Did Garrosh ever do anything wrong?

[avitush]

Admittedly, I had forgotten those two bits. That said, I am still pretty certain neither of those events called for the tactical nuking of citizens. I mean, Garrosh had already chided and executed a Horde commander in Stonetalon for killing innocents. Yes, I am aware of the Alliance soldiers presence in on the byways into the Marsh and at Northwatch. But Theramore was home to a great number of innocent civilians. Bomb Northwatch? Sure... I can see that. Raze the byway into the Marsh... strategically makes sense. But nothing that had been done by any comparison warranted Theramore being nuked into oblivion.

Yep. There are also a bunch of Theramore citizens that can be seen chained up outside Orgrimmar's gates during Siege of Orgrimmar. Some are dead in cages, some are impaled on spikes, and some are alive but chained up (I'm not sure if Horde players see that, but Alliance players definitely do). And those were just Theramore citizens, not military. So the "well, it was a legit military target, civilians die by accident sometimes, shit happens" argument doesn't really even work there. The Horde captured these people, chained them up, and had fun with them. And Garrosh had to be 100% okay with that (unless he just wasn't aware that it was going on at the front gates of his own city, which is a hell of a stretch).

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Theramore_Citizen

iirc, there was also group of orcs going through Theramore's ruins looking for survivors/loot after the bombing, and they came across Jaina. They didn't know who she was and thought they were going to have some fun with her. They learned (the hard way) who she was shortly after encountering her.

[Aucald]

Because twitter said only the minority support him despite in-game we never see this :P

Now in a more serious note, his lacks of experience was the thing that doom him to commit decisions that other leaders would had avoided but even so he was literally about to win the war according to Wrathion, so we can't say he was a total failure.

Given the basic resumption of the status quo insofar as Orgrimmar and the Orcs are during Vol'jin's tenure, we kind of do.

Garrosh had the edge in the war until his antics caused his coalition within the Horde to fracture, turning his own people against him. This was the reason why Wrathion but his support behind Varian and the Alliance in the end - specifically "I thought Hellscream's victory was assured before he turned half his Horde against him. So I changed my allegiance."

- - - Updated - - -

A schism doesn't mean Garrosh wasn't going by his race's standards, especially when there were plenty of orcs who still followed him willingly. Their race settles disagreements with battle and blood, clans hunted each other on Draenor. If Garrosh or Thrall's set of orcs were to wipe the other out in a battle for power/leadership, that'd be entirely the norm for their race.

So imo, yes he hasn't done anything against his own people's standards. Thrall's opinions and ideals are not reflective of his race or its history.

That is pretty much what a schism is, if you ask me - there were many orcs who followed him willingly, and still more who did not. The fact that he couldn't maintain the loyalty of his own people speaks a good deal to his many failures. The Draenor clans also didn't really war with one another as a matter of course, at least not before the rise of the Horde and their corruption by the Legion - there were occasional disagreements, but they didn't prey on one another regularly.

Thrall's opinions and ideals were mostly given to him by Drek'thar, who remembered the way of the life of the Orcs before their corruption and the rise of the Old Horde, and guided him in re-embracing the Shamanistic heritage of the Orcish clans. We see what the Draenor clans were like prior to their corruption in both "Rise of the Horde" and "Chronicle Vol. 2," and Thrall is ideologically closer to it than Garrosh himself ever was. It's worth noting that Garrosh grew up on Outland in a plague quarantine village inhabited by Orcs of many clans, and he never knew anything of the Orcs' social structure, heritage, or hierarchy prior to their reformation into the Horde. So, like Thrall, he is just as distant from the heritage of the Orcs as Thrall himself was (and appeared to lack the relationship with a role-model type figure).

[1know]

Ya, he lost.

[Gann Stonespire]

Given the basic resumption of the status quo insofar as Orgrimmar and the Orcs are during Vol'jin's tenure, we kind of do.

Most of the Orc NPCs in the Siege of Orgrimmar sided with Garrosh.

The Draenor clans also didn't really war with one another as a matter of course, at least not before the rise of the Horde and their corruption by the Legion - there were occasional disagreements, but they didn't prey on one another regularly.

