Why did Ulduar (as current content) only last for 4 months?

[Sylvaeres]

I think they should have just split Naxx in four wings and introduced it as dungeons available at different levels while leveling. Sapph and KT could be a two boss raid. Then the large raid for that tier could be Utgarde Pinnacle as originally planned, maybe Azjol'nerub (since they could not make it a zone they could have still made it a raid) or even something different featuring the blue dragonflight (imagine e.g. a Siege of Dalaran featuring Tyrigosa or Arygos)

I would be ok with all of that

[Shelly]

I think they should have just split Naxx in four wings and introduced it as dungeons available at different levels while leveling. Sapph and KT could be a two boss raid. Then the large raid for that tier could be Utgarde Pinnacle as originally planned, maybe Azjol'nerub (since they could not make it a zone they could have still made it a raid) or even something different featuring the blue dragonflight (imagine e.g. a Siege of Dalaran featuring Tyrigosa or Arygos)

Blizzard always tends to have a lot of lost potential each expansion. There's always a lot of stuff that could have been raids but - especially since LK - gear inflation gets to be so huge that it makes moving from one expansion to the other pretty wild to begin with.

I think only BC, MoP and Legion got the right amount of raid content for the storyline and what I'd consider availability of things to raid/lore.

[Video Games]

I feel like people only like ulduar as much as they do because it was their first real raid. Most people just did kara in bc and t7 was a joke. But for those of us who did raid in bc, it was fine. I still like bt except gorefiend trash and sunwell more.

[gutnbrg]

Razorscale was an annoying fight where you spent 80% of it fighting trash mobs while waiting for the NPC's to fix the harpoons to bring the boss down.

Ignis was pointless. There was no lore at all in all of Northrend about fire giants even being a thing, he served no real purpose other than "hey I make stone golems" and had no interesting loot on him.

Assembly of Iron was just re-using a hard mode mechanic from Vanilla's AQ40 raid. There was also nothing particularly "epic" about it in any way other than epic tank splatters on the floor from doing it hard mode without a proper CD available.

All this info is from actually playing from healing, tanking, and DPS perspectives during this time period in both 10 and 25 man versions of the raid. When it was current, people complained about it and now it's looked back on fondly because it didn't have the ridiculous content drought 11-15 month run time that other raids did.

so ur upset that u had to use a tank cd to avoid not dying on a boss fight? Ignus dropped upgrades for every class, including highly sought out tank trinkets and a melee weapon...and every mechanic in wow is reused, so whats the problem?

- - - Updated - - -

Previous poster didn't specifically say guilds, and I do remember pugs repeatedly triggering hardmode on XT when it was the weekly raid-quest.

However, that was after the release of the next raid, but still annoying.

if u cant stop doing dps, u deserve to fail...most pugs have shit dps, why not go 1 step further and stop when u should?

[Osmeric]

Greg Street (Ghostcrawler):

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...25539268677632

"Ulduar was popular for the tiny percent of players who saw it. Flex mode normal would have helped it a ton."

The issue appears to be that participation in Ulduar fell dramatically, not that ToC was rushed out. If I had to guess, the low participation led them to push out ToC.

Also:

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...26343815061504

"Ulduar was a high-water mark in many ways. Participation was low and the "button" hard modes weren't sustainable long term."

"Players were really spread out. Some couldn't beat the first boss and others were done."

- - - Updated - - -

Because they were dumb... Blizzard admitted a long time ago releasing the next raid so early was a huge mistake.

Did they say that, or did they say they regretted having to do that?

[SirBeef]

To be fair..they gated TOC pretty hardcore...the first weak of Trial we could only fight the first boss...so we all killed him and then moved back to Ulduar to progress through that

Next week we could only fight beasts and Jaraxxus....thus we all then went back to Ulduar that week to work on it...and so on and so on..don't forget a few things...

1. Legendary Healing Mace...
2. The Tier pieces in TOC were either complete crap compared to T8...or were godly...no real inbetween (for Rogues..we really didn't want to change out until we got into Heroic TOC..)
3. 0 Lights in the Darkness wasn't cleared for a LOOONG time after TOC was released..and Algalon still looming for a lot of guids

Shhhhh. Don't speak facts that say there was ridiculous gating mechanics in WotLK.

