How exactly is Necromancer too similar to Warlock DK?

[Ielenia]

Except they don't do the same thing. GG pulls mobs towards a target of your choice, while Sigil of Chains pulls you into the Sigil and snares you. Grav-O-Bomb pulls the target to the bomb and damages them when the countdown ends.

And you accuse others of "splitting hairs". Imagine that.

Also we're back to the worthless argument that an ability with a different/new mechanic is automatically viewed as OP for "reasons".

I'm sorry, but why do you think Gorefriend's Grasp has a 2-minute cooldown and Sigil of Chains has a 1.5 minute cooldown? Because if they had lower cooldown than that, like the 30-second cooldown Skaggit's ability does, they would be overpowered. Especially since Gorefiend's Grasp does less of what your "Grav-o-bomb" does, since all it does is pull mobs and nothing else, but still has a 2-minute cooldown.

Let's take a look at other NPC abilities, shall we? In Nazjatar, you have common NPCs who have an ability that increases damage, haste and movement speed of all friendly units within 20 yards by 50% on a 30-second cooldown. Don't you think that ability would be overpowered if it went to a class, unchanged? Or a more simpler ability: 2-second cast, root for 3 seconds and deal physical damage on a 3-second cooldown. Wouldn't that be OP for a player class? Or how about a defensive cooldown that reduces all damage taken by 40% for 30 seconds on a 2-second cooldown? Wouldn't those abilities be overpowered if given to player classes, as-is?

You can look at the WC3 and HotS Tinker abilities.

You can look at them all day and it wouldn't make any difference, since those are different games of different genres with different rules and mechanics. So using those games as "proof" of how one ability would "have to damage and pull" or anything is meaningless. Not to mention dishonest. And also, absolutely nothing of what you see in those games cannot be replicated by the other themes. Walking bombs, throwing fire, pulling mobs, etc. All things already done by currently existing player class themes.

LoL!

The inability to play all three specs at the same time has absolutely nothing to do with two classes cannibalizing each other ability and design wise.

And considering no one is making even a single fuss regarding frost mages and frost death knights "cannibalizing each other", or fire mages and destruction warlocks "cannibalizing each other", or mistweaver monks and restoration shamans "cannibalizing each other", or even holy paladins and holy priests"cannibalizing each other", shows that your argument about "cannibalizing" is irrelevant.

[Triceron]

Well it's obvious that the Necromancer is a copy of the Warlock gameplay-wise (mechanically)

Yes, just like the Tinker would basically be a copy of the Hunter and Druid abilities. I can see a Gun spec (Marksmanship), an Arsenal spec (Balance), a Tanking spec and a Healing spec available for it. Other than unique heal mechanics, DPS and tanking is pretty homogenized across all specs.

On the other hand, the Tinker is pretty unique mechanically and thematically within the class lineup, so it's really a different situation entirely.

Not really at all. Its mechanics sounds the same as what Hunters and Druids and their theme is covered if they decide to take up Engineering.

The reason to have a Tinker is to play as a Tinker, that's about it. Not because of game mechanics, because the Tinker doesn't really have any interesting mechanics to speak of. Everything a Playable Character has is derivative of existing gameplay.

I mean how many unique game points can you bring up about the Demon Hunter that really makes it different? Double Jump? Gliding? Those could be given to any class honestly, and isn't really 'unique' to a Demon Hunter concept. You could say Paladins or Warlocks get temporary wings and get those abilities just the same. Even Priests give wings to players through Leap of Faith.

And some of the more unique aspects of Tech is already covered by Goblin Racials and Engineering. Rocket Boosts, Parachutes, Rocket Launchers etc.

[Teriz]

And you accuse others of "splitting hairs". Imagine that.


I'm sorry, but why do you think Gorefriend's Grasp has a 2-minute cooldown and Sigil of Chains has a 1.5 minute cooldown? Because if they had lower cooldown than that, like the 30-second cooldown Skaggit's ability does, they would be overpowered. Especially since Gorefiend's Grasp does less of what your "Grav-o-bomb" does, since all it does is pull mobs and nothing else, but still has a 2-minute cooldown.

