Blizzard's biggest failure - Managing to motivate people to gear up

[Zephire]

Sounds like OP doesn't want to play an RPG. It's fine to not want to gear up, maybe there are other things to do. But the natural end goal has always been and will always be grouped up content, be it mythic dungeons/m+ or raiding. If none of the endgame content appeal to you, guess what... You don't really enjoy this type of game.

Did you even read the post? :O

OT:
It seems that many people believe that different activities stole players from other activities. Say that LFR stole people from raiding/pugging. Might be true, I've no idea. I'd say it's like when people complain about art directors wasting time on art instead of fixing bugs. It's two very different jobs and I think many who raid LFR would maybe not raid if it wasn't for that. I wouldn't raid more than to clear a raid if HC was the hardest difficulty (HC of today). Different people for different things. If we all just play the game we'll make the world richer for one another.

I feel motivated to be as geared as I can for mythic raiding though when the only upgrades I can get are TF then I lose interest in gearing. Instead I look to push some m+ dungeons and maybe get a TF upgrade if lucky. Gear is just a bonus at that point.

A challenge motivates me. A difficult mythic boss, Mage Tower, I'm not interested in rewards, they're just bonuses and gear is just a tool you use to overcome that challenge.

[justandulas]

You aren’t wrong. I honestly tried giving 8.2 the old college try and already feel burnt out by dailies the patch.

This is the biggest issue with wow currently, even tho some people like it; is that it’s too diablo 3 and not enough Everquest. It showers you in gear and don’t worry, it’ll shower you again next patch if you wanna play. It’s become play the patch, not the expansion. There’s literally no progression of beat A to get to B, B to C, etc. instead, we have this shallow kiddie pool mmorpg system where the only content is the current patch and we all have the same gear, just different ilvls, because Blizz can’t hurt anyone’s feelings

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Did you even read the post? :O

OT:
It seems that many people believe that different activities stole players from other activities. Say that LFR stole people from raiding/pugging. Might be true, I've no idea. I'd say it's like when people complain about art directors wasting time on art instead of fixing bugs. It's two very different jobs and I think many who raid LFR would maybe not raid if it wasn't for that. I wouldn't raid more than to clear a raid if HC was the hardest difficulty (HC of today). Different people for different things. If we all just play the game we'll make the world richer for one another.

I feel motivated to be as geared as I can for mythic raiding though when the only upgrades I can get are TF then I lose interest in gearing. Instead I look to push some m+ dungeons and maybe get a TF upgrade if lucky. Gear is just a bonus at that point.

A challenge motivates me. A difficult mythic boss, Mage Tower, I'm not interested in rewards, they're just bonuses and gear is just a tool you use to overcome that challenge.

M+ is another thing that’s killed higher end raiding this time around. It seemed it was more balanced during legion and raiding always gave the best. Now, it’s not so clear cut and m+ farming can be better and just as lucrative by the end of the patch as raiding. People take the path of least resistance.

It’s tough because on one hand I admit m+ is a brilliant addition to the game (legion form but lesser bfa form) but it has done irreparable damage to the raiding scene

[SirBeef]

8.2 released. I had fun, I was busy. I did all dalies every day. I even did the pet battles and enjoyed that for extra Najatar rep. I killed almost all rares every single day, all dailies, everything. Then I reached Revered with both factions, unlocked flying. An investment.
Then what? Why would I continue doing dailies? For mounts? No thanks, already have 200+ of those.
I was enjoying 8.2 for the exact amount of time I knew I would enjoy it, until I unlocked flying.
Now it's back to M+ farming simulator. I rather not. I have not played for 4 days now, at all.
And I don't seem to be alone. I payed close attention to the amount of people that were logged on in my guild every day. It somehow stooped down very hard the next coupple of days. Hmm...

Why did people enjoy Legion and the Mage tower? Because they permanently unlocked cool transmogs. It felt like an investment.

Why is all people do these days farm mounts and transmogs? Because it feels like an investment.

Why do people NOT farm the best possible gear? Because it feels like a huge waste of time. Just wait for the next catch up mechanic.

Why do people NOT feel motivated to do Mythic raiding? Because they already beat the raid in LFR. Why would they bother? Blizzards current "carrot on a stick"? A Mount, of course! Other than that it's just the same gear with higher numbers that don't give you exclusive access to ANY content.

