Why are so many recruiting guilds going to use loot council?

[Mukind]

DKP is one of the least fair loot systems if every the slightest person with ill intentions appears. The entire system is incredibly susceptible to gouging, tiering, selective-roster, hoarding, etc.

That said, loot council is also a terrible system. Every guild has this weird idea that they need to give dps every and all items in order to succeed. That may be true of the top .01% of guilds, but it doesn't help if you're any lower than that. You'll get the same fight results no matter who you give the items to.

Loot council is also obviously weakened by favoritism, nepotism, class/spec stigma, sandbagging, poor preparedness on the side of the council, girlfriends/boyfriends, regearing, main swapping, etc.

Personal loot is the best decision Blizzard has made in the past decade, but I doubt it will ever come to Classic, so you'll be choking on whatever loot systems people decide to use. (Keep in mind that it's going to be awful, because every bathwater gamer boy is going to be playing the meta, so except raids to have 90% of four classes)

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What is loot council + dkp? Just the thought of it seems like 25% of your raid being afk for trash while they talk about which of their friends to give it to.

You miss the point of giving the loot to the best guy, it gives an incentive for others to do well and guarantee their spot in the pecking order.

Yea if we cleared it with pre bis we don't need to be decked out in MC gear to clear BWL. But we'd all play a lot sloppier and prep less if we just handed out loot as some participation token

DKP as everyone does it is just about attendance...Which means you have given your raid members no incentives to reach for the skill/prep ceiling

Anyone who has ever tried to manage anyone ever should know that's not going to end well.

[Chaelexi]

Put it this way DKP is socialism, even the mouth breathers get their loot. Loot council is Capitalism, the loot get put where you are most likely to gain more loot from it being there.

[Charge me Doctor]

Put it this way DKP is socialism, even the mouth breathers get their loot. Loot council is Capitalism, the loot get put where you are most likely to gain more loot from it being there.

It's actually the other way around, loot council is about keeping your raid balanced, so everyone gets gear. In case of DKP - the only one who gets gear is the one who have more DKP - literal capitalism - if you have more DKP - you have more gear - so you can earn more DKP

[The-loon]

We can debate the pluses and minuses of loot council vs dkp till we're blue in the ass but unless you are a hardcore pushing guild, loot council is unnecessary and very susceptible to drama. Although I would argue even lower end guilds would benefit from giving gear to the MT.

DKP is 100% fair. Time in, loot out. Is it the best system for bleeding edge progression? No. Do you need loot council if you are not a bleeding edge guild? No.

Of course it's their right if thats the direction they want to go. I just can't help but be a bit confused, i'm seeing alot of self decribed middle/low end guilds planning on loot council, which is baffling frankly.

The reason I personally dislike DKP in vanilla is because of which specific gear pieces have loot competition.

Let's take hunters for example. Arguably their tier gear is some of the best gear they can wear in MC and BWL. Due to the % chance of their specific tier pieces dropping and the amount of hunters a raid will carry you can argue that an item like Hunter T2 helm will go for a relatively small amount of DKP.

Comparatively fury warriors don’t use any tier gear until AQ40. Furthermore, a majority of the pieces they each need from raids overlap with rogues (and other specs if you take them like feral druids, ret paladins, enchantment shamans), so therefore we can assume that each of those pieces (which also have a lower drop chance % BTW) will go for higher amounts of DKP.

So you’re in BWL and Drake Fang Talisman drops; there is a great chance that all of the melee characters in your raid, who should be winning this item first, won’t win this because hunters have been winning gear uncontested for months and had the ability to stockpile DKP.

Loot Council in a perfect world is the best however you need to be careful that the LC isn’t corrupted. The guild I am in for example the officers and not part of the LC, to help deal with potential/future loot issues objectively.

[Chaelexi]

It's actually the other way around, loot council is about keeping your raid balanced, so everyone gets gear. In case of DKP - the only one who gets gear is the one who have more DKP - literal capitalism - if you have more DKP - you have more gear - so you can earn more DKP

Not really because in loot council people who do not preform should not get gear. DKP everyone gets gear as long as you are a warm body

[Charge me Doctor]

Not really because in loot council people who do not preform should not get gear. DKP everyone gets gear as long as you are a warm body

There is not much "performing" to do outside of gear, in loot council you won't see a rogue with perdition blade get AQ weapon token when there is another rogue with a.. i don't know, alterac dagger? With DKP you sure will see that kind of behaviour, but loot council usually cares about gearing up a raid, while with DKP system - every man is for himself

[HulkSmasher]

I'm not trusting enough, loot council is a deal-breaker for me when joining a guild. DKP isn't perfect, but overall I like it.

