WoW needs to ignore the 5% most casual and hardcore players to make it fun for 90%

[Kumorii]

I've never heard of any developer saying this, and it sounds like massive BS. Link to quote?

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ine-Blue-Posts

Why does it sound like massive BS? No developer can ever justifying doing months of works for 1% of the audience.

You don't need to create LFR to justify the creation of raiding if the majority already saw the raiding content. The fact was that most people DIDN'T see raiding content because it was locked behind content they couldn't do... thus you were creating raids and such for a minority of people, you know, the majority as OP claim it to be.

I think there is numbers on how many saw Kel'Thuzad or whatever and it was like <1% that actually did said content. Try justifying developing massive raids which only a fraction of players get to see.... LFR in some sense saved raiding and I honestly don't get why people hate it so much. I just don't do LFR...ez pz, I don't have to deal with it. It doesn't hurt you in any way except justifying them creating more raids... and so far the past few raids have been great.

[Elias01]

well its a good thing you can go play classic soon then. because nobody wants this for retail.

Which is complete nonsense. WoW devs themself that 1% of people raiding was myth. There was huge amounth of casual guilds raiding all over the place.

All this suppoer fact that Ghostcrawler. Invetor of LFR pick LFR as his worst feature what have ever created in his carrier as dev.

[Fitsu]

Too bad this is just an endless void with tons of angles to look at that lead nowhere. You could even apply this to films. Filmmakers need to follow their own unique ideas. The most memorable films were made with a vision in mind....

...yet these days the umpfteenth remake by Disney of one of their well made films as CGI still rakes in a billion and even the worst Star Wars sequels, prequels and spin offs as well. Rxcept Solo ofc...THE ONE film that I thought was not possible to fuck up.

And even when sequels, remakes or reboots go bad (Robocop, Total Recal, Terminator, Ghostbusters) - it never stops.

Yeah, early game designers just fired off ideas, because there was nothing on the market. Then there was the great time, when creative studios like the Bitmap Brothers or Peter Molyneux just made one unique game after the other. But once you find the brand that makes you money....you stick to it. And some of them just keep generating money, so I don't even blame them ....

I guess then it's a case of trying to ignore all the things the community says, understand what it was that made your brand so big in the first place and learn how to build on that. Dark Souls is a good example of this (Minus #2, where they fell a little) looking at the likes of souls 3, bloodborne, Sekiro all in the same "brand" but doing there own thing creatively, that worked because they still did what they wanted.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Which is complete nonsense. WoW devs themself that 1% of people raiding was myth. There was huge amounth of casual guilds raiding all over the place.

All this suppoer fact that Ghostcrawler. Invetor of LFR pick LFR as his worst feature what have ever created in his carrier as dev.

The 1% quote was 1% of players (or raiders maybe?) saw Naxxramas. That's why it was re-released in wrath. They spent all this time developing content that no one saw.

[tumppu]

This is happening with WoW. Lots of extremely easy content (=sugar), WQ's, island expeditions, LFR, etc. which are hurting the game long-term.

You know, WoW is coming up on 15 years. Saying something in the game today is hurting it "long-term" is extremely funny to me, for some reason.

[Elias01]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ine-Blue-Posts

Why does it sound like massive BS?

You don't need to create LFR to justify the creation of raiding if the majority already saw the raiding content. The fact was that most people DIDN'T see raiding content because it was locked behind content they couldn't do... thus you were creating raids and such for a minority of people, you know, the majority as OP claim it to be.

I think there is numbers on how many saw Lich King or whatever and it was like <5% that actually did said content. Try justifying developing massive raids which only a fraction of players get to see.... LFR in some sense saved raiding and I honestly don't get why people hate it so much. I just don't do LFR...ez pz, I don't have to deal with it. It doesn't hurt you in any way except justifying them creating more raids... and so far the past few raids have been great.

Thing is he is talking about KelThusźard. But there was huge amounth og guilds raiding MC, AQ and other raid instances. Also Kelthuzard was mostly dont only few guilds becouse tier lasted only couple of months and TBC was about to release so lot of guilds stop raiding. Sorry listening to this robor develop as Ion is just absolulte nonsense.

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You know, WoW is coming up on 15 years. Saying something in the game today is hurting it "long-term" is extremely funny to me, for some reason.

BFA isnt 15y old.

[Big Thanks]

I've never heard of any developer saying this, and it sounds like massive BS. Link to quote?

The exact quote was:

LFR justifies the creation of more raid content when millions of players are able to see content. Only a few thousand people actually saw Kel'thuzad, but millions saw Deathwing. The reason Mists of Pandaria is starting with 18 bosses and adding larger raid tiers than we have had previously is because many players are going to see the raids through LFR

The poster your quoted added a bit to it

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ine-Blue-Posts

[Super Kami Dende]

They try to please the 5% most hardcore players. The Gladiators, the "Mythic race to world first", the M+ farmers.

They also try to please the 5% most casual players.LFR, Catch up mechanics, no difficulty at all in Questing/Normal Dungeons/Random solo queue BGs, Titanforging "jackpot", transmogs and mounts.

If you think that is only 5% of the Players in WoW I have some very bad news for you.

[Elias01]

The 1% quote was 1% of players (or raiders maybe?) saw Naxxramas. That's why it was re-released in wrath. They spent all this time developing content that no one saw.

Yes becouse someone propably told them that creating content what only 1% get to finish is nonsense. It makes sense from marketing statepoint. But from game desing perspective it is absolute nonsense to allow everybody finish content for free. Absolute nonsense.

[msdos]

People always bring up that Naxx crap but they fail to mention that most guilds, including mine at the time, didn't even bother due to being extremely burnt out by AQ 40, the rep grinding, the contribution point farming, consumable farming, raider recruiting, not with TBC right around the corner.

