[Speculation] Sylvanas Endgame Finally revealed

[Sorshen]

Is the whole "undead are immune to old gods" thing even true?

For those that don't know, Blizzard is using 'undead can't be mind controlled' as a trope from Dungeons&Dragons - where undead creatures are immune to all mind-affecting magic and effects (they're usually classed under the enchantment/compulsion magic school), and are usually under the control of their creator up to a [level] times [X] limit. Going over the limit usually creates 'free-willed' undead (or they can be released by the creator). Warcraft's lovecraftian themes imply the compulsion kind of control.
D&D undead can be temporarily controlled by using some (necromancy class) spells by manipulating the negative energy that powers them.

[ojblade]

WTF? they let you defeat/kill Azshara? thats surprising,

[TigTone]

That was never stated. It's a wrong belief that has somehow been repeated without end by some people

Right, only thing they don’t like about undead is that they seek death of everything. All it is a dislike of the end goal of undead.
Old gods and voids want to consume not end everything.

[Maljinwo]

Right, only thing they don’t like about undead is that they seek death of everything. All it is a dislike of the end goal of undead.
Old gods and voids want to consume not end everything.

There have been undead serving the Twilight's hammer.
Old gods don't give a crap unless outright stated

[Foolicious]

I don't think the stormheim quests make any sense with any theory that is brought up.
If helya told sylvanas about N'zoth, why did she even make an effort to enslave eyir? Just to annoy Odyn?
If Helya wanted xal'atath all along, why didn't she already claimed it in legion?
Helya is powerful, but in no way she could have known that illidan opens a portal to argus, which leads to sargeras wounding azeroth, which then opens the chance for magni to be manipulated by azshara to bring her the heart of azeroth.
And what was sylvanas part of the bargain? Do we really think helya gifts sylvanas the power of an old god because shes generous?

Yes it might be true that sylvanas wants to use n'zoth like you described, but i don't think there is a satisfying way how blizzard can solve this.
Remember when they announced that the trial of valor patch will follow up and finish the stormheim questlines? It never did. The most likely explanation is that the original part was scrapped.

[vertigo12]

Is the whole "undead are immune to old gods" thing even true? We only inferred that from that from a (poorly drawn) comic iirc. Frankly, undeads can be controlled with necromancy, which makes them probably the easiest bitches to control in any fantasy setting ever, even my DK can literally do that (means there is old rune magic that does it). I see no reason why a being of shadow shouldn't be able to wield necromantic magic, at least in lore practioners usually utilize both magics. Our latest black smoke monster has also just casually resurrected our fishy hentai maiden, so the controll over life and death is certainly not beyond the inhabitants of the void.

Maybe the brainwashing - as in driving insane - shit does not work, but even then Sylvans' goons are apparently capable of thought and human emotion, they also can get scared, so I fail to see where her actual advantage is and why she and her minions should be immune. At this point it looks way more likely that the void whispers just egged on Alleria to get herself killed. Not to mention that Sylvanas was literally instrumental in releasing N'Zoth by luring us into Azshara's fangs.

This would be the epitome of evidences that void power can ressurect. Remember the void elf who tried ressurecting a TRex to turn against Zandalari.This is 1B times greater since it's N'Zoth doing it. I'm just wondering if N'Zoth was somehow involve in ressurecting the Pantheon as well or if they will try to do something like that in the future say, N'Zoth ressurecting Azeroth after her death...

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think the stormheim quests make any sense with any theory that is brought up.
If helya told sylvanas about N'zoth, why did she even make an effort to enslave eyir? Just to annoy Odyn?
If Helya wanted xal'atath all along, why didn't she already claimed it in legion?
Helya is powerful, but in no way she could have known that illidan opens a portal to argus, which leads to sargeras wounding azeroth, which then opens the chance for magni to be manipulated by azshara to bring her the heart of azeroth.
And what was sylvanas part of the bargain? Do we really think helya gifts sylvanas the power of an old god because shes generous?

Yes it might be true that sylvanas wants to use n'zoth like you described, but i don't think there is a satisfying way how blizzard can solve this.
Remember when they announced that the trial of valor patch will follow up and finish the stormheim questlines? It never did. The most likely explanation is that the original part was scrapped.

Helya aside from the presider of the underworld for Vrykul culture is also a seawitch. She has control over the seas similar to Azshara and perhaps she also knew where is N'Zoth prison which is at the depths of the ocean somewhere near Maelstrom. There is a quote that says Black Empire creatures return to Nyalotha the city of sleep then again Emerald Dream ,Rift of Aln and Nyalotha,Shadowlands could all be interconnected as if existing in one "elemental plane" and death could be the reference for sleeping. Malfurion was in a suspended animation or a timeless sleep similar to being dead during Vanilla.

