Would you select a server without layers given the choice?

[tikcol]

Oh, I know how it works. I just never had a problem with it because I'm smart enough to deal with that stuff. It's really not hard, and it's really not that effective. If you want to spend all your time farming mats that's fine, but know that the money you make is because of time in. Not exceptional success. 8k gold in 3 weeks doesn't sound like that much when that many people devote that much playtime to gathering high end mats.

People bitching at you is no evidence. People complain about seeing the same names on the market in FFXIV all the time, even though there is NO resource competition there.

Yet another vague post with no essence whatsoever.

I'm smart enough to deal with that stuff

Please elaborate, or don't and continue being vague because you have nothing of worth to say

It's not 8k gold across all characters involved. I really can't take someone seriously that says 8k gold isn't a lot of gold in vanilla and is foolish enough to bring FFXIV into the conversation.

You're moving goal posts faster than a rat in heat which really makes it blatantly obvious that you're here just to argue for the sake of it without any inclining about how classic WoW works

[Echocho]

I think it actually could be beneficial to have a bunch of servers without layering simply because such a large portion of the community are too stupid to understand what will happen without it.

[anon5123]

"Sit in a queue for 2 hours" VS "actually play the game"

hmm I dunno, really tough choice there OP

[Shaetha]

Yet another vague post with no essence whatsoever. It's not 8k gold across all characters involved. I really can't take someone seriously that says 8k gold isn't a lot of gold in vanilla and is foolish enough to bring FFXIV into the conversation.

You're moving goal posts faster than a rat in heat which really makes it blatantly obvious that you're here just to argue for the sake of it without any inclining about how classic WoW works

Actually we've gotten off topic completely. The original point what that layering won't effect anything except making the game possible to play for a larger amount of people, and playable for a longer period of time. I didn't move goal posts, you did. I just followed. I just counterpointed all your also anecdotal posts that don't mean anything with my own anecdotal posts that don't mean anything. Although, now that I think about it, layering would make your attempts at scumlord tactics less effective by making it even more impossible to monopolize. Not that it's possible to make something more impossible.

The FFXIV thing was irrelevant to the discussion, but so was you bringing up people whispering you. Like I said though, your anecdotes mean as much as mine do, so unless you can present some actual evidence that counters my personal experience of being able to farm as much as I wanted of any material I needed by putting the time in, this discussion has outlived its value.

Nice job switching from actually refuting my points to ad hominem though.

[Thunderball]

My thick skull... Ugh tikcol idk why I dont have you on ignore already. Time to change that.

Servers will have 7.5k because layering allows it. Without layering the servers would be 3k tops.

It's pretty thick tbh. Implementation of layering has nothing to do with hardware capabilities, but with devs trying to get the most cost effective solution out, that will still resemble vanilla, at least to a non-suspecting player. They dont want to open a bunch of servers and then having to merge them after the tourists leave, they dont want to design a new type of technology to deal with influx of players on launch, or use dynamic respawns like private servers did, so they're just going to implement CRZ, minus the x-realm part.

[Nixiuz]

It's times like this when I appreciate logging-on into EVE Online's single shard server.

[Thunderball]

You realise that Layering would HELP the community right? You realise that having MORE People online on a server at one time than less helps a Community right?
You realise Layering isn't cross-realm technology and everyone in the layers is still on the same server right?

You realise your entire argument is inane and you don't actually understand that layering is actually the best solution for the opening of servers if you want to have a flourishing community.

There's nothing stopping them from doing 10-15k servers. The narrow point here are login servers, not the population game world can handle.

They're not doing it because they dont have any technology to give players better experience on launch (which is not in line with what happened in vanilla) and they discarded other solutions that would be better.

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Mafias don't work like that. They work by threatening other people's businesses until they pay them money. Since you can't do that in WoW, and there aren't any illegal goods for sale on auction, they hold literally no power. You're chasing a boogeyman that doesn't exist. The unused leather is because there's no demand for it. Plain and simple. The fact that no one wants the supplies for the price you want to sell them for doesn't mean people are out to get you. It just means you fail economics.

Also, using private servers for any information at this point for how the game works has been proven unreliable at best, so your second point is meaningless. Private servers are apparently doing a LOT of things wrong.

There are no other businesses if noone else is skinning devilsaur.

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Also, to everyone thinking that layering somehow helps with queues:

Queues will still exist with layering!

[Battlebeard]

I want the "vanilla experience" rather than a better game, for nostalgic reasons and I'm not afraid to admit that, so I rather play with lag and hundreds of people trying to tag the mobs to be honest. Layering has no place here.

