Did blizz achieved the impossible.

[Eazy]

Im 3/8M atm.
This is the assa rogue rotation: press garotte and rupture every ~30sec, in the meantime spam mutilate and envenom. Yes 2 buttons, a monkey could do that even under pressure. All classes follow a similar trend atm, as seen from the massive amount of threads about shitty class design in BfA.

Show me on the bar how it feels being destroyed by assa rogues in the DPS tab and saying such a bullshit about their rotation on the forums:


And if you are that rogue, then show me the logs or just stop spreading lies, acting like an idiot.

sounds like you might be shit mate, i would love to see a video of you doing good dps on ANY mythic boss by pressing nothing but garrot, rupture, mutilate, and envenom an ENTIRE FIGHT.

He didn't even shown his logs/raider.io. Typical MMO-Champ clown.

I mean, not to spoil your party but .. that's basically what your screenshot says...
And yeah, Blizzard went a bit too far with the class mechanic homogenization. The problem isn't necessarily that there are "easy specs" - the problem is that the performance ceiling and complexity variation between specs has "disappeared". There are no "quirky", challenging class mechanics that are rewarded by performance boosts anymore. The difference is in class utility (so for example, Rogues > Feral always)

First thing - that's a false, because rogues have to check out their other CDs, such as Vendetta, Toxic blade, Vanish etc.
Second - rogues are not warriors/dks/rets/dh. Combo points and energy management make them harder to play compared to the other classes(most of them).

[Akka]

almost like the game was more then just raiding?

Precisely, and that means that raids could be less available and act as a long-term goal and the game still was interesting. So kinda prove the opposite of what you said : it worked.

and again people raided, but it was not enough for them to see making raids as worth while, something they werre thinking of just right out cutting...

That's an accountant approach, not a designer one. If raids act as the final goal and as such give a context in which people are motivated to play and find their progression worthwhile, they make the game more fun and better even if people don't clear them all.
We have all seen how the game went when they decided to shoehorn everyone into raids to make their statistics look better, and how the "didn't work" from before actually look quite more healthy than the "does work" of today.

[M1r4g3]

Show me on the bar how it feels being destroyed by assa rogues in the DPS tab and saying such a bullshit about their rotation on the forums:


And if you are that rogue, then show me the logs or just stop spreading lies, acting like an idiot.



He didn't even shown his logs/raider.io. Typical MMO-Champ clown.



First thing - that's a false, because rogues have to check out their other CDs, such as Vendetta, Toxic blade, Vanish etc.
Second - rogues are not warriors/dks/rets/dh. Combo points and energy management make them harder to play compared to the other classes(most of them).

Except its not false, you use all of those things on cd meaning you don't have to think about it, except toxic blade which you would hold on to if vendetta/vanish are coming off cd. Energy/cp managment xD like what? not using mutilate on 4 cps cause you're going to overcap? WOAH SICK!
Maybe you should practice some more, clearly you cant judge the class objectively

[Kuntantee]

There should be no raids. Just tons of more quests.

Are you being sarcastic? Modern WoW's content is all about boring and uninspired quests. You want more of that? If anything, the developers need to abandon this design.

[Newname1234567890]

There should be only 1 raid mode. And it should be damn hard. Either you can do it or you can't. If you can't go do the truckload of other content that WoW has.

Wow always places important lore moments in raids. So no

[IBZ]

Is there actually any classes left where resource pooling is still a thing? I think most of them have been changed to exactly opposite.

Fire mage has to pool fireblast before combustion or mage who use rune of power has to timing for CD

[Sanguinerd]

Man i wish it was still a mmorpg i had so much fun before blizzard decided to put all the focus on raiding/timed crap.
Also its not about being competitive, its about being able to carry people, which is a good thing and makes for a less toxic environment for everyone.

Agreed. It's World of Simcraft now.

Addons to tell you; do this, stand here, run there, press that, equip this and spec that.

[Casperite]

Must be why it went from 0 to "most subscription ever seen in a MMO and far above today". Obviously it didn't work

You fail to take into account the games age. I guarantee you if they never changed anything from vanilla and BC they would have lost more subs faster. But sure, let's all pretend a 15 year old game could retain the same amount of players if they only did what you want them to do, and produce content that excludes 90% or more of the playerbase.