Helya predates Azshara at her heights and was already the Valkyr Queen meaning the souls who died at open waters or coasts somehow ends up in her care.

She knew N'Zoth because the keepers battled with the Old gods before and the reason why these creatures got imprisoned.

Not only that Sylvanas might willing sacrifice herself and not just be a banshee queen but the queen of Valkyr herself and take over Helya's place as a keeper of the dead which ties up with master over death.

Helya's magic was used to imprison the Old gods and perhaps she will still be relevant when the Blades of the Black Empire becomes the new host or housing for N'Zoth with whatever ritual she has to perform. Perhaps this is what N'Zoth also wanted all along...

And like what the Ring of Reef item and quest says whichbis dropped randomly from Kvaldr theme IE. You cannot kill death.

[MikeBogina]

Sylvanas is gonna put N'zoth's soul into Xal'atath(blade) then insert it into the Gnome's Reverse Curse of Flesh machine and turn everyone into undead

[Nyel]

WTF? they let you defeat/kill Azshara? thats surprising,

Don’t worry, she’s alive after the raid. Well, maybe not alive but she’s definitely not dead.

[vertigo12]

Don’t worry, she’s alive after the raid. Well, maybe not alive but she’s definitely not dead.

It was merely a setback. It would be a definite thing that the heroes will report what happened to Sylvanas or Nathanos.

[huth]

Spoilers in title?

No, just a delusional fool. Take this about as serious as your usual Conspiracy Nut verbal... output.

[formerShandalay]

Is the whole "undead are immune to old gods" thing even true? We only inferred that from that from a (poorly drawn) comic iirc. Frankly, undeads can be controlled with necromancy, which makes them probably the easiest bitches to control in any fantasy setting ever, even my DK can literally do that (means there is old rune magic that does it). I see no reason why a being of shadow shouldn't be able to wield necromantic magic, at least in lore practioners usually utilize both magics. Our latest black smoke monster has also just casually resurrected our fishy hentai maiden, so the controll over life and death is certainly not beyond the inhabitants of the void.

Maybe the brainwashing - as in driving insane - shit does not work, but even then Sylvans' goons are apparently capable of thought and human emotion, they also can get scared, so I fail to see where her actual advantage is and why she and her minions should be immune. At this point it looks way more likely that the void whispers just egged on Alleria to get herself killed. Not to mention that Sylvanas was literally instrumental in releasing N'Zoth by luring us into Azshara's fangs.

It's not true. It only came up, because the void whispered frantically to Alleria about killing Sylvanas and then people remembered that the Scourge Undead were somehow quite immune to the mindcontrol from the Old Gods. Which is to be expected, because they're Scourge.. will of Sargeras and all that. But everybody seems to have forgotten that lots of Undead we saw in WoW have been created by the Old Gods or some of their ilk. So no, Undeath itself is not something the Old Gods fear. Maybe they fear Sylvanas, because she is a Scourge-created Undead too, but even then the whispers may have meant something completely different. N'Zoth whispers '..kill her. KILL HER!' all the time in Nazjatar and there's no Sylvanas around.

[Hittion]

That was never stated. It's a wrong belief that has somehow been repeated without end by some people

Wrath had a whole subplot about it with saronite.

The lore has been changed though and I don't know if the rules that apply to the scourge also apply to the forsaken in this regard.

[Maljinwo]

Wrath had a whole subplot about it with saronite.

The lore has been changed though and I don't know if the rules that apply to the scourge also apply to the forsaken in this regard.

The Scourge is bound to the will of the Lich King which is why the Saronite miners did not act upon the whispers. They were still affected by them.

There's even undead operating under the Twilight's Hammer banner such as Domina, Stasia Fallshadow and Willow

[vertigo12]

Wrath had a whole subplot about it with saronite.

The lore has been changed though and I don't know if the rules that apply to the scourge also apply to the forsaken in this regard.

There are different types of undead.
1)Converted by the plague
2) restless spirit killed during Sundering
3) Turned undead by the Lich King, who were also killed in the process.

1) mindless undead who are bound to the will of the helm of the dominator.
2) the Forsaken or those who are sentient and mind of their own and regained their free will. The first of which was Sylvanas. They prize freedom above all.
3) Others who willingly allied themselves to undeath or Lich King.

- - - Updated - - -

Even if that were true, then it would still depend on wording or even interpretation. The larger my army is the more powerfull I am, doesn't mean I suddenly get buff for every soldir.