[tikcol]

Actually we've gotten off topic completely. The original point what that layering won't effect anything except making the game possible to play for a larger amount of people, and playable for a longer period of time. I didn't move goal posts, you did. I just followed. I just counterpointed all your also anecdotal posts that don't mean anything with my own anecdotal posts that don't mean anything. Although, now that I think about it, layering would make your attempts at scumlord tactics less effective by making it even more impossible to monopolize. Not that it's possible to make something more impossible.

The FFXIV thing was irrelevant to the discussion, but so was you bringing up people whispering you. Like I said though, your anecdotes mean as much as mine do, so unless you can present some actual evidence that counters my personal experience of being able to farm as much as I wanted of any material I needed by putting the time in, this discussion has outlived its value.

Nice job switching from actually refuting my points to ad hominem though.

It was never impossible to monopolize the most rare materials, it's pretty easy and like I said layering won't change a thing. Scumlord tactics will always exist, you either take advantage of them or be affected by them, individuals insulting others for taking advantage of the market are pretty relevant for the conversation considering you said that people partaking in scumlord tactics have no power over the market.

They do, you won't be picking any black lotuses, you won't be skinning any devilsaur on your own. You will have to buy them off the AH at the price they decide because you won't be able to craft them otherwise.

Devilsaur set is pre-raid bis for hunters, rogues and warriors, black lotuses are needed for most if not all flasks.

Layering is kind of irrelevant at that stage though if we go by what Blizzard said, considering they stated they would get rid of layering a bit after release. I'm skeptical they will keep their own word though.

[FelPlague]

It's pretty thick tbh. Implementation of layering has nothing to do with hardware capabilities, but with devs trying to get the most cost effective solution out, that will still resemble vanilla, at least to a non-suspecting player. They dont want to open a bunch of servers and then having to merge them after the tourists leave, they dont want to design a new type of technology to deal with influx of players on launch, or use dynamic respawns like private servers did, so they're just going to implement CRZ, minus the x-realm part.

1. yes, layering has everything to do with hardware capabilities
2. how is having servers that you then merge layer, any different then layering in the grand scheme? other then the server merging being a massive annoyance of "what servers are being merged" and "alright which guild gets the name, and which one has to give up the name"
3. lololol "just design a new technology you fucks!" why dont you do it?
4. dynamic respawns like Pservers did... you mean the ones that utter buttfucked the economy and felt nothing like real vanilla? rare camping at they spawned super fast. finding 1 mob and then camping it instead of EXPLORING to find more mobs. oh and dont forget shoving 1000 people all into the same small zone would cause absolutely NO PROBLEMS AT ALL.


i would love if you could actually back up fucking anything you say, that would be great mate. you cant just say "invent a new technology" and pretend that's an actual fucking argument. "Wow scientists just fucking cure cancer already, what are we even paying you for!?" almost like you are speaking from... hmmm... a place of ill information, like you think someone can just snap their fingers and boom, it happens.

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I want the "vanilla experience" rather than a better game, for nostalgic reasons and I'm not afraid to admit that, so I rather play with lag and hundreds of people trying to tag the mobs to be honest. Layering has no place here.

if you wanted that you should have played the stress test.
cause idk if you know, but even without layering it would not be the vanilla experiance.


vanilla did not have pre-download, people had to wait till the game launched, buy the game, drive home, then spend hours installing it, to days installing it based on your pc and internet.
people then had to create their accounts, settup, and choose servers, mostly at random. they then spent a while looking over all the races and deciding what to pick, then the classes!

and many people did not buy day 1, waiting until reviews came in on how the game was, or didnt even know about it, and had to learn about it from friends.


these days every single person, millions, will all be logging on at the exact same instant, not split as a constant stream over days or weeks or months.
INSTANTLY, they will have the game, they will have their charecter, their servers, their game installed.
everyone who wants to play classic will be logging on at the exact same moment.
NOTHING like classic.



if you want vanilla then i reccomend instead of playing when the servers go live you

drive to your local bestbuy
sit outside for about 3-4 hours before the servers go live
spend ab out half an hour there to do your best to simulate a line
drive home
uninstall current wow, then reinstall it, do that about 3-5 times, then choose the server it reccomends for you, then read through every race and all their lore/skills on the right side, then do the same for each class. THEN you are good to go.

that will be the closest YOU can get. now if everyone does that with minor variations then it would be like actual vanilla launch.
but they wont
everyone will make their charecter 2 weeks ahead of time, already know everything about the game, where to go, what to play, what they plan to do.
and millions will be dropping into the world all at the exact same moment.