[Yes but actually no]

While I generally agree with your premise that classes are too dumbed down, I can't agree with your reasoning how you can't get better at your class. A simple glance at any logsite will show you that you can be better or worse pressing those few buttons -- according to your reasoning, everyone should have rank 1 parses, which is obviously not true. There's just different things you have to pay attention to now.

A prime example i always give people who say everyone should have similar parses if classes are so dumbed down:

Look at WoD, brackenspore, kilrogg, if you are doing the dmg buff mechanics you will parse ridiculously higher than the rest of people at same skill/gear levels who are not doing said mechanics; equally you will parse much higher by achieving better rng proc rates and NOT being targeted by certain boss mechanics or even having the ability to completely ignore fight mechanics (that don't give passive dmg buffs) to just dps.

YOUR dps is not fully being controlled by YOU, if we could put a number to skill levels and say a 10/10 player was in a raid with 7/10 players even though the 10/10 is playing absolute perfection he would still do less dps (often significantly) than a 7/10 player of the same class and gear who was in a raid with 10/10 players simply due to the time to kill times. The faster the boss dies, the higher your dps and parse will be.
The legendary ring is prime example of this, every single rank 1 parse in HFC was arcane ring cheese showing dps done during lust and 10+ arcane mages, your lust and cd stacking dps inflate your dps parses, the longer the fight takes to kill the lower this inflation is which is what gives such variations in peoples parses, you could have a bot play the exact same with the same gear every week and it's parses would still all be different because of the external factors from people in your raid dying, lack of procs, being targeted by boss mechanics more often etc etc.

Also lets not forget, when comparing parses no one will have the exact same gear, not will the rest of their respective raids, gonna be pretty likely a 415 class is going to do a lot more dps in a raid of 430+ players than a 415 player in a raid with everyone else 415 as well.

People need to understand that on the face of it parses are not the be all and end all of how someone performs in a raid, there are several external factors out of the players control that offer a rather significant difference, few years back it used to be pretty frustrating in recruitment when some people would constantly just shove logs in my face like "he parses high on all these fights so he should be decent" but you actually look into the logs and he's actually pretty terrible at the basics but just has good dps inflation on logs from high proc uptimes and shorter time to kills.

His example of pressing 2 buttons is pretty spot on for a lot of classes, maybe not quite 2 but some are 3, some are 4 but how many actually press more than 5 buttons regularly in their rotation?

[Piesor]

This could be only me... but hear this out

My ilvl is about 435 currently, I have yet to step foot into H AEP. I've gotten most of them from M+ and cache.

In terms of gears, there isn't really anything that I need from AEP except for specific trinkets/weapon.
There is no motivation in term of gears for me to play H AEP.... except.... to experience the content and the fights.

Right now, Im raiding because I want to. Not because it drop higher ilvl gears.

I wonder if the age old question have been answered "Would you raid if there is no reward?"

Maybe Blizz is slow shifting into this new paradigm where they want players to raid because they want to, not because of rewards.

Im' not sure but I am definitely in that camp

Well, lucky you. Despite stopping m+ and raiding ~2months ago for 8.1.5 I started into 8.2 with 418ilvl with almost perfect secondary stats distribution.
Thanks to mighty RNG I am at 421 now after getting some minor upgrades through Mechagon Junkyard and receiving bracers only with crap scnd stats in both m+ weekly chests and hc warfront and zero items @ new worldbosses (incl. extra rolls). Needless to say that the only benthic gear I fully upgraded so far were bracers too.
Was not able to receive the lucky benthic roll for the boots I want that were worthy to upgrade too.

Overall I like that the itemlvl does have such a huge gap. On the other hand rng is more frustrating now because it feels that real upgrades are harder to get. Additionally it feels like the percentages for warforging and titanforging are lower than in 8.1.5.. But perhaps I am just unlucky.

However I do not care anymore - just waiting for classic....