Mass effect applies to the manifold control of the LK as written in chapter 18 of chronicles vol. 3.

[Vakir]

>Revealed
>Speculation

These things...don't quite work together.

[vertigo12]

>Revealed
>Speculation

These things...don't quite work together.

When you apply logic and deductive reasoning, how do you that?

- - - Updated - - -

We got 3 representative so far asuming Sylvanas will be the Avatar of Shadows.

Illidan Fel
Bolvar Undeath
Sylvanas Shadow
Arcane - If Jaina would ascend the role of Azshara and be the jailor of the depths.
Nature Malfurion might have a new identity to take over his role.
Light - Could be High King Anduin.

[Gadzooks]

Arthas LK (with Frostmourne, plate etc.) >>> Bolvar LK though


Bolvars only power is pretty much wearing the helm of damnation

This. They haven't done much with Bolvar, to show any power level, but to consider Sylvanas as equal to Arthas at his full power is laughable. She wishes she was - she depends now on creatures he made (Val'kyrs) to survive, and she can't make more of. The same Val'kyr that make undead - her faction - that she can't make on her own.

Her evil mustache twirling since Icecrown has mostly involved plots to be immortal, even though Afrasiabi has muddled that all up with this over-complicated plotting against Stormwind nonsense he has her doing now. Her machinations in Legion made sense, she wanted Eiyr to make more Val'kir for her, because of what would happen to the Forsaken if she were gone. Now? She probably has some plot to make N'zoth make something similar for her. She'll fail, and run off somewhere in Northrend with her remaining Val'kir and undead boytoy during the next expansion, until Afrasiabi runs out of ideas and hauls her corpse onto the stage again. (and there will be reams of awful undead hot lovin' fan fic from that creepy dev who writes Nathanos) And, they'll park Greymane for an expansion, on a "Hunt For Sylvanas" hand waving subplot in an Exciting! New! Novel! By! Christy! Golden! Buy! Now!.

No, I'm not cynical at all.

[GreenJesus]

Even if that were true, then it would still depend on wording or even interpretation. The larger my army is the more powerfull I am, doesn't mean I suddenly get buff for every soldir.

It doesn't really make sense though... you would think controlling more soldiers would weaken the remaining power he has left to use. Seems like a stupid retcon. If that was the case why did he let us tear through northrend? The strength of the scourge is throwing huge numbers at a foe. But if Lich king depends on them to increase his power then he can't just use those pawns Willy Nilly either.

[Cosmic Janitor]

It doesn't really make sense though... you would think controlling more soldiers would weaken the remaining power he has left to use. Seems like a stupid retcon. If that was the case why did he let us tear through northrend? The strength of the scourge is throwing huge numbers at a foe. But if Lich king depends on them to increase his power then he can't just use those pawns Willy Nilly either.

Depends on how it works and how you can use these undeads, do they function autonomously or are they treated like classical fantasy summons that require constant nourishment from the summoner. For example if you could off-load processing power to their largly unused brains or use them to store/channel mana then that would be a reason why you actually get stronger by having more. If you just have to micro manage every one of these and on top of it have to supply them with energy, then indeed, the lich king should get weaker with every single undead. But I agree, the most logical case is actually that you just raise them and they follow your commands and thats it though, as the implications otherwise would be huge.

[GreenJesus]

Depends on how it works and how you can use these undeads, do they function autonomously or are they treated like classical fantasy summons that require constant nourishment from the summoner. For example if you could off-load processing power to their largly unused brains or use them to store/channel mana then that would be a reason why you actually get stronger by having more. If you just have to micro manage every one of these and on top of it have to supply them with energy, then indeed, the lich king should get weaker with every single undead. But I agree, the most logical case is actually that you just raise them and they follow your commands and thats it though, as the implications otherwise would be huge.

The only way it makes sense is when Arthas had frostmourne and it got stronger for every soul added. However, that is vastly different than "number of undead under his control".

- - - Updated - - -

For those that don't know, Blizzard is using 'undead can't be mind controlled' as a trope from Dungeons&Dragons - where undead creatures are immune to all mind-affecting magic and effects (they're usually classed under the enchantment/compulsion magic school), and are usually under the control of their creator up to a [level] times [X] limit. Going over the limit usually creates 'free-willed' undead (or they can be released by the creator). Warcraft's lovecraftian themes imply the compulsion kind of control.
D&D undead can be temporarily controlled by using some (necromancy class) spells by manipulating the negative energy that powers them.

Man.. Tanner from high school would have a field day with this post. *clap* well nerded my friend!