[Thunderball]

1. yes, layering has everything to do with hardware capabilities
2. how is having servers that you then merge layer, any different then layering in the grand scheme? other then the server merging being a massive annoyance of "what servers are being merged" and "alright which guild gets the name, and which one has to give up the name"
3. lololol "just design a new technology you fucks!" why dont you do it?
4. dynamic respawns like Pservers did... you mean the ones that utter buttfucked the economy and felt nothing like real vanilla? rare camping at they spawned super fast. finding 1 mob and then camping it instead of EXPLORING to find more mobs. oh and dont forget shoving 1000 people all into the same small zone would cause absolutely NO PROBLEMS AT ALL.


i would love if you could actually back up fucking anything you say, that would be great mate. you cant just say "invent a new technology" and pretend that's an actual fucking argument. "Wow scientists just fucking cure cancer already, what are we even paying you for!?" almost like you are speaking from... hmmm... a place of ill information, like you think someone can just snap their fingers and boom, it happens.

1) No it doesnt, it's just means to preserve "gameplay", without having to deal with merging servers. Private servers were able to handle 10-15k concurrent people online on shitty emulator and shitty hardware. I dont see a reason why Blizzard wouldnt be able to do it. If anything hardware requirement will be bigger because not only Blizzard has to support the same amount of people playing, but they also have to dedicate some hardware to the software that does actual sharding.
2) Exactly. Other reasons being people being upset that they cant get away with farming absurd amount of stuff on an empty server or get world bosses easy.
3) Private server developers did it, I dont see why Blizzard wouldnt be able to do it.
4) No I mean the ones that were done properly. I dont see anything wrong with the economy, apart from the fact that conventional farming methods are not effective because the chinese are in there. Yeah ofc it's a lot different from vanilla, but vanilla also didnt have 10k people online at the same time on most servers, and the ones that did were unplayable.

You dont need to invent anything, you just have to listen to what people are telling you instead of trying to make it into retail with vanilla content.

[FelPlague]

1) No it doesnt, it's just means to preserve "gameplay", without having to deal with merging servers. Private servers were able to handle 10-15k concurrent people online on shitty emulator and shitty hardware. I dont see a reason why Blizzard wouldnt be able to do it. If anything hardware requirement will be bigger because not only Blizzard has to support the same amount of people playing, but they also have to dedicate some hardware to the software that does actual sharding.
2) Exactly. Other reasons being people being upset that they cant get away with farming absurd amount of stuff on an empty server or get world bosses easy.
3) Private server developers did it, I dont see why Blizzard wouldnt be able to do it.
4) No I mean the ones that were done properly. I dont see anything wrong with the economy, apart from the fact that conventional farming methods are not effective because the chinese are in there. Yeah ofc it's a lot different from vanilla, but vanilla also didnt have 10k people online at the same time on most servers, and the ones that did were unplayable.

You dont need to invent anything, you just have to listen to what people are telling you instead of trying to make it into retail with vanilla content.

1. i would love if you could show me any evidance a private server was able to handle 10-15k players without any lag.
ESPECIALLY all in the same zone.
2. mhm sure
3. lololol i would love if you could show any of this. I heard the nost dev also cured cancer, why cant blizzard do it!? my evidance? nah. dude stop making bullshit claims unless you have evidance to back it up.
4. yeah no mate, just stop its sad at this point. you keep making tons of claims from a place of ignorance with literally nothing to back it up.

[Thunderball]

1. i would love if you could show me any evidance a private server was able to handle 10-15k players without any lag.
ESPECIALLY all in the same zone.
2. mhm sure
3. lololol i would love if you could show any of this. I heard the nost dev also cured cancer, why cant blizzard do it!? my evidance? nah. dude stop making bullshit claims unless you have evidance to back it up.
4. yeah no mate, just stop its sad at this point. you keep making tons of claims from a place of ignorance with literally nothing to back it up.

1) What does one zone has to do with it? Layering does nothing against same zone contention by Blizzard's design. We cant name this stuff here so you can just google the most popular one.
3-4) Same as #1. The server still exists, you can check out for yourself.

[FelPlague]

1) What does one zone has to do with it? Layering does nothing against same zone contention by Blizzard's design. We cant name this stuff here so you can just google the most popular one.
3-4) Same as #1. The server still exists, you can check out for yourself.

yeah no, private servers have been very well known to cheat and fake their numbers, so nah. im not googling to find your eivdance for you.

how about you go in, and record some footage of you seeing a few thousand people in one location, then i will believe you.

[Velerios]

You're very much on point here in my opinion, and i fully agree.

Early WoW's success didn't even require anything like a smooth launch. It didn't need it, it didn't have it - and it succeeded despite of it being a complete mess. If it had a smooth launch, it would just be a small cherry on top, but absolutely not the determining factor about whether the game is going to be well received overall or not.