[sam86]

Why should Blizz spend resources creating content that a massive chunk of its playerbase will never get to do?

u mean like they did in vanilla wow tbc? like how they released Black Temple when literally not a single one on earth can even enter it since it require attunement quest of killing Kaelthas, and no one killed him prior to patch 2.1? back when there was at least twice playerbase than now?
sadly who said they are spending resource in something minor won't see, U can enter Azshara already in lfr with some green sh8t, the only thing that majority of ppl don't see is just the tiny difference of mythic fight but u'll still see majority of content, no more sunwell where even trash f8ck a full geared BT/MHJ tank
And not many ppl want to see Azshara for its 1502th iteration just because she will sneeze twice in it instead of once

There should be only 1 raid mode. And it should be damn hard. Either you can do it or you can't. If you can't go do the truckload of other content that WoW has.

Or we can use Ulduar module, u can activate HM for some bosses doing specific things in fight, not right click and done, that idea exist since vanilla but was never widely used until Ulduar, and sadly only Ulduar (also mechagon has HM too, in its 1502 mythic difficulty tiers)

- - - Updated - - -

You fail to take into account the games age. I guarantee you if they never changed anything from vanilla and BC they would have lost more subs faster. But sure, let's all pretend a 15 year old game could retain the same amount of players if they only did what you want them to do, and produce content that excludes 90% or more of the playerbase.

The main reason why we started to lose sub was the drought of content, not anything else
the first drop was in cata, which while had 'lot' of content, it was the revamp of world, 1 solo quest and done, we had piss poor patch of zul'agains, back when most ppl at least did Zul'aman (ZG was revamp, but Zul'aman was copy paste dumped down for 5 men...), then fireland comes with remove of Abyssal Maw because 'tier raid sets costs us a raid tier' (or something similar, can't remember GC exact words), then came the worst raid in entire wow history
And since then the game never recovered, because unlike vanilla/tbc/wrath where the game actually had constant update of stuff to do, Cata started the drought, Ruby Sanctrum made lot of ppl stay, it was minor raid, but wrath has the most small raids in wow history, not to mention it dropped amazing trinkets if i remember right, trinkets/weapons tend to make big effect than just a stats piece like back or ring or even chest
So now, game age is irrelevant, Minecraft is still strong after years, LoL is still strong and it has the most toxic community ever with an extremely unfriendly gameplay too, wow has less effort than before, only in Legion they upped the content to 11 and Legion was far more success than BFA or WoD were

[Sunderella]

I wonder if the age old question have been answered "Would you raid if there is no reward?"

yes I would. In fact the reason why my motivation to play this game is so low is because to me anything that I do in game is pointless since I cant raid. Im right now around 400 ilv thanks to a few benthic pieces but, whats the point in getting higher levels if im not gonna put them to good use. Roflstomping a bunch nagas might be cool for a while but after I get revered with the water goblins Im not setting foot on Nazjatar again.


Back when I was an active raider, I used to want higher item levels to be able to go into the next raid. Never the other way around.

[NihilSustinet]

This could be only me... but hear this out

My ilvl is about 435 currently, I have yet to step foot into H AEP. I've gotten most of them from M+ and cache.

In terms of gears, there isn't really anything that I need from AEP except for specific trinkets/weapon.
There is no motivation in term of gears for me to play H AEP.... except.... to experience the content and the fights.

Right now, Im raiding because I want to. Not because it drop higher ilvl gears.

I wonder if the age old question have been answered "Would you raid if there is no reward?"

Maybe Blizz is slow shifting into this new paradigm where they want players to raid because they want to, not because of rewards.

Im' not sure but I am definitely in that camp

i think youre overthinking it. ion is just the worst designer in the history of wow, maybe gaming in general.

[Vesoha]

I like challenging games, but i also love a epic tale. Wow used to be mostly the first, the epic tale in vanilla was not really that epic, outside of beeing able to "live" in the world of warcraft it was not untill Burning crusade and especially Wotlk that i found the story interesting. But i did like the raiding, and the world pve and pvp around pve content like looong respawn Dragons and Demons. Raiding was not perfect, far from it. Buggy bosses, buggy loot tables, buggy terrain, dodgy aggro and single role classes.
But it was always challenging. Even after clearing bwl for a year you could wipe on bosses, AQ40 trash tended to take more of our time than the bosses did, even when we had everything down.