Let's take a look at other NPC abilities, shall we? In Nazjatar, you have common NPCs who have an ability that increases damage, haste and movement speed of all friendly units within 20 yards by 50% on a 30-second cooldown. Don't you think that ability would be overpowered if it went to a class, unchanged? Or a more simpler ability: 2-second cast, root for 3 seconds and deal physical damage on a 3-second cooldown. Wouldn't that be OP for a player class? Or how about a defensive cooldown that reduces all damage taken by 40% for 30 seconds on a 2-second cooldown? Wouldn't those abilities be overpowered if given to player classes, as-is?

Amazing how the proposed Necromancer abilities are never deemed as OP or unworkable, yet Tinker abilities that are already present in the game are somehow impossible to implement.

Thats one heck of a double standard folks.

And considering no one is making even a single fuss regarding frost mages and frost death knights "cannibalizing each other", or fire mages and destruction warlocks "cannibalizing each other", or mistweaver monks and restoration shamans "cannibalizing each other", or even holy paladins and holy priests"cannibalizing each other", shows that your argument about "cannibalizing" is irrelevant.

So you seriously can't tell the difference between a Specialization and a Class?

Amazing.

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Yes, just like the Tinker would basically be a copy of the Hunter and Druid abilities.

Yeah, you would be mistaken.

Not really at all. Its mechanics sounds the same as what Hunters and Druids and their theme is covered if they decide to take up Engineering.

Really? Name those mechanics please.

And some of the more unique aspects of Tech is already covered by Goblin Racials and Engineering. Rocket Boosts, Parachutes, Rocket Launchers etc.

Pocket Factories? Upgradable Turrets and Robots? Chargeable Lasers? Vehicles? Scavenger mechanic? Transmutation?

[Triceron]

Pocket Factories? Upgradable Turrets and Robots? Chargeable Lasers? Vehicles? Scavenger mechanic? Transmutation?

How does Pocket Factories work? Explain it using an example that would actually work in game.

Same with vehicles. Explain how it would work for a player class. I am not convinced that a vehicle in combat for a Player Class would work.

Transmutation. What is this, so you instant kill an enemy and turn them into gold? Explain how this mechanic works.

[Teriz]

How does Pocket Factories work? Explain it using an example that would actually work in game.

Exactly as it works in WC3. If you want to get bare bones, a totem that spits out a melee imp every few seconds until it expires.

Same with vehicles. Explain how it would work for a player class. I am not convinced that a vehicle in combat for a Player Class would work.

Exactly like Druid forms, just with altered abilities to simulate piloting a mech instead of turning into an animal.

Transmutation. What is this, so you instant kill an enemy and turn them into gold? Explain how this mechanic works.

Instant kill that turns a target into gold. When you loot the corpse you get additional gold. If Blizz wants to get fancy, they could allow transmute to offer a higher chance to get rare weapons, gems, or other items.

[Ielenia]

Amazing how the proposed Necromancer abilities are never deemed as OP or unworkable, yet Tinker abilities that are already present in the game are somehow impossible to implement.

Thats one heck of a double standard folks.

There is no double-standard.

The abilities I listed in my necromancer concept are not deemed "OP" or "unworkable" because, while creating them, I compared them to similar player abilities to give them a believable cooldown and power, more in line to how similar player abilities work. You, on the other hand, are comparing your ideas to NPC abilities, which are clearly not in line with how player abilities work and would be "deemed OP or unworkable" if given to a player class, as-is.

So you seriously can't tell the difference between a Specialization and a Class?

Amazing.

It's an arbitrary difference, here. When you play a class, you play one spec at a time. The spec you're playing is the "entirety" of the class at that moment for you. The only difference between "spec overlap" and "class overlap" is scope. A destruction warlock is a fire mage. A frost death knight is a frost mage. Overlap is ok. The necromancer and the death knight would never "100% overlap" for a myriad of reason, chief among those being:
• A ranged class is fundamentally different than a melee class;
• Your claim that a necromancer class must be "blood/frost/unholy" is nothing but a strawman that is shared by nobody.

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Exactly like Druid forms, just with altered abilities to simulate piloting a mech instead of turning into an animal.