It is BLIZZARDS JOB to make us motivated to do their activities.

This is why unlocking allied races and unlocking flying is something people do, it's an investment. Yes they are good systems, as long as Blizzard "never" add a catch up mechanic on them.

They have, however completely failed making us motivated to put any effort into gearing and Mythic raiding.

They failed making people bother getting 25 people together in Cata when they made 10 man give the same gear.

They failed making people bother even raiding when LFR was introduced in the end of Cata.

They failed making people do Battlegrounds because it gives no competetive gear whatsoever.

I am exactly as casual or hardcore in this game as Blizzard manages to make me motivated to be. Mounts and Achievements don't cut it to make me bother putting in any effort. Try something else.

Here is a suggestion for a motivator, that is the core of any MMORPG... GEAR... The main motivator to do anything until catch up mechanics and multiple difficulties started appearing mid WotLK...

And there is no "striking a balance" here on catch up mechanics vs gear feeling like an investement. Either gear feels like an investment OR you have catch up mechanics. There is no inbetween.

And yes, multiple raid difficulties / scaling dungeons is a form of catch up mechanic.

At Blizzcon, there will be yet another expansion with all the same failed motivation to gear up. What exactly will be different this time?

I did none of those things because they felt like an investment. I did the mage tower on certain classes because I liked the look. I'll go get something that I think looks cool because I think it looks cool. None of this is done because I feel like it is an investment.

[justandulas]

I very much agree with you OP.

It feels like Blizzard have diluted the idea of gear in WoW. Its something you always get nearly no matter what you do, everybody gets upgrades and every patch the old gear gets thrown out the back window.

I think Blizzard have somewhat forgot that gear is in the game for a purpose. Its not just there for a cosmetic reward, but as a tool to go deeper into the content of the game. Not to go on a nostalgia trip, but there used to be a content ladder, where gear allowed you to go into new content/raids. The reason i did Karazhan, was to get gear to get into Gruul's Lair, so that i could get gear to get into SSC and so on. Its like that with any RPG. You get gear not only to feel powerful, but because it is needed to defeat harder enemies and when it comes to "difficulty levels", it just is not enough to cut it. Content in itself should be its own reward, not just higher numbers.

Amen dude. I’ve been preaching that the ladder progression is missing and going from lfr, normal, heroic to mythic of the same encounters just doesn’t do it for me and the vast majority of players.

Blizz forgot that in an mmorpg, it’s ok to have haves and have nots.

The ladder progression is important not only to keep you going, but to be a true gauge of progression.

[Zephire]

M+ is another thing that’s killed higher end raiding this time around. It seemed it was more balanced during legion and raiding always gave the best. Now, it’s not so clear cut and m+ farming can be better and just as lucrative by the end of the patch as raiding. People take the path of least resistance.

It’s tough because on one hand I admit m+ is a brilliant addition to the game (legion form but lesser bfa form) but it has done irreparable damage to the raiding scene

You mean that people do m+ instead of raiding? It might just be two different cups rather than one. Maybe they don't really want to raid anyway? Maybe they're just out for the best/fastest gear? Even if I'd like to raid more, I can only get loot from the first time I kill a raid boss each week. In m+ I can do it over and over. So the only way for me to get better gear to make the raid easier is by doing m+. Imagine m+ only giving loot once per dungeon per week, like raids :P

What damage has m+ done to the raiding sceen?

[justandulas]

You mean that people do m+ instead of raiding? It might just be two different cups rather than one. Maybe they don't really want to raid anyway? Maybe they're just out for the best/fastest gear? Even if I'd like to raid more, I can only get loot from the first time I kill a raid boss each week. In m+ I can do it over and over. So the only way for me to get better gear to make the raid easier is by doing m+. Imagine m+ only giving loot once per dungeon per week, like raids :P

What damage has m+ done to the raiding sceen?

You literally just spelled it out and then like “but what damage did it do?”

People do m+ to get gear near instead of raid. Why commit to mythic raiding when pugging heroic and chain running weekly m+ will leave you just as geared at the end of the patch?

Raiding desperately needs not only higher ilvl gear, but unique gear that ONLY drops on heroic or mythic to set them apart.