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I feel like people only like ulduar as much as they do because it was their first real raid. Most people just did kara in bc and t7 was a joke. But for those of us who did raid in bc, it was fine. I still like bt except gorefiend trash and sunwell more.

Ulduar sits as one of my least favorite raids but has a couple of my favorite fights.

- - - Updated - - -

Because they were dumb... Blizzard admitted a long time ago releasing the next raid so early was a huge mistake. Ulduar was one of the best raids of all time; sad the gear was trivialized so quickly into its life cycle. Although, to be fair, I've gotten my use out of the place having raided it a bijillion times trying to get Mimiron's Head to drop to no avail.

Where's the receipts on that. I've read most of the statements, some posted above, and it reads as if they felt they needed to get something else out since no one was raiding it. And those that did were either done already or not even close.

[Stormspellz]

Ulduar's best feature was that it was surrounded by Naxx and ToC, two of the worst raids in the history. Ulduar is a good raid no doubt, but highly overrated with its high highs like firefighter and yogg 2-0 and low lows like vaz and razorscale

[Byleth]

Ignis was pointless. There was no lore at all in all of Northrend about fire giants even being a thing

Except for the huge ice giant community being terrorized by a fire giant enemy...

But I agree that the loot sucked.

[Marvy]

So it's an interesting question, the short answer, is that Blizzard basically ballsed it up big time. People claim that WOTLK was the best expansion, as someone that held realm first on Sarth 3D, Algalon, Yogg0, Tribute to Imortality and Light of Dawn, I can tell you, it was not the best expansion, it was a big clusterf*ck and the devs regularly contradicted themselves and went back on their own statements and decisions.

To determine exactly why Ulduar is considered the best raid of all time for many (here comes the long answer), comes down to a large variety of factors. The fact that it only lasted 4 months is a very strong point in those factors, the "short and sweet" feel of it without a doubt contributed to having fond memories of it. Releasing ToC, an extremely dissapointing raid with only 5 bosses in the same room to replace it when there were only 100 world Algalon kills and 0 Yogg0 kills was an extremely poor decision on Blizzards part and as previous posters may have said, they were perhaps caving into criticism and listening to moaners a bit too much which pressured them into this decision. I also think it was fairly obvious there was a lot of instability at the company during this time as well.

Let's start with what came before Ulduar, which was the release of WOTLK and patch 3.0. Now this in my opinion was a complete shambles of a patch. It ruined the last month of TBC, and then continued into WOTLK. The class imbalance was immense, PvP was broken, DKs wrecked everything, the servers lagged out whenever Wintergrasp was up, there was next to no end game content at all, it felt like a beta. The questing and levelling was great, but then you got to the end and there was literally nothing. The 5 man heroics were a complete joke compared to the TBC ones, the rep grinds were trivial due to tabbards. Naxx was a rehashed raid where it was arguably harder doing the vanilla level 60 version in TBC at level 70, than it did doing the 80 version at 80. We got three new raids all of which were one boss raids. One was a pug tank and spank, one was a vehicle fight for the most part, and the last was admittedly quite good, but sadly it was only one boss. On top of this the splitting of 10 and 25 man raids did not get off to a good start, mainly because they hadn't bothered to balance it properly. If a boss had 10mil HP on 25 man, it had 4mil HP on 25 man, makes sense right? Since its 40%? Wrong, there are usually 5 dps in a 10 man vs 18 dps in a 25 man, which means a 10 mil HP 25 man boss should have 2.77mil on 10 man. How no one with a brain in the dev team managed to figure this out I will never know. This was particularly apparent on Sarth 10 man 3D, which while was a brilliant fight and a really think outside the box challenge, was considerably harder on 10 man due to the dps requirement than on its 25 man counterpart. They had also stated around the end of TBC that "no raids will be easy enough to be pugged", which was not the case for most of the expansion. So in all, the first 6 months of WOTLK were terrible, and was in desperate need of a fix. Ulduar was that fix.

