it mythic raiding has to be gated behind doing tons of world quests and island expeditions? Why can't WoW be like an open buffet, where you pick the dishes you like?

The people who keep claiming that nobody is "forcing" anyone to do anything, and that hard content isn't "for everyone" and is supposed to require a lot of work must be masochistic. There is no logical explanation for having an AP system that the majority of the community dislikes. And while the system isn't strictly "forcing" anyone to do anything, it "pushes" players to do certain types of content over other types. If your goals in the game are of competitive character then grinding becomes "mandatory", because doing 9 hours of trivial grinding and 1 hour of pursuing goals in your favourite activity becomes advantageous over spending 10 hours of pursuing goals in said activity.

I cant help but think that the people who are so opposed to removing grinds are using it as an excuse to why they haven't accomplished anything significant in the game yet, while staying in the belief that they are among the best players out there. As if removing the grind would reveal them as frauds, as "having a life outside" WoW would no longer be conflicting with being among the best players in a competitive activity of your choice.

[Zka]

AP farming required for raiding? Maybe if you're bleeding edge. Consumable farming: the ONLY thing that costs significant money is the primary stat pot, which need to be cheaper for sure.

[La]

I find it almost entertaining that a lot of people in this thread insist that fun content has to be gated behind grinding and trivial activities. Why is it mythic raiding has to be gated behind doing tons of world quests and island expeditions? Why can't WoW be like an open buffet, where you pick the dishes you like?

The people who keep claiming that nobody is "forcing" anyone to do anything, and that hard content isn't "for everyone" and is supposed to require a lot of work must be masochistic. There is no logical explanation for having an AP system that the majority of the community dislikes. And while the system isn't strictly "forcing" anyone to do anything, it "pushes" players to do certain types of content over other types. If your goals in the game are of competitive character then grinding becomes "mandatory", because doing 9 hours of trivial grinding and 1 hour of pursuing goals in your favourite activity becomes advantageous over spending 10 hours of pursuing goals in said activity.

I cant help but think that the people who are so opposed to removing grinds are using it as an excuse to why they haven't accomplished anything significant in the game yet, while staying in the belief that they are among the best players out there. As if removing the grind would reveal them as frauds, as "having a life outside" WoW would no longer be conflicting with being among the best players in a competitive activity of your choice.

I've gotten CE the past two tiers quite early, and I haven't "grinded" anything. I log in 3 hours for 3 days to raid, I do the max IE, if I have more time I do whatever WQ give the most artifact exp, do a 10, and don't play the rest of the week. People in our guild have less levels in their neck than I do and we clear things no problem, and we've never had to do this, apparently rampant grinding that people keep speaking of.

Any game has a way to grind certain things as an option, whether or not your shitty guild forces you to do it is something you're opting yourself into because you've signed the guild charter that says you're hardcore, or you're in a guild that wants to think they are and that a max neck is a necessity. I didn't agree with it in Legion, and I don't agree with it now, but the notion that the vast minority of top 50 guilds complaining about something is also hard to sympathize for.

[sopeonaroap]

7000 people are clearing the hardest current content and it's not due to difficulty as much as participation

in vanilla, the least accessible time in wow's raiding history, 900 guilds killed a single naxx boss, which means they were competent and did all the time consuming, expensive pre-requisites, but just weren't good enough to clear it since only 23 guilds actually did that

there is no evidence that a lower barrier for entry makes raiding better in wow, and this expansion's numbers probably make the opposite case. nobody wants to do 4 versions of a raid, and the average player is going to be doing just that. they're gonna do LFR, they're gonna clear normal and struggle in heroic and a lot will even kill some bosses in mythic later in the patch, but they're burned out before they ever get to the actual raid content in mythic. the raiding difficulties before mythic aren't the REAL wow raid for that patch, they're easy ways to get geared to do the real shit

and people aren't doing it. they don't want to.

normal and heroic were plenty of choice in wotlk

raiding isn't too hardcore, it's not hardcore enough. people who want to raid will raid, people who don't wanna raid just don't matter in wow. it's the end-goal whether you like it or not, but 4 fucking difficulties is a waste of time for devs and players.

if it felt like an accomplishment to clear normal content, the people who coudln't do better would be satisfied with that. it would feel good and it doesn't now

[Lyaira]

I've gotten CE the past two tiers quite early, and I haven't "grinded" anything. I log in 3 hours for 3 days to raid, I do the max IE, if I have more time I do whatever WQ give the most artifact exp, do a 10, and don't play the rest of the week. People in our guild have less levels in their neck than I do and we clear things no problem, and we've never had to do this, apparently rampant grinding that people keep speaking of.

Any game has a way to grind certain things as an option, whether or not your shitty guild forces you to do it is something you're opting yourself into because you've signed the guild charter that says you're hardcore, or you're in a guild that wants to think they are and that a max neck is a necessity. I didn't agree with it in Legion, and I don't agree with it now, but the notion that the vast minority of top 50 guilds complaining about something is also hard to sympathize for.

It is not a concept that is limited to top 50 guilds. And no guilds set "requirements" for the neck level. Players involuntarily farm the AP on their own, whether they are in a guild or not, because it increases their character strength, thus enabling them to do the content that they really desire and enjoy. Why can't players do the content they desire and enjoy right off the bat without being impaired by lack of traits and such? There is no logical explanation for such a system being in place in the first place and your anecdotal response is completely evading that issue.

[w00dyone]

I think blizz have made a good job of allowing you to raid at whatever level you wish through LFR -> mythic

[KaPe]

I think blizz have made a good job of allowing you to raid at whatever level you wish through LFR -> mythic

Which is all good and well but has little to do with repetitive Islands, World Quests or other boring ways of preparing for Mythic raiding. We've had a bit of downtime due to level 50 neck cap, but all that stuff will make a "triumphant" return in two weeks. Joy.

[Poe]

There are hundreds of 9/9 mythic guilds that do not require alts or mandatory AP grinding.

I know 9/9 M guilds who still have main raiders with sub 46 neck levels.

[Osmeric]

AP farming required for raiding? Maybe if you're bleeding edge. Consumable farming: the ONLY thing that costs significant money is the primary stat pot, which need to be cheaper for sure.

Or, you need to farm herbs for an hour each week, on your main or an alt.

[KaPe]

Or, you need to farm herbs for an hour each week, on your main or an alt.

One hour a week is *very* optimistic, unless you don't prepot at all and only pot during the final 20% or so. Or there was so hidden nerf to herb requirements which I missed... except there wasn't and they still need quite a few plants.

[NatePsy]

That's just how it works when you're aiming for the top 200 mate, time investment is needed. Anything outside of top 200 is pretender level and putting in more effort than needed at that stage is just "Why?"

[Osmeric]

One hour a week is *very* optimistic, unless you don't prepot at all and only pot during the final 20% or so. Or there was so hidden nerf to herb requirements which I missed... except there wasn't and they still need quite a few plants.

I think it depends more on how quickly wipes are called during progression.

[Fred Skinner]

"And then, they wiped the 132th time against Ugor the Terrible, king of the gnome slavers, heir to the throne of gong, Lord-Pixelboss of the latest raid."

Not something i think is fun doing.