Here you are right

Just like Classic WoW's success is not going to be determined by the launch. Even with issues stemming from the games foundations, like potential low pop realms down the line or initial big queues by using normal realms, the game will overall once again prove it's quality on it's own, not needing layering or anything like it. There's a huge market for the game that wants nothing but that game - and everything that comes with it. <snip>

And here you are wrong.

Having long queue back in the days was not a hindrance. They opened server one after another, so it was no long-lasting issue. WoW was released and in a time where this genre was still quite new and many people wanted to try it. Opening new servers was not a big issue, because WoW continued to grow. But even back in Vanilla, we already had a LOT of dead realms after some time.

Here it is different: Vanilla only have a small market, the chances to grow is quite slim, otherway, the chance that it shrinks is very high; especially if there is really no new content coming.

So what happen is that opening too many servers will lead to a lot of dead realms; and that would simply lead to go back to connected realms; something that's a FAR WORSE outcome than having for a few weeks layering

So sorry, but having Layering is the only way that Vanilla will work. Having a queue in this age is pathethic, and having too many dead realms only leads to whatever we have now: many realms that are connected to each other an CRZ, because realms would be empty without it, especially the leveling zones.

It's better they start with Classic with the right way: having a low number of realms and layer them; later remove the layer and open if necessary new realms or not. But everything is better than the abyssmal number of realms we have where most of them are empty.

[Alkizon]

2. how is having servers that you then merge layer, any different then layering in the grand scheme? other then the server merging being a massive annoyance of "what servers are being merged" and "alright which guild gets the name, and which one has to give up the name"

Difference is quite obvious and it consists in impossibility of any contacts between them, ANY, ABSOLUTELY ANY. Closed social group that can't be changed or run away from it, only to adapt/cohabit, condition that is mandatory and no one has right to change it. For layers case: escape/complete loss of interactions is common situation... not to mention number of exloits that such system provides.

So what happen is that opening too many servers will lead to a lot of dead realms; and that would simply lead to go back to connected realms; something that's a FAR WORSE outcome than having for a few weeks layering

This is just an opinion. Was your realm connected? My wasn't, so I can't loudly argued about personal experience, but my friends didn't express any unpleasant impressions about this practice. They said, that everything was normal, when devs chose servers wisely. People were added, old ones hadn't disappeared anywhere, game conditions hadn't changed. Given this, I repeat once again, what you're saying is just an opinion.

ps. And, by the way, about "few weeks", so far this is only an opinion too. No one knows about accurate/precise duration. Servers can settle down from 2 weeks to year(s), and one way or another they will probably have to end up “connecting” them, and no sort of layering will save devs from this... unless they'll stay there forever

<<BACK|FORWARD>>

[Greengrim]

I'd play on any server or wait any que, so long as there are tiny souls for me to reap in STV!! Of course that is, if I manage to pull out the mental tenacity that is needed to level and gear a rogue...

[Charge me Doctor]

Except that mafias do not work like that.

First thing - how old are you? Mafias? Really?

I've had over 100 devilsaur leather sitting in my bank at one point and that was just me alone. Together I would assume there was around 1k unused leather sitting across all our banks and alts. Mafias effectively control supply and demand because they objectively control the whole market.

Second - that's private server community you are talking about, right? Those things didn't happen on classic.

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And if the queue is much longer? As in hours? I mean server size will already be a ton larger than it was in vanilla, so why aren't people complaining about the fact that will affect the economy even more than layering?

Some people just weren't there for 4+ hours long queues and calls to your roommate to turn on your PC and launch one .bat file 4 hours before you get to work

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Layering allows it? Private servers never had any layers and manage 10k people online without any lag. Next non sense argument please.

6.5k online atm, 40ms.

10k people online is not vanilla, #nochanges. Servers without layering will be capped not because it's technically impossible, but because game wasn't designed with that many players on one server. With layering they'll be able to put more people on a server while keeping this vanilla flavor of having locations overcrowded, but not too much.

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You know people are #nochangedrones when they'd prefer to have a bunch of dead realms (but classic is about the community lul) after launch for the sake of "authenticity"

Layering is the lesser evil and my poison of choice

"i rolled my first toon on a shit dead server, wasting whole vanilla, then having to level a bloodelf paladin from a scratch without even tasting the endgame, now i want others to experience this too!"

[Annelie]

Layering is phasing with another name. It is working exactly like phasing on the beta. I dont want that at all.

[Whistl3r]

Why can't people get their heads round the fact that layering benefits us all, both in the long and short term?

Queues are rubbish
trying to tag the same mob as 50 other people is rubbish
dead servers are really rubbish

Layering and exploiting are rubbish but neither will last long.