Thrall's opinions and ideals were mostly given to him by Drek'thar, who remembered the way of the life of the Orcs before their corruption and the rise of the Old Horde, and guided him in re-embracing the Shamanistic heritage of the Orcish clans. We see what the Draenor clans were like prior to their corruption in both "Rise of the Horde" and "Chronicle Vol. 2," and Thrall is ideologically closer to it than Garrosh himself ever was. It's worth noting that Garrosh grew up on Outland in a plague quarantine village inhabited by Orcs of many clans, and he never knew anything of the Orcs' social structure, heritage, or hierarchy prior to their reformation into the Horde. So, like Thrall, he is just as distant from the heritage of the Orcs as Thrall himself was (and appeared to lack the relationship with a role-model type figure).

What are you talking about? Chronicles paints the uncorrupted orcs before the Legion in a worst light then ever before, mentioning they only let the Draenei due to lacking the man power and committed the worst atrocities long before the Legion arrived.

While another retcon, Chronicles definitely painted orcs as far more like MOP!Garrosh then Thrall.

[Wildberry]

And no. The Night Elves had already struck a deal to allow the Horde to harvest lumber. He didn't honour it one iota. His "expansionist" strategies were for one thing and one thing only... to serve the orcs. The rest of the Horde was cannon fodder.

This is wrong. The Night Elves had severed trade with the Horde following the Wrathgate. Durotar, which was already described as "barren" and it's people "starving" when trade was established, not only had to deal with necessary trade being severed, but droughts & famine as a result of the elemental unrest.

It took Hamuul, working under the table with Thrall's blessing, months to get an initial meeting about restoring trade & hunting rights in Ashenvale. Even putting aside the fact that the meeting was sabotaged, the Horde was starving and simply didn't have that kind of time.

[qwerty123456]

Did you forget the way thunderbluffs shaman/druid discussed water shortage solutions? It's very much in their power to simply bring forth fresh water on command, they chose not to largely due to concerns over balance of nature business.... a thing more Korkron alligned shaman basically didn't care at all about.

As for pale orcs.... that wasn't a result of 'industrial growth' and affects on fertility are something largely outside the realm of canon since the game barely covers it at all except for very specific cases.

Again. I will remind you that all problems concerning pollution can and are handled by the slogan "Magic user fixes it"

No clean water? Mage/shaman/druid shits it out.

We actually need this source cleansed? MAgic user does ritual and purifies the thing.

But the t... Doesn't matter, with a little bit of [insert random items] and some words of power and a flick of the wrist the problem isn't the problem.

Yes, pollution is a terrible thing and can fundamentally alter the land for decades or wait even millenia to come.... until the magic user gets off their ass and magics everything back to right. Magic is just that broken.... case in point, indirect exposure to void energy causes Orcs to shrivel up and gain light sensitivity (actual reasoning for pale orcs)

1. Magic doesn't fix everything. Otherwise we wouldn't need to deal with the Old Gods or any other evil the Titans could have dealt with.

2. I use pale orcs as an example of a sickly looking orc not as this is a pollution thing.

3. Do you know how long it takes druids and shit to heal stuff? And how many you need? And how many would have continued to side with Garrosh? WE already know most the orcs sided with the rebels. How many druids/mages/shamans would have survived his cleansing of Azeroth?

4. In Game mechanics doesn't equal lore. You may think a mage could just portal around fixing shit in five seconds but lorewise that shit doesn't happen.

[Aucald]

Most of the Orc NPCs in the Siege of Orgrimmar sided with Garrosh.

Well, yes, because Garrosh's True Horde forces had taken and secured Orgrimmar against their detractors and enemies - when you first break into Orgrimmar proper you find the True Horde gang-pressing other Orcs into service.

What are you talking about? Chronicles paints the uncorrupted orcs before the Legion in a worst light then ever before, mentioning they only let the Draenei due to lacking the man power and committed the worst atrocities long before the Legion arrived.

While another retcon, Chronicles definitely painted orcs as far more like MOP!Garrosh then Thrall.