[Krille]

You literally just spelled it out and then like “but what damage did it do?”

People do m+ to get gear near instead of raid. Why commit to mythic raiding when pugging heroic and chain running weekly m+ will leave you just as geared at the end of the patch?

Raiding desperately needs not only higher ilvl gear, but unique gear that ONLY drops on heroic or mythic to set them apart.

Because people don't just care about gear? Imagine playing WoW and gear is your main drive, what a cuckfest.

[Oneirophobia]

That's the main goal of a mmorpg... farm gear to be able to farm better gear (mythic raids). It's been like this since the beginning of wow and I don't see the problem, that's why I play wow => to get stuff to do raids (and mm+)

Why are you even complaining ? Are you new to mmos ?

You’ve missed the point. Why farm gear to get better gear when you can just wait for the next catch up mechanic to get better gear?

Simply waiting for gear is easier than bothering with challenging content. You’re not missing out on a single thing by just waiting because you can access all content (except higher difficulties) in the gear you wait for. OP is saying that gear unlocking nothing but higher difficulties isn’t motivating enough.

[Aleksej89]

By making welfare epics and raids easily accessible blizzard has removed any sense of adventure and worthwhile progress.
Getting to kill some big boss (or even qualify to enter that raid zone) was a special thrill and something people gladly worked towards.

Now you get to see the LFR raid and kill the bosses and deck out in epics without even having to speak a word or read a single line about raid mechanics or class mechanics.
By making so much of gearing and raiding easily available Blizzard has completely devalued and disinterested players into participating and doing harder versions of organized raiding.

[justandulas]

Because people don't just care about gear? Imagine playing WoW and gear is your main drive, what a cuckfest.

There was a better time in wow, when you got gear so you can play and beat harder bosses. Kill them and your hafe another level to climb etc

That is removed now and gear is nothing but a shallow stat stick all around with multiple different tiers of each piece. Lazy design

And if people don’t care about gear, then let’s go ahead and take gear out of m+ and any raid not mythic. If people don’t care about gear who will it hurt?

[Sencha]

Blame catch-up mechanisms where everything becomes obsolete every patch. Not motivating.

[Brewhan]

gearing up in wow hasn't been meaningful since TBC. Don't worry classic will bring back the motivating feeling. For those who desire to go to that extreme of playing 10hrs a day.

[Jimmyw]

this happens rarely, but i fully agree with you.

that is exactly the problem they have with gearing up now.
If you dont raid there is no need.
Not many people raid anymore
=> low population.

This. I down right quit BFA. What a shame

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gearing up in wow hasn't been meaningful since TBC. Don't worry classic will bring back the motivating feeling. For those who desire to go to that extreme of playing 10hrs a day.

Dont need 10 hour Day to be relevant in classic. Unless u wanna be top 100 guild. It does requirr a lot more effort than BFA but not 10 hours. You can get by with 3-4 hours a Day easily.

[Deferionus]

I've been playing on and off since Wrath, I don't remember there ever being competitive gear rewards from random BGs.

Just wanted to point out that during Burning Crusade you got some pieces of your set from conquest points and others from arenas if I remember right. That was how blizzard rewarded people for doing bgs.

[Kokolums]

What damage has m+ done to the raiding sceen?

The damage is still in progress.

The most efficient gear path today is to wait around until m+ rewards improved loot, then spam m+ for a couple weeks and then jump into mythic.

A lot of players surprisingly don't know that is the most efficient path yet. But more do everyday, and it means the pool of raiders is still shrinking.

[Kumorii]

You literally just spelled it out and then like “but what damage did it do?”

People do m+ to get gear near instead of raid. Why commit to mythic raiding when pugging heroic and chain running weekly m+ will leave you just as geared at the end of the patch?

Raiding desperately needs not only higher ilvl gear, but unique gear that ONLY drops on heroic or mythic to set them apart.

Raiding already drops gear only obtainable in raids. No azerite pieces from raid can be accessed outside of it. No trinkets with the same flavors or items with unique effects can be obtained outside of the raid they are in.

And I for one do raid because I want to beat the raids on mythic. Gear helps me get there, not why I do it tho except if there is a MOG I like.

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The damage is still in progress.

The most efficient gear path today is to wait around until m+ rewards improved loot, then spam m+ for a couple weeks and then jump into mythic.