Then it wouldn't be a vehicle. "Vehicles" in WoW are a very specific mechanic. The tanks in Ulduar that you pilot are "vehicles". The giant efigy you ride in a World Quest in Drustvar is a "vehicle". The giant turtle you ride in that World Quest in Stormsong valley are "vehicles".

Instant kill that turns a target into gold. When you loot the corpse you get additional gold. If Blizz wants to get fancy, they could allow transmute to offer a higher chance to get rare weapons, gems, or other items.

... And then you have the gall of complaining when people accuse you of making up OP abilities? Really? Instant kill ability? Gives extra gold on kill? Increased chance of rare drops? Really?

[Triceron]

Exactly as it works in WC3. If you want to get bare bones, a totem that spits out a melee imp every few seconds until it expires.

So in otherwords, a mechanic that has zero application in an MMORPG. Like I said, it's not viable at all.

I mean look at Ressurection Paladin Heroic in WC3. You raise 6 allies from the dead instantly. That can't be translated to WoW 'exactly as it works in WC3' or it'd be unbalanced.

Look at Mass Teleportation. If it worked as it did in WC3 it would break PVP.

What you have is a lack of understanding how WoW translates WC3 abilities, and the fundamental design that underlies all Playable Classes. This is why you think a Tinker is more viable than any other class concept. It's because you think something is more unique when it's actually not viable at all.

Instant kill that turns a target into gold. When you loot the corpse you get additional gold. If Blizz wants to get fancy, they could allow transmute to offer a higher chance to get rare weapons, gems, or other items.

I rest my case

[cocomen2]

Instant kill that turns a target into gold. When you loot the corpse you get additional gold. If Blizz wants to get fancy, they could allow transmute to offer a higher chance to get rare weapons, gems, or other items.

Estimated power level of Hypocrisy over 9000. Hats off my dear.

[Teriz]

There is no double-standard.

The abilities I listed in my necromancer concept are not deemed "OP" or "unworkable" because, while creating them, I compared them to similar player abilities to give them a believable cooldown and power, more in line to how similar player abilities work. You, on the other hand, are comparing your ideas to NPC abilities, which are clearly not in line with how player abilities work and would be "deemed OP or unworkable" if given to a player class, as-is.

Yes, abilities from WC3 and HotS, the source of multiple class abilities WoW.

It's an arbitrary difference, here. When you play a class, you play one spec at a time. The spec you're playing is the "entirety" of the class at that moment for you. The only difference between "spec overlap" and "class overlap" is scope. A destruction warlock is a fire mage. A frost death knight is a frost mage. Overlap is ok. The necromancer and the death knight would never "100% overlap" for a myriad of reason, chief among those being:
• A ranged class is fundamentally different than a melee class;
• Your claim that a necromancer class must be "blood/frost/unholy" is nothing but a strawman that is shared by nobody.

Again, two specs can share similar themes, but entire classes cant.

It isnt shared by Necromancer fans because they don't want to admit that their desired class is similar to the existing DK class. Unfortunately, blood, frost, and Unholy are the pillars of WoW Necromancy. As I've said multiple times, a Necromancer is only possible through a severe revamp of Warlock and DK classes. Frost Mages may lose a couple of abilities too.

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So in otherwords, a mechanic that has zero application in an MMORPG. Like I said, it's not viable at all.

Warlocks spit out Imps every few seconds and it works out just fine. What's wrong with a construct doing it instead?

I mean look at Ressurection Paladin Heroic in WC3. You raise 6 allies from the dead instantly. That can't be translated to WoW 'exactly as it works in WC3' or it'd be unbalanced.

You mean like Mass resurrection where the only difference is an added cast time?

What you have is a lack of understanding how WoW translates WC3 abilities, and the fundamental design that underlies all Playable Classes.

Pot meet kettle.

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Estimated power level of Hypocrisy over 9000. Hats off my dear.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Touch_of_Death

[Triceron]

Warlocks spit out Imps every few seconds and it works out just fine. What's wrong with a construct doing it instead?

Then you have a Warlock ability derivative. Not as unique as I figured.

You mean like Mass resurrection where the only difference is an added cast time?