So along comes 8.1, and before we get into that, consider that along with this patch came some serious class tuning and improvements, previous specs which were borderline unviable were considerably improved, and class balance was pretty much nailed in this patch. This patch also had away with talent respecs and allowed you to have a dual talent tree which was a fantastic improvement to the game, one that players had been begging for since vanilla. So along comes Ulduar, and yes it is a fantastic raid. Firstly because unlike today where you can just hit max level and stroll into the current raid tier, you still needed some Naxx gear to stand a chance in there, which made it feel like there was a good deal of content available. Today's model where when a new raid comes out it just completely obsoletes the previous one because the outside of raid items get huge ilevel buffs is just a dumb design and basically contributes to them creating their very own content drought. On top of this the badge model at this point was in a good spot, 5 man heroic and 10 man naxx got you the first tier (Hero), 25 man naxx and 10 man Ulduar the second tier (Valor), and 25 man Ulduar the third tier (Conquest), these badges were better than bonus rolls in the sense that you always got a currency and were eventually guaranteed to get some items if your luck was bad on loot. They also encouraged you to go for the hard modes in order to obtain more badges, or the medium modes in some cases. The difficulty of Ulduar was in my opinion perfect. The pugs had the first four to five bosses to deal with. The semi organised guilds had a decent raid to progress with, and the serious guilds had some serious hardmodes to contend with, plus a hidden boss. Everyone at the time was pretty happy with this model, if you wanted an easy raid you went to Naxx, if you wanted something a bit more serious then it was Ulduar. The gear it gave also didn't completely eclipse the Naxx gear either. Naxx10 gave 200, Naxx25 and Ulduar10 gave 213, Ulduar25 gave 226, however the end bosses and hardmodes gave one tier above, a really great and progressive gearing model in my eyes.

As for the raid itself, well it was as fantastic as people say. People always enjoy bigger raids I find, especially where there is a fairly loose order in which you can do the bosses. There were some really great boss designs in there including Flame Leviathan (although I know not everyone will agree with that one), really memorable and unique fights like Mimiron and Yogg-Saron. The lore and story were also big deals. The trash was hard and required a brain, unlike the complete aoe zergfest that was the Naxx trash. The scenery and art was fantastic, models we hadn't seen before, the train, literally everything about this raid was fantastic. I remember being progressing on Vezax hard mode when people were reading the upcoming developer notes for the upcoming 8.2 patch and someone quoting a line like "...where you will fight not one, but TWO jormungars!", and everyone was thinking, was this an out of season April Fool's joke?

So that brings us to patch 8.2, a patch so terrible that it most likely also contributes to Ulduar being fondly remembered. So this patch launches and a lot of the systems I complimented from the previous system go down the drain. The new Trial of the Crusader raid is extremely dull boring pathetic boss fights compared to Ulduar, mostly taking place in one room with no trash and just a bunch of pointless RP to go with it. To go from slaying an Old God of death and defeating a construct of the titans who intends to destroy the planet if you don't stop him, to having to prove yourselves by killing a giant yeti and a pair of worms in front of Tirion Fordring was a piss poor excuse of a raid. The fights were also extremely simple compared to their Ulduar counterparts, having far less mechanics, and now "hard mode" was remade to heroic mode, where basically it was the same fight but with 30% more HP and damage, and some extra adds, unlike the interesting twists that some of the Ulduar fights had. As if this wasn't bad enough, the raid was tuned so piss easy that freshly dinged 80s could just stroll in and 1 shot everything. 25 man normal mode rewarded 245 gear and 10 man 232. This was a shocking disgusting inflation of ilevel that made Ulduar completely obsolete overnight. On top of this doing daily heroic 5 man now rewarded the new 4th level of badges Triumph, which meant hardcore raiders were forced to do a daily heroic, a year after they had already facerolled through them back when they had level 70 gear still. Last but not least this was the first raid to introduce 50 limited attempts on the heroic version, another function which was not well received at all by the community. Finally the tier sets absolutely sucked this patch as well, because not only did they look generic and like something an npc would wear, they were not class unique and were instead cloth/leather/mail/plate unique. On top of that unlike previous tier sets which had recolors depending on the ilevel, these all looked the same, add further insult by this being the first tier set you could completely buy with badges. So some idiot who had just dinged and done the pug raid a few times and the daily heroic looked the same as a fully BiS heroic raider. Remember transmog didn't exist back then so this was a big deal to some. All in all this was a terrible patch, with a terrible raid, which will be fondly remembered for ending Ulduar prematurely.