[Rendark]

As long as your raid leaders aren't assholes then loot council is the best way to do it.

[Chaelexi]

There is not much "performing" to do outside of gear, in loot council you won't see a rogue with perdition blade get AQ weapon token when there is another rogue with a.. i don't know, alterac dagger? With DKP you sure will see that kind of behaviour, but loot council usually cares about gearing up a raid, while with DKP system - every man is for himself

If the rogue with Alterac Dagger is dying to every mechanic he will not be getting that upgrade.

[clevin]

If the rogue with Alterac Dagger is dying to every mechanic he will not be getting that upgrade.

AGAIN... you don't use loot as a cudgel. If someone isn't good, step up, grow a spine and tell them that you're benching them if they don't improve. Denying them loot is just passive aggressive cowardice. Also, it only serves to increase the gap between people who are good and those who aren't AS good. Yeah, Bob Pro Raider is better than Johnny Average, but if you feed gear to Bob Pro, he's just going to seem even better, even if Johhny Average improves.

[Zensunni]

Loot council is the best way to do loot.

Good luck getting anyone to show up for their 12309102938th MC/BWL farm after they have all their gear without DKP to incentivize it.

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It's actually the other way around, loot council is about keeping your raid balanced, so everyone gets gear. In case of DKP - the only one who gets gear is the one who have more DKP - literal capitalism - if you have more DKP - you have more gear - so you can earn more DKP

It's pretty clear from your post that you do not know how DKP works.

[Rampant Rabbit]

Care to elaborate on why a low or mid tier guild would need to do this in classic, when dkp is much fairer and much less likely to cause drama?

Why would it cause drama when everyone involved accepts the fact that it's a loot council? It's the fairest and best way of ensuring that you will clear the raid instance as guild, and that you will farm the place. Farming the place means you will get decked, too.

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It's actually the other way around, loot council is about keeping your raid balanced, so everyone gets gear. In case of DKP - the only one who gets gear is the one who have more DKP - literal capitalism - if you have more DKP - you have more gear - so you can earn more DKP

More DKP =/= more gear. More total gained DKP doesn't even mean that.

You could get a bunch of items at minimum DKP spendings, where someone that has the most DKP isn't buying anything because he/she's saving up for an item.

[oplawlz]

Suicide Kings ftw :P

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Why would it cause drama when everyone involved accepts the fact that it's a loot council? It's the fairest and best way of ensuring that you will clear the raid instance as guild, and that you will farm the place. Farming the place means you will get decked, too.

I think the issue here is going to be that the community mentality isn't the same as it was when this content was fresh. I have my doubts that there will be many guilds who continue to farm raids after they're cleared, especially if there is some new hotness going in retail (which everyone playing classic has access to by default).

[erifwodahs]

It's actually the other way around, loot council is about keeping your raid balanced, so everyone gets gear. In case of DKP - the only one who gets gear is the one who have more DKP - literal capitalism - if you have more DKP - you have more gear - so you can earn more DKP

well, not, it's actually as he says abour LC, DKP is bit different. When LC is used properly, you invest loot into your best player so you gain more worth from them, than giving an item to Joey the Clicker , result is you kill more bosses because good players with gear result in more net gear, which is total capitalism for big scale company and shareholders. DKP is players investing into the raid and trying to gain something from it, while it is a gain for the player, it might be bad for the raid overall.

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AGAIN... you don't use loot as a cudgel. If someone isn't good, step up, grow a spine and tell them that you're benching them if they don't improve. Denying them loot is just passive aggressive cowardice. Also, it only serves to increase the gap between people who are good and those who aren't AS good. Yeah, Bob Pro Raider is better than Johnny Average, but if you feed gear to Bob Pro, he's just going to seem even better, even if Johhny Average improves.

that is why warcraft logs is amazing thing. You can check and compare people with similar gear. You can see what they are doing and if they are actually improving or if their apm is still 12 like it was 3months ago

[Unholyground]

I have seen all the systems and been part of them and DKP alone is not great because someone can and will troll others and it gets really annoying, loot council is favoritism more often than not. /roll is my favorite method, pure RNG is better than ego maniacs and assholes.

[anon5123]

We can debate the pluses and minuses of loot council vs dkp till we're blue in the ass but unless you are a hardcore pushing guild, loot council is unnecessary and very susceptible to drama. Although I would argue even lower end guilds would benefit from giving gear to the MT.