It does? I don't recall any of that in "Chronicle Vol. 2" so you're going to have to cite a specific source on that. The only atrocity the Orcish clans commit in "Chronicle Vol. 2" is the destruction of Goria, mitigated by the fact that the Gorian Ogres and Imperator Molok had already attempted to wrest Shamanism by force and had indulged in biological warfare by creating the Red Pox using the Curse of Sethe. The Orcs and the Draenei lived peaceably enough - they were distant with one another but not hostile at all, at least until the coming of Gul'dan and the Legion. Are you thinking of the alternative events in WoD, by chance?

[Gann Stonespire]

Well, yes, because Garrosh's True Horde forces had taken and secured Orgrimmar against their detractors and enemies - when you first break into Orgrimmar proper you find the True Horde gang-pressing other Orcs into service.

No, the rebellion was orc free and Garrosh's forces were composed of NPCs, quest givers and class trainers the player had worked with since Classic.

It does? I don't recall any of that in "Chronicle Vol. 2" so you're going to have to cite a specific source on that. The only atrocity the Orcish clans commit in "Chronicle Vol. 2" is the destruction of Goria, mitigated by the fact that the Gorian Ogres and Imperator Molok had already attempted to wrest Shamanism by force and had indulged in biological warfare by creating the Red Pox using the Curse of Sethe. The Orcs and the Draenei lived peaceably enough - they were distant with one another but not hostile at all, at least until the coming of Gul'dan and the Legion. Are you thinking of the alternative events in WoD, by chance?

Thats not true at all, the orcs regularly attacked Draenei caravans, burnt the corpses whilst the Bladewind clan regularly captured the survivors to sell into slavery to the other clans, described as a fate worse then death.

Read about it here.


Ironically Bladewind Clan first appeared in Rise of the Horde where Ner'zhul mentions them as one of the clans along with the Frostwolf and Redwalker to oppose his commands of making war against the Draenei.

Guess Chronicles writers had to appease those whiny Alliance players with their "Daelin was right" memes.

[mickybrighteyes]

1. Magic doesn't fix everything. Otherwise we wouldn't need to deal with the Old Gods or any other evil the Titans could have dealt with.

Magic literally fixes everything until an even bigger magic gets in the way... the extra dimensional elder lords of teh great void would likely fall into 'bigger magic' category.

2. I use pale orcs as an example of a sickly looking orc not as this is a pollution thing.

Still Pale Orcs are a thing and a wizard did that bullshit. long term effects of something are up in the air regardless.

3. Do you know how long it takes druids and shit to heal stuff? And how many you need? And how many would have continued to side with Garrosh? WE already know most the orcs sided with the rebels. How many druids/mages/shamans would have survived his cleansing of Azeroth?

Really? Baine slammed a body of water into existence with a single strike of his hammer... and he's not a shaman/druid. wringing water from the air isn't exactly beyond simple cantrips. The duration required or scale is subject to the author's whims however.

4. In Game mechanics doesn't equal lore. You may think a mage could just portal around fixing shit in five seconds but lorewise that shit doesn't happen.

This is also something that various stories bring up or is part of side quest lore. The same story that pointed out Orgrimmar's need for importing water had background characters discussing diverting existing ground water sources.

Also such infested regions as lordaeron are undergoing cleansing and experienced groups maintaining the purity through various sources.

Note I didn't say how long it takes to fix said problems, I said it could fix just abnuot anything.

[Aucald]

No, the rebellion was orc free and Garrosh's forces were composed of NPCs, quest givers and class trainers the player had worked with since Classic.

Overseer Mojka was the NPC gang-pressing Orcs into unwilling service for the True Horde, and dealing with her and freeing her prisoners is part and parcel of the Rescue Raiders achievement in SoO. Orcish vendors in the Cleft of Shadow also turned evidence against Garrosh and his brutal occupation of Orgrimmar during that time, as shown in "War Crimes."

Thats not true at all, the orcs regularly attacked Draenei caravans, burnt the corpses whilst the Bladewind clan regularly captured the survivors to sell into slavery to the other clans, described as a fate worse then death.

Read about it here.