So in conclusion why did Ulduar only last 4 months? Well as you can tell by how we go from terrible patch, to good patch, to back to terrible patch, I would put it down to extreme indecisiveness and instability in the dev team, possibly heavily influenced by the marketing team as well, don't forget this was around the peak time of subscribers. Other games releasing around the same time such as Aion and Age of Conan were definitely considered serious threats to WoW. WOTLK release felt rushed for an xmas release as it felt like a beta with no real endgame content. ToC felt like "We need a new raid and we need one fast, what can you do". I do remember reading that Ulduar was supposed to be there with the release of WOTLK as well, so it's save to say they had been working on it a while, and clearly used that time wisely to create an epic raid.

There will be many other reasons why people fondly remember Ulduar, but I have tried to keep it relevant to the question relating to the time frame of it here.

[Ozyorkbourne]

Ulduar today is a raid held in high regard. It was an absolutely massive raid with 14 bosses in total, with some of them being optional, and one of them being secret. Many bosses had a hard mode that could significantly change the way you would fight a boss, and was imo, pretty revolutionary in wow standards. Not to mention the massive amount of achievements in the place, with a lot of them not even being required for the meta.

Yet despite all of this content, blizz released ToC a mere 4 months later, a raid with only 6 bosses with only two rooms and no trash. While there were guilds pushing Alg, yogg 0 etc. when ToC came out, for a majority of raiders, Ulduar became irrelevant. So why did blizz cut's Ulduar's life so short? Were they scared at how all of those naxx guilds were struggling through it? Were they not satisfied with Ulduar? I've heard some talk that Ulduar actually wasn't as liked when it first came out, did that have something to do with it?

Because WoTLKs pacing was odd. ToC could have come a month or two later and Halion could have come a months or two sooner. Naxx could have been scaled properly and Sarth 3d could have been made un-cheesable.

The entirety of WoTLK was a big melting pot of ideas an experiments for Blizzard. Different ideas about hard mode, should it be a difficulty setting, should it be a per-boss trigger where you can mix and match, should there be something you do in the fight (kill the heart etc). They had stuff they wanted to test in ToC such as multi-bosses in similar space to see how people reacted as well as limited try bosses, different to Algalon who was limited time etc.

I had some realm 1sts, 2nds and 3rds. I enjoyed the expansion quite a lot from a raid perspective, but I was a semi-casual 3-4 nights a week raider so I couldn't give you anything in depth.

[Flurryfang]

Honestly, a large part of this is most likely because it had such a short lifetime as current content. Think about raids that came before or after it with extremely long lifetimes like Siege of Orgrimmar, Hellfire Citadel, or even Icecrown Citadel. These are all remembered as okay or decent raids for the most part but they wore players down from doing the content over and over and over again until their third or fourth alts were completely geared out (for instance, in ICC I had three characters in nearly full heroic gear and for Hellfire I had 4 characters in nearly full mythic gear) instead of having a decent lifetime and then moving on to the next raid.

At the time the hard mode was "revolutionary" simply because it hadn't been used often; it was used as early back as AQ40 when doing the Bug Trio bosses there and again doing Sartharion for 1/2/3 drakes mode but it was the first large scale raid that had multiple "hard modes" even if some of them weren't exactly difficult. When Ulduar released it was fairly disliked; you had the first few bosses being a vehicle fight (Flame Leviathan), a trash killing boss fight (Razorscale) with an annoying harpoon mechanic, Ignis was entirely pointless other than a 2h and a trinket that was for tanks I believe, and XT-002 was the first boss that really had any fun or charming aspect to it. Assembly of Iron was just another council fight with a hard mode activated by kill order which was done before ala AQ40, and then you had Kologarn who was a stationary giant piece of rock with very little mechanical difficulty. Auriaya's hardest mechanic was dealing with her adds; it wasn't until more than halfway through the raid that the hard modes even made a huge difference at all.

Once you got to the Keepers it became more interesting with unique mechanics on Hodir with the fires, Thorim's hard mode adding basically a second boss to the fight, Freya requiring massive amounts of DPS to power through, and Firefighter being one of the most difficult fights the game had seen to that point. Vezax was basically a tank and spank fight when using DK tanks who were massively overpowered at the time with the 1 minute cooldown on Icebound Fortitude although it did have a unique mana regen mechanic, and then Yogg was a very fun and difficult fight when doing the harder versions.