You can't just look at stats and draw a conclusion, it doesn't work like that.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

OP believes nothing, someone that claims Normal and HC as "satisfying challenging content" shouldnt be allowed to post online without an IQ test.

100% agree with you

[Super Kami Dende]

I've never heard of any developer saying this, and it sounds like massive BS. Link to quote?

It was one of their main reasoning for adding in multiple difficulties and LFR. Since it meant the resources to create the Raids wasn't wasted for 95% of the playerbase. The Devs said it on many occasions.

[Elias01]

People always bring up that Naxx crap but they fail to mention that most guilds, including mine at the time, didn't even bother due to being extremely burnt out by AQ 40, the rep grinding, the contribution point farming, consumable farming, raider recruiting, not with TBC right around the corner.

You can't just look at stats and draw a conclusion, it doesn't work like that.

Ofc you cant. Another example of just looking at participation rates and say this is wrong. People what defend this system have absolutly no clue what they talking about. They just see low number and point at it.

[Kumorii]

Yes becouse someone propably told them that creating content what only 1% get to finish is nonsense. It makes sense from marketing statepoint. But from game desing perspective it is absolute nonsense to allow everybody finish content for free. Absolute nonsense.

What? Only ones that think content should be locked away from people tends to be elitists who only wants to be seen as above others in my experience... from game developing stand point you want people to experience the content you create, they ofc should have to EARN it, but they should experience it... and if 1% is the only ones experiencing it, it's not because they are bad, it's because you failed as a designer.

People always bring up that Naxx crap but they fail to mention that most guilds, including mine at the time, didn't even bother due to being extremely burnt out by AQ 40, the rep grinding, the contribution point farming, consumable farming, raider recruiting, not with TBC right around the corner.

You can't just look at stats and draw a conclusion, it doesn't work like that.

I highly doubt they just looked at Naxx and decided lets do LFR in a few expansions... instead they took an extreme example to convey the idea and thought process for why they went with LFR... which was, not shockingly, that not enough people got to see or experience the content to justify the development time on it.

It's just denial tbh if you think they literally just mean that one example and not a common trend with raiding overall. Using your personal experiences is also irrelevant... even if that number increased to 5% or 10% in other raids it would still be far less than what's desirable for any developer.

[Azerate]

They try to please the 5% most hardcore players. The Gladiators, the "Mythic race to world first", the M+ farmers.

Agree, this is bad.

They also try to please the 5% most casual players. LFR, Catch up mechanics, no difficulty at all in Questing/Normal Dungeons/Random solo queue BGs, Titanforging "jackpot", transmogs and mounts.

People partaking in those activities as their main gameplay are certainly not 5%, more like 50%, or more.

Also, I don't see a problem with there being a mythic raid, just like LFR. 4 raid difficulties was the best update ever introduced to the game because it lets everyone enjoy the raids on their appropriate difficulty level.

[Elias01]

It was one of their main reasoning for adding in multiple difficulties and LFR. Since it meant the resources to create the Raids wasn't wasted for 95% of the playerbase. The Devs said it on many occasions.

Except fact that back in vannila raiding participation was much higher than 5%or 10% or 15%.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Yes becouse someone propably told them that creating content what only 1% get to finish is nonsense. It makes sense from marketing statepoint. But from game desing perspective it is absolute nonsense to allow everybody finish content for free. Absolute nonsense.

It's not a marketing standpoint. There are zero companies in the world that will spend 6 months designing something that 1% of its customers will use more than once. It was a waste of resources, but they found a way to make it worth the investment.

And not a single player who has played or is currently seeing content did it for free.

[Elias01]

Agree, this is bad.



People partaking in those activities as their main gameplay are certainly not 5%, more like 50%, or more.

Also, I don't see a problem with there being a mythic raid, just like LFR. 4 raid difficulties was the best update ever introduced to the game because it lets everyone enjoy the raids on their appropriate difficulty level.

Yes and wast majority of those playes participate in it becouse it is path of least resistance no beocuse it is fun.

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It's not a marketing standpoint. There are zero companies in the world that will spend 6 months designing something that 1% of its customers will use more than once. It was a waste of resources, but they found a way to make it worth the investment.

And not a single player who has played or is currently seeing content did it for free.

IT IS NOT 1% It never was 1% Stop using this argument. Blizzard never ever told us that only 1% of people were raidding.

[Orkysaurus]

"...Every single change that has been made to the game after vanilla Naxx "fiasco" where statistically "no one" even entered ..."

I call bs on this often referenced talking point. I knew ALOT of people in those days, not just the people in my guild but several other guilds on the server..what I can say...practically everyone I knew was in Naxx at some point of progression past 1 boss.

[Magical Mudcrab]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ine-Blue-Posts

Why does it sound like massive BS? No developer can ever justifying doing months of works for 1% of the audience.

You don't need to create LFR to justify the creation of raiding if the majority already saw the raiding content. The fact was that most people DIDN'T see raiding content because it was locked behind content they couldn't do... thus you were creating raids and such for a minority of people, you know, the majority as OP claim it to be.

I think there is numbers on how many saw Kel'Thuzad or whatever and it was like <1% that actually did said content. Try justifying developing massive raids which only a fraction of players get to see.... LFR in some sense saved raiding and I honestly don't get why people hate it so much. I just don't do LFR...ez pz, I don't have to deal with it. It doesn't hurt you in any way except justifying them creating more raids... and so far the past few raids have been great.

I looked at the quote, but to characterize LFR as having saved raiding from that is a bit of a stretch. Ion was explicitly referring to dedicating more resources to easily available content rather than keeping the same amount of resources on relatively difficult (but accessible) content.

The reason why I said it wounds like BS is because it sounded like you were saying that they were going to remove raiding as content if they didn't make it more widely accessible.