DKP is 100% fair. Time in, loot out. Is it the best system for bleeding edge progression? No. Do you need loot council if you are not a bleeding edge guild? No.

Of course it's their right if thats the direction they want to go. I just can't help but be a bit confused, i'm seeing alot of self decribed middle/low end guilds planning on loot council, which is baffling frankly.

DKP = loot goes to whoever stockpiled the most DKP

Loot Council = loot goes to whoever needs it the most / earned it through performance and attendance

I fail to see how DKP is "better for progression".

DKP is just "who has the most DKP", whereas Loot Council takes into account so many more factors: Attendance, Performance (DPS/HPS), Not fucking up mechanics, getting world buffs, getting consumes, how big of an upgrade it is, whether or not it's BiS for that class/spec, etc.

Loot Council allows for a much more complex decision, instead of "give loot to whoever showed up the most".

You might say "DKP rewards people for showing up", but Loot Council can do that too. Not difficult to keep a spreadsheet of who has attended raids, and use that to help make loot council decisions.

In a DKP guild, you can put in the bare minimum effort and still get rewarded with loot just because you showed up. In Loot Council, you have to really perform well and stand out to EARN your loot, instead of just winning it because you stockpiled the most attendance points.

Furthermore, DKP leads to situations where people DON'T bid on items they need, because they want to save DKP for something else. Or people intentionally bidding on things they don't want just to increase the price and force someone else to pay more DKP for it. DKP has so, so, SO much more potential for drama than Loot Council ever could. I was in a DKP guild for 2 years, I've seen it.

[clevin]

that is why warcraft logs is amazing thing. You can check and compare people with similar gear. You can see what they are doing and if they are actually improving or if their apm is still 12 like it was 3months ago

Yep. If people are bad and not improving then you can tell that... and the right thing to do is replace them. Not deny them loot.

Even if you have two people who play the same class and role, you can make one look worse by favoring the other with loot. Say you have two rogues, one is doing bit better DPS. Both are equally good at mechanics. If you give that rogue more loot they'll pull away, making the slightly worse rogue look even worse in comparison.

It's also tricky in this case... take the above scenario. Now complicate things... the first rogue is 10% better DPS but worse at mechanics. Not fail, but worse. How do you allot gear then?

I'll go back to my first post here - https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...0#post51385300

Here's what I'd do for each kind of raid:

1) Progression Mythic raids: Loot council with clear rules ('we gear DPS first, then tanks, then healers and here's how we decide to move from one to the other')

2) Guild raids that have mixed attendance: EPGP with decay. You want to reward people for coming regularly, esp during the learning phases so that people who are there are rewarded and people who did the wiping and learning get some advantage over the folks who show up for farm. Decay, so you can't hoard things. Possibly a cap, too.

3) Casual raids with trusted friends/guildies where you end up pugging more than rarely: Roll, MS > OS. Loot assignment doesn't matter as much here by the nature of the raid. You can cap this so if someone has a lucky streak they don't take 4 pieces in a night (so, highest roll that hasn't won anything that night, for MS).

More than these is, to me, overthinking things.

[Mukind]

Yep. If people are bad and not improving then you can tell that... and the right thing to do is replace them. Not deny them loot.

Even if you have two people who play the same class and role, you can make one look worse by favoring the other with loot. Say you have two rogues, one is doing bit better DPS. Both are equally good at mechanics. If you give that rogue more loot they'll pull away, making the slightly worse rogue look even worse in comparison.

It's also tricky in this case... take the above scenario. Now complicate things... the first rogue is 10% better DPS but worse at mechanics. Not fail, but worse. How do you allot gear then?

I'll go back to my first post here - https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...0#post51385300

How many times does this need to be said

No rational reading of logs doesn't account for loot lol

A loot council that doens't remember they gave a rogue 2 weapons and a full set isn't competent.

[anon5123]

Yep. If people are bad and not improving then you can tell that... and the right thing to do is replace them. Not deny them loot.

so you give them loot and then gkick them

Glad you're not a raid leader.

[In Ogres We Trust]

Suicide Kings ftw :P

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I think the issue here is going to be that the community mentality isn't the same as it was when this content was fresh. I have my doubts that there will be many guilds who continue to farm raids after they're cleared, especially if there is some new hotness going in retail (which everyone playing classic has access to by default).

Your average player in WoW: Classic could give two shits about the retail version of the game. Personally, I have no plans to return to the retail version, and if I'm being blunt, the IP has been ruined by the current crop of developers (the lore is in shambles, the game systems suck, etc.).