The first half of the raid was incredibly boring or gimmicky fights while the second half was immensely fun and challenging overall, and the lifetime was short enough that most people didn't grind out the hard versions of it for months on end and only really went back for quick clears for Val'anyr shards which is why I feel it is remembered so fondly compared to other raids.

As for why it only lasted for 4 months, Blizzard was in a phase where their claimed goal was 1 expansion a year which obviously never came to happen; but at the time they were rushing the content out and most likely realized that either ICC wasn't quite ready yet or that they had more bosses intended for the raid than necessary and likely moved the extra bosses who didn't make the cut like Twin Valkyr and Anub'arak into ToC along with some filler bosses like Northrend Beasts and the Faction Champions encounter along with everyone's good friend Lord Jaraxxus to give us content in between.

To this day, the idea of Hard-Mode is still what makes Ulduar the best raid of all time, because it just made the bosses bigger, deeper and more interesting. They were complex structures, cause they had to open up for something more. Even Hodir, which hard mode was just a speed run, still had the utility of friendly NPCs, that had a large impact on how you attack. It feels like a huge toy house of boss designs, with wacky ideas and perfect examples of traditional fight design.

It is the perfect picture of a raid. Sure, we might have gotten a bit more tired of some bosses if it had lasted more as current content, but if you take the entire raid of context today, just looking at its design, with its different bosses and its generel structure, it is still insanely great. If there is ever a raid you could make a gaming design lecture about, it would be Ulduar.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Because WOTLK, the expansion hailed as "teh best!" when it was really not all that cohesive or structured. Ulduar was great, I was scared of it for many years for that reason, but they didn't give it the time it deserved as current content. Although if they had, I'm willing to bet more people would've fallen a bit out of love with it, so perhaps it was for the best?

[DeltrusDisc]

That has more to do with the weird pacing of WotLK than anything else.

If anything the releases should have been - Naxx -> ToC -> Ulduar -> ICC.

Anyway, ToC was released to advance the story and set the stage for ICC. At the time Blizz was working towards an expansion every year and wanted to move up patch cycles. Then four expansions later they realized they couldn't do it and went back to expansions every two to three years.

Really they were operating on the high that was BC where they pretty much had all expansion content ready to go from launch since so much of it was built fast and dirty - like AQ 20/40 - or was meant to be max level content that they moved over to be an entire expansion (Kara, Black Temple, Outland).

The lore made ToC flow into ICC nicely, but it really should have been handled better.

Originally, ToC was supposed to be part of a... gasp, unlock chain to gain access to ICC. It's been so long since WoW has had them, I'm forgetting the old term for the gated content behind some kind of long quest chain... what were those again? x_x

[Doffen]

I was there, raiding Ulduar at current. And it was just an awesome experience. We were used to overlapping raids back then so we didn't think about it. Surely not all liked the design of Hard-modes and so on, but I loved it.

Awesome story
Awesome visually
Awesome raid-design
Awesome boss-fights

Ulduar, best raid in WoW.

[Jikate-Stormrage]

Because WOTLK, the expansion hailed as "teh best!" when it was really not all that cohesive or structured. Ulduar was great, I was scared of it for many years for that reason, but they didn't give it the time it deserved as current content. Although if they had, I'm willing to bet more people would've fallen a bit out of love with it, so perhaps it was for the best?

I never understood this idea of “fearing a raid instance”, and I’m not poking fun at you. I fondly remember our 25 man guild falling apart at Vezax (guild leaders were shopping for a new home for themselves cause server 2nd wasn’t good enuf for them), immediately creating a 10 man guild and clearing all the hard modes in one weeks time; all before ToGC came out.

I even plugged into a guild run in ulduar (their first time in there beyond the first boss) and helped them clear 8 bosses that night.

There wasn’t anything mystical or to be afraid of when it comes to ulduar. But I will always hold it close as a great raiding experience and one of the best raids to ever be developed in WoW. Have other raids since also captured my adoration? Certainly, ICC 10m H was a great raid (25m as well). Firelands H was also a fun raid. Throne of Thunder H was also admirable. I haven’t raided Mythic all that much (too much work managing a 20 man roster and attitudes), but I’m certain a few stick out there as well.