You never grew so much in power level that MC gear was completely outdated, but at the same time you never felt that it was pointless to raid new content either. There was always something, maybe just +10 spellpower or a certain set bonus trinket or weapon. At the same time you had hard dungeons like UBRS or to some degree DM, Scholomance ect. and later on the 20 man raids, all of them giving gear more rewarding than quest items. All of them required time and patience even in a random group. There was always something to work on or for to get to the next tier, it was never handed out to anyone who just waited for the next patch and could get raid level gear from 5 min world quests.

I raided till and including Ulduar, then the whole tokens for epics got silly and the Trial of the Crusader "raid" started a loot fest with more and more and more tokens. I still play wow, but i only play it for the story these days, might be away for months come back get flying see the new story content and that is it. I find my challenges in other games.

For the record not saying to quit wow if you enjoy it, or that vanilla is better. I played classic beta it was fine, but been there done that once before. If wow had never changed people would have left long before.

Just think about one thing, why is wow so much better in the start of the expansion, in the first 3-4 weeks? Yes it is new for one thing but also because we have to work for gear everybody starts on the same level, you only improve by doing harder content, problem is the content is either not hard enough or it is far to rewarding so you don't need to do it twice, which is why the interest dies off. I did bwl with my guild for over a year 1 time each week that was the reset no heroic flex no mythic just one difficulty and one try a week and i never saw the staff of the shadowflame drop. And had it dropped for your guild maybe another member would have overbid me in terms of DKP. Yet there I was every week.

tl:dr
We need something worthwhile to strive for both in life and in wow. If you work for a year to buy a car you will treasure that car so much more than a car you are given.

Wow have been on this path for years, if you can't find other aspects of the game to love or if they are minor aspects then diversify your game related time investment even if feels like giving up a life's work.

[Twdft]

My ilvl is about 435 currently, I have yet to step foot into H AEP. I've gotten most of them from M+ and cache.

In terms of gears, there isn't really anything that I need from AEP

So you farmed M+ which drops 430 base so much that you are 435 ilvl and wonder why you don't need anything from EP heroic whuch drops 430 base?

What's your point?

[Ange]

This could be only me... but hear this out

My ilvl is about 435 currently, I have yet to step foot into H AEP. I've gotten most of them from M+ and cache.

HEROIC is the old NORMAL and its cool you enjoy casual raiding.

But with Benthic gear and sockets your ilvl alone means dog-shit. You can do 40.000 simDPS with 415ilvl gear or <30.000 with 435ilvl. Stats, sockets and itembonuses matter more right now, you should know - maybe not, you are talking about pre-mythic raiding like its something extraordinary.

Whats the next topic, WQ gear or LFR??? "raiding"?

[Biggles Worth]

There should be no raids. Just tons of more quests.

Remember when Ion said when world questing was first introduced that there would be so many world quest, it would be months before you saw a repeat. What a joke.

[rrayy]

because like it or not, wanting something you can't have is great motivation to be able to get it as opposed to having it handed to you. there's a reason vanilla ragnaros and c'thun were dreamt of and basically any boss today is just fodder we forget about once they aren't relevant.

What you fail to realize is that players will just not bother. It said very naive to assume this will motivate people to get better.

[Mardux]

HEROIC is the old NORMAL and its cool you enjoy casual raiding.

But with Benthic gear and sockets your ilvl alone means dog-shit. You can do 40.000 simDPS with 415ilvl gear or <30.000 with 435ilvl. Stats, sockets and itembonuses matter more right now, you should know - maybe not, you are talking about pre-mythic raiding like its something extraordinary.

Whats the next topic, WQ gear or LFR??? "raiding"?

I must of missed something. What specs gain 10k dps from just sockets over 20 overall ilvls?

[Sorshen]

Game doesn't need 4 fucking difficulties for raid. Until it goes back to 'normal' + 'mythic' (probably never), you'll have the stupid season +30 ilvl inflation and WF/TF madness.