One small clan of Orcs demurred with the consensus to leave the Draenei be, yes; but that is hardly tantamount to the Orcs in general warring with the Draenei. The Bladewind were also grievously outnumbered and lucky that Velen held his forces back to ensure they were not annihilated by the Draenei outright. And still, as shown in your own source, the worst of the Bladewind Clan's excesses were caused by Gul'dan's meddling.

Ironically Bladewind Clan first appeared in Rise of the Horde where Ner'zhul mentions them as one of the clans along with the Frostwolf and Redwalker to oppose his commands of making war against the Draenei.

Guess Chronicles writers had to appease those whiny Alliance players with their "Daelin was right" memes.

Their reticence to fight the Draenei again is probably a combination of both their grudging respect for them (as shown in your own source) as well as the result of Maraad's attack upon the clan in vengeance for the actions that had previously been exhorted by Gul'dan.

[javierdsv]

If most of the people under your command are unhappy, then you are doing everything wrong.

[Jastall]

A schism doesn't mean Garrosh wasn't going by his race's standards, especially when there were plenty of orcs who still followed him willingly. Their race settles disagreements with battle and blood, clans hunted each other on Draenor. If Garrosh or Thrall's set of orcs were to wipe the other out in a battle for power/leadership, that'd be entirely the norm for their race.

So imo, yes he hasn't done anything against his own people's standards. Thrall's opinions and ideals are not reflective of his race or its history.

I mean that's a hard line of argumentation to follow. A ''majority'' of Orcs didn't oppose him because they thought conflict with other Orcs was awesome, but because Garrosh had methodically worked to undermine the Horde's unity. It's telling that events like Theramore don't cause too much strife that we see (indeed Taurens are seen celebrating alongside Orcs post-facto) but ordering Vol'jin's death and occupying the Echo Isles triggers an outright uprising a patch later.

And I don't remember many wars of extermination between clans on Draenor. Strife and raid for scant resources, certainly, but before the rise of the Horde the Orcs weren't much in a position to wage warfare on that scale.

[Gann Stonespire]

Overseer Mojka was the NPC gang-pressing Orcs into unwilling service for the True Horde, and dealing with her and freeing her prisoners is part and parcel of the Rescue Raiders achievement in SoO. Orcish vendors in the Cleft of Shadow also turned evidence against Garrosh and his brutal occupation of Orgrimmar during that time, as shown in "War Crimes."

Oh yeah, some vendors sided with the rebellion when everyone in the Kor'kron and most of the class trainers and trainers sided with Garrosh...yay..

One small clan of Orcs demurred with the consensus to leave the Draenei be, yes;

That clan formerly was heroic, but was made evil to appease Alliance whining. You're really not helping your case here by pointing to a clan that was turned into evil strawmen to make orcs worse..

The whole subject was discussed here.

By making a clan that was in prior lore, sympathetic to the Draenei, regularly engage in unprovoked attacks and sex trafficking, which the other orcs just watched on the side without helping the Draenei, undeniably makes orcs as a whole look worse.

Chronicles exists to give ammo to the "Daelin was right" crowd.

but that is hardly tantamount to the Orcs in general warring with the Draenei. The Bladewind were also grievously outnumbered and lucky that Velen held his forces back to ensure they were not annihilated by the Draenei outright.

The Draenei slaves were used by orcs as a whole in the passage.

And still, as shown in your own source, the worst of the Bladewind Clan's excesses were caused by Gul'dan's meddling.

Incorrect, it states the slavery happened before Gul'dan. It specifically states the slavery was a fate worse then death for the Draenei and that they were raped..

Their reticence to fight the Draenei again is probably a combination of both their grudging respect for them (as shown in your own source) as well as the result of Maraad's attack upon the clan in vengeance for the actions that had previously been exhorted by Gul'dan.

Incorrect as well, Rise of the Horde has them oppose Ner'zhul's conspiracy theories on moral grounds, sympathizing with Durotan. Chronicles characterizes them as evil rapist/slaver brutes because there can't be any good orc clans.