Outside of those, in BFA, nothing has really stood out to me as exceptional. My opinion of course.

[RoKPaNda]

Greg Street (Ghostcrawler):

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...25539268677632

"Ulduar was popular for the tiny percent of players who saw it. Flex mode normal would have helped it a ton."

The issue appears to be that participation in Ulduar fell dramatically, not that ToC was rushed out. If I had to guess, the low participation led them to push out ToC.

Also:

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...26343815061504

"Ulduar was a high-water mark in many ways. Participation was low and the "button" hard modes weren't sustainable long term."

"Players were really spread out. Some couldn't beat the first boss and others were done."

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Did they say that, or did they say they regretted having to do that?

This is it basically. For those of us that saw it, it was generally great by the standards of the time. It wouldn't hold up to today's raids, but it was fun enough at the time. Most people never got to see it though.

[Firedemon]

As great as Uludar was, and it was, it became boring rather quick. I remember that were working on 0 lights when TOC came out (every hm down + Algalon) and every night, pretty much all of us wanted to kill ourselves instead of running Ulduar.

Will never underatand the hate on ToC. The encounters were nice and it was also nice not having to do trash. Yeah, it was only 5 bosses, so? Plus that the Insanity trinkets were .. insane lol.

[Schizoide]

Exactly. I was glad to be done raiding Ulduar at the time.

Of course given the year long content drought between 3.3 and 4.0, it's clear they should have delayed ToC by another 2-3 months.

Hate on ToC is due to two things. First, you could get loot running in multiple modes in the same week, so you were always in the dang place repating the same fights. Second, the "PvP" fight was terrible. Although I was maining an Unholy DK at the time and for me it was glorious.

[MrExcelion]

Will never underatand the hate on ToC. The encounters were nice and it was also nice not having to do trash. Yeah, it was only 5 bosses, so? Plus that the Insanity trinkets were .. insane lol.

PVP boss mainly and the Tribute to Immortality weren't a good match.

Anub also suffered from input lag and dcs, though nowhere near as bad input lag as launch Naxx25 and Sunwell KJ before it. Mixed on the whole kiting mechanic and class viability and the precision of ice patch placement but it was certainly innovative and a decent boss.

First boss Kobold mechanic was kind of annoying. Dodging charges was inconsistent depending on your personal or server lag on updating the position. Too much RP in that fight, but overall I liked it, even the two worms. Solid boss.

Jaraxxus was fairly undertuned and spellstealing was OP. Memorable boss and quotes though. Was alright.

Twins utilized a silly door strat which actually worked so it wasn't a real boss. Even if the strat didn't work, you could have people playing goalie in a box formation. Mechanically wasn't all that interesting, just a spine of deathwing burst window

Weapons and trinkets were cool but the tier sets were on a shared system and looked really bland.

Players also just don't like mini-raids in general and how they're timed (see CoS), but I'd like to think all hands were on deck with ICC development. Fighting all the bosses in a single room, with no trash and lots of RP felt like a watered down raid experience after being delivered perfection in Ulduar.

Not to mention it started that system of running 4 modes like the above poster said. And like the above poster said, they clearly weren't prepared for all these modes because it contributed to delays in the following patches and xpacs, with cut content like Abyssal Maw and whatever else Skywall was supposed to contain.

[Trend]

Anyway, ToC was released to advance the story and set the stage for ICC. At the time Blizz was working towards an expansion every year and wanted to move up patch cycles. Then four expansions later they realized they couldn't do it and went back to expansions every two to three years.

While it is true that they were attempting a raid release pacing that could not be sustained, your theory about expansion scheduling is flat out wrong. That schedule has never been close to 1 year, nor has it been close to 3 years. The shortest period between expansions was 1.8 years when Legion replaced WoD. The longest period was the 2.15 years that elapsed between the initial WoW launch and BC. Thus, the expansion release schedule has been remarkably consistent throughout.

The data:


version_____launch________days___years
Vanilla_____2004-11-23_______________
BC__________2007-01-16____784____2.15
WotLK_______2008-11-13____667____1.83
Cataclysm___2010-12-07____754____2.06
MoP_________2012-09-25____658____1.80
WoD_________2014-11-13____779____2.13
Legion______2016-08-30____656____1.80
BfA_________2018-08-14____714____1.95