A lot of players surprisingly don't know that is the most efficient path yet. But more do everyday, and it means the pool of raiders is still shrinking.

They jump into mythic, which means the raiding pool didn't shrink. End number is the same except for a small duration.

[Zephire]

You literally just spelled it out and then like “but what damage did it do?”

People do m+ to get gear near instead of raid. Why commit to mythic raiding when pugging heroic and chain running weekly m+ will leave you just as geared at the end of the patch?

Raiding desperately needs not only higher ilvl gear, but unique gear that ONLY drops on heroic or mythic to set them apart.

I only see gear as a means to an end. It's overcomming mythic bosses with a group of 20 people that I find fun, or to push m+ high, or going for high PvP rating. Wherever I find a challenge or can make my own challenge is my gaming drive. That's my point of view. That's why I don't think I understand what your point is, why and how it has damaged raiding. I just want to understand better

The damage is still in progress.

The most efficient gear path today is to wait around until m+ rewards improved loot, then spam m+ for a couple weeks and then jump into mythic.

A lot of players surprisingly don't know that is the most efficient path yet. But more do everyday, and it means the pool of raiders is still shrinking.

Is that a bad thing? Do they really have to do LFR- > Normal -> Heroic raid first? I think the main issue is that raids have weekly long lockouts which means you get nothing from doing a raid a second time during the same reset. What does it matter if I spam m+ and then jump into mythic raiding?

[Gatto]

The real problem to me is that Blizzard allows equipment meant for specific encounters to be also used during encounters which won't need it.

For an instance:

Openworld is meant for everybody, but mostly for casual players who play openworld.

That said, ilvl power should be lowered ( an ilvl cap while openworld ) in order to have a cap for that game mode.
This will lead to a statement:

If you intend to play openworld as casual, you won't EVER need equipment with higher ilvl from other game modes

Same goes for m+
Higher ilvl should be meant for higher lvl instances, and not to stomp low lvl ones ( this also leads to a community unable to play if not overgeared. But I guess you happened to see what I am talking about in terms of LFR, Outdoor bosses with mechanics, or even low lvl m+ and normal/heroic raids, which let's be honest are EASY ).

Same goes with randombg, which should have a max ilvl which is the one from rewards.
Instead, we see people who only play rbg for fun get stomped by higher ilvl players ( and the scaling does not count ).

Today more than yesterday ( or I could say today more than 20 years ago ) people and developers started to forget that games are meant to have fun, and that to accept the mentality to login with the final goal of "better equipment" is definitely the wrong approach.

Players should feel the desire to login because they want to have fun.
Not because they have to take their characters up to date for a content which is always ongoing.

ps: LFR is something which should be there for players who want to enjoy the story, but 4 raid difficulties are way too much. Just merge normal into lfr, and leave HC and M.

[justandulas]

I only see gear as a means to an end. It's overcomming mythic bosses with a group of 20 people that I find fun, or to push m+ high, or going for high PvP rating. Wherever I find a challenge or can make my own challenge is my gaming drive. That's my point of view. That's why I don't think I understand what your point is, why and how it has damaged raiding. I just want to understand better

Players always take the path of least resistance. Always.

That’s all well and good about liking challenge, I’m with ya there; but when you can’t recruit for mythic raiding and all expac you hear “but why? I do m+ and pug heroic” and they have equal gear to mythic raiders by the end while commuting 1/10 the time... how can I argue?

I’m not an idiot I see what it’s doing. M+ is both a blessing and a curse to wow. It exists as both one of the best new pieces of content, and the death of raids simultaneously.

Go ahead and look at raid participation this expac since m+ got boosted to raid levels

[iosdeveloper]

As i say about movies: it's hard to impress me cuz i've already seen Naruto.
It's hard to make me chase new armor sets, why bother wasting time on ugly replaceable items, when i already have my shiny T6??

Transmog killed gear => whole game for me...
Back in vanilla i'd use a worse item if it looked cooler and nowadays i won't even bother transmogging new items, cuz no interest.
ps. it's gg for wow... new players say "couldn't finish trial, bored to death, cool graphics for 2019 lol"
can't blame them, btw


offtopic: i bought an e-bike, much more fun than current WoW