[Seylene]

I mean he wasn't exactly "Wrong" but he was stupid. He invaded Ashenvale forcing Theramore to honor its treaties thus putting the actual War back in which he was also alienating his allies and overextending his forces via some thrown together manifest destiny. The sad part is he could have been a very interesting character and molded into a decent foil for Varian. But his whole angle just felt utterly rushed. Not that I overall care as I detest most of the Horde story but objectively Garrosh really could have been something special. Even if for us on the Alliance to fight against.

[Combatbutler]

He had very bad social skills, was incredible arrogant, sucked at diplomacy and on top of that alienated his allies, which eventually caused his downfall.

Those are his main mistakes.

[Aucald]

Oh yeah, some vendors sided with the rebellion when everyone in the Kor'kron and most of the class trainers and trainers sided with Garrosh...yay..

Does the class or role of the Orcs in question actually matter to the larger point being made?

That clan formerly was heroic, but was made evil to appease Alliance whining. You're really not helping your case here by pointing to a clan that was turned into evil strawmen to make orcs worse..

Given that the Bladewind were never part of my case and were long defunct before Garrosh rose to power is also immaterial to what's being discussed in this thread. I just addressed the point you were making for some reason.

By making a clan that was in prior lore, sympathetic to the Draenei, regularly engage in unprovoked attacks and sex trafficking, which the other orcs just watched on the side without helping the Draenei, undeniably makes orcs as a whole look worse.

Chronicles exists to give ammo to the "Daelin was right" crowd.

The Orcs are not now and never were a monolith - we can only speak of generalities and consensus, but outliers and exceptions will always exist. The "Chronicle" series was made to create a cohesive and central reference point for the game's narrative - I highly doubt any conspiracy-laden thought really figured into its making. One Orcish clan portrayed in an unsavory light doesn't really change anything of substance about the Orcs as a people (for better or worse).

Incorrect, it states the slavery happened before Gul'dan. It specifically states the slavery was a fate worse then death for the Draenei and that they were raped..

I said the worst of their excesses, not *all* their excesses.

Incorrect as well, Rise of the Horde has them oppose Ner'zhul's conspiracy theories on moral grounds, sympathizing with Durotan. Chronicles characterizes them as evil rapist/slaver brutes because there can't be any good orc clans.

Your own source invalidates your point - and there are both good Orcs and good Orcish clans. The Frostwolves, the Redwalkers, and the Whiteclaws all opposed Ner'zhul's call for war on the Draenei as well as the adoption of Warlock magic. Good-aligned Orcs hail from the other clans as well. Eitrigg, Ariok, and Varok Saurfang are Blackrock Orcs, as was Saurfang's son Dranosh. Rulkan is also shown to a good person, hailing from the Shadowmoon Clan. I don't think the Orcs are anywhere near as skewed as you're portraying here.

[Gann Stonespire]

Does the class or role of the Orcs in question actually matter to the larger point being made?

Some civilians siding with the rebellion doesn't change the fact that the whole Siege of Orgrimmar depicted most orcs as siding with Garrosh, even Saurfang's own subordinates.

Given that the Bladewind were never part of my case and were long defunct before Garrosh rose to power is also immaterial to what's being discussed in this thread. I just addressed the point you were making for some reason.

Its relevant to Chronicles making the orcs more like MOP!Garrosh.

The Orcs are not now and never were a monolith - we can only speak of generalities and consensus, but outliers and exceptions will always exist. The "Chronicle" series was made to create a cohesive and central reference point for the game's narrative - I highly doubt any conspiracy-laden thought really figured into its making. One Orcish clan portrayed in an unsavory light doesn't really change anything of substance about the Orcs as a people (for better or worse).

The other orc clans weren't put in a good light either and one of the few clans mentioned to oppose the Draenei Genocide, being changed to gleeful participants and creators of atrocities very much puts orcs in a more negative light.

I said the worst of their excesses, not *all* their excesses.

How is slavery "worse then death" not one of their worst of their excesses? And again all of this is stuff Chronicles added that wasn't there before.

Your own source invalidates your point - and there are both good Orcs and good Orcish clans. The Frostwolves, the Redwalkers, and the Whiteclaws all opposed Ner'zhul's call for war on the Draenei as well as the adoption of Warlock magic. Good-aligned Orcs hail from the other clans as well. Eitrigg, Ariok, and Varok Saurfang are Blackrock Orcs, as was Saurfang's son Dranosh. Rulkan is also shown to a good person, hailing from the Shadowmoon Clan. I don't think the Orcs are anywhere near as skewed as you're portraying here.

It doesn't invalidate it, here's what the section says.

“What happened with the Frostwolf chieftain troubles me,” Kil’jaeden continued. “Not least because he is not the only one who has murmured against what is happening. There are others—the one who wields the Doomhammer, some among the Bladewind and Redwalker clans as well. It would be one thing if these opposing voices belonged to those of no consequence, but many of them do not. There must be no risk to the success of my plan. Therefore, I will guarantee their obedience.

Basically Bladewind was one of the clans that opposed the Draenei genocide in Rise of the Horde.

Contrast this with Chronicles Volume 2 where Gul'dan enlists the Bladewind clan to help incite the race war between Draenei and Orcs.

[therealbowser]

Alternate question: Did Garrosh ever do anything right?

No, no he did not. Just like Thrall lately, every single decision Garrosh ever made turned out to be the wrong one to make. At least Thrall had good intentions with his mistakes, but Garrosh is just an idiot and who knows what Blizzard was trying to write him into. His personality drastically changed every expansion...

[prwraith]

I think you mean BFA Sylvanas. Garry's motivation is pretty transparent. Whatever's good for orcs to the exclusion of those who oppose it.

I think they're both pretty guilty of being entirely lacking in depth tbh.

I don't think the horde is against an expansionist leader, I think they're against an expansionist leader who has no point. Like for what reason was garrosh expanding? Did orgrimmar lack resources? Same with sylvanas, she has as of yet 0 motivation.

The ultimate villain of wow isn't the old gods or the void lords, it's the writers haha.

[Aucald]

Some civilians siding with the rebellion doesn't change the fact that the whole Siege of Orgrimmar depicted most orcs as siding with Garrosh, even Saurfang's own subordinates.

The Siege of Orgrimmar was an invasion of the True Horde's stronghold, so yes, most of the Orcs within Ogrimmar as this point were Garrosh's loyalists and sycophants. Those not loyal to Garrosh had already left or had been pressed into service (as shown previously). As for notable Orcs, aside from Zaela, Nazgrim, and Malkorok, the rest threw their support behind Vol'jin. Thrall, Eitrigg, Saurfang, Rehgar, Drek'thar, Draka, and Ariok all support the insurrection.

The other orc clans weren't put in a good light either and one of the few clans mentioned to oppose the Draenei Genocide, being changed to gleeful participants and creators of atrocities very much puts orcs in a more negative light.

I don't think so - one bad apple doesn't really spoil the bunch.

How is slavery "worse then death" not one of their worst of their excesses? And again all of this is stuff Chronicles added that wasn't there before.

Ritually torturing and slaughtering all their prisoners to appease the Elements (driven out of whack by Gul'dan and the Legion's doings) would be the worst of their excesses in my view. They weren't great before Gul'dan got his hooks into them, Gul'dan just made it worse.

It doesn't invalidate it, here's what the section says.

“What happened with the Frostwolf chieftain troubles me,” Kil’jaeden continued. “Not least because he is not the only one who has murmured against what is happening. There are others—the one who wields the Doomhammer, some among the Bladewind and Redwalker clans as well. It would be one thing if these opposing voices belonged to those of no consequence, but many of them do not. There must be no risk to the success of my plan. Therefore, I will guarantee their obedience.

Basically Bladewind was one of the clans that opposed the Draenei genocide in Rise of the Horde.

Contrast this with Chronicles Volume 2 where Gul'dan enlists the Bladewind clan to help incite the race war between Draenei and Orcs.

Yes, and? Gul'dan used the existing animosity between the Bladewind and Draenei (which prior to his manipulations was still minor in the Draenei's eyes) to create an incident to supposedly highlight how bad the Draenei actually were. It's quite possible some in the remaining Bladewinds (and we know some of them, such as Garona, survived Gul'dan attempts to annihilate them) saw how they were manipulated and spoke out against Gul'dan and the war because of it. This isn't some kind of massive retcon or unexplainable circumstance.