Are you talking about the out-of-combat ability available to all characters through Guild leveling? That's not a translation of the Paladin ability which is a combat-viable instant ability. You said exactly as is, and I'm pointing out why that is flawed.

You see, they added a cast time AND they made it out-of-combat, which fundamentally changes how the spell works. Just like they allow Mages to create portals as a form of 'Mass Teleportation', which is again meant for out-of-combat use and frankly doesn't really make Mages all that unique outside of Vanilla, where they were the only source of quick-travel to another city.

And you conveniently skip over Transmutation which is arguably the most broken ability you could think of for an MMORPG.

[bullseyed]

So whenever the class idea is suggested besides Tinker everyone just says «lol no its unholy dk with cloth»... bitch what?

Same way a holy priest is just a holy paladin with cloth? Same way a retribution paladin is an arms warrior that uses the light? Same way a fire mage is just a destruction warlock?

Ad far as I am aware, warlocks draw their powers from fel, arcane and the void. Necromancers however draw their powers from the shadow lands. Already we can confirm they are not the same as a warlock.

They use Ice magic, Poison and souls. Besides, the necromancer arcetype is not fleshed out yet, there are many things blizzard could do.

Poison - Alchemist
Ice - Lich
Souls - Death

In retrospect, yes it could be viewed as a cloth death knight, but many classes overlap already. Priest, Paladin and Warrior, specs with the same name and so one.

Hell, its not like blizzard can make new lore or anything. Before mop people saw Monk ad impossible because then a Monk was a brewmaster. What would they do? Have one Vodka spec, and one Whiskey? One Sake? No they became kung fu badasses. Same can be done with Necromancers

Blizzard intends for WoW and Diablo to have similarities across classes, which is why the monk in WoW ended up similar to the monk in Diablo.

A necromancer in WoW would need to be similar to the one in Diablo. There is already a lot of similarity between DK in WoW and necromancer in Diablo.


That's really the biggest hurdle. But it is an arbitrary one Blizzard could cast aside.

[Teriz]

Then you have a Warlock ability derivative. Not as unique as I figured.

Not really since it comes from a construct and not the caster, the robots are melee, and both the factory and the robots are upgradable.

Are you talking about the out-of-combat ability available to all characters through Guild leveling? That's not a translation of the Paladin ability which is a combat-viable instant ability. You said exactly as is, and I'm pointing out why that is flawed.

You see, they added a cast time AND they made it out-of-combat, which fundamentally changes how the spell works. Just like they allow Mages to create portals as a form of 'Mass Teleportation', which is again meant for out-of-combat use and frankly doesn't really make Mages all that unique outside of Vanilla, where they were the only source of quick-travel to another city.

I missed the part where I said that every ability from WC3 gets transferred to WoW with no alterations whatsoever.

And you conveniently skip over Transmutation which is arguably the most broken ability you could think of for an MMORPG.

Which part is broken? The insta-kill, or the loot?

[bullseyed]

I think they just need to edit unholy dk to be a caster
similar to warcraft 2

It wouldn't be bad to make DKs like Hunters and Shamans with a mix of melee and caster.

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there aren't that many pet/minion specs so there is definitely room for more of those.
and necromancy itself isn't any more objectionable than fel/void/demon magic etc other specs use.

it's just that unless we get a return of the lich king expansion, i don't see how they could set up a story hook for them, since the scourge is pretty much the only prominent undeath/necromancy related faction and they haven't been relevant in 10 years.

There aren't many, but one of them already has claimed the "undead pet" thing. The others have "demon pet" and "beast pet". So there is room for, say, "mechanical pet" but not "also undead pet" at the moment.

If they add necromancer, either necromancer or DK should get a "corpse lance" build, other than the issue that boss fights typically don't have piles of corpses like Diablo has.

Perhaps add it to DKs and take away "undead pet" to give necromancer the undead pet.

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They're not too similar

Blizzard is on the record saying they are. Personally I'll go with them over someguyontheinternet.

[cocomen2]

it's just that unless we get a return of the lich king expansion, i don't see how they could set up a story hook for them, since the scourge is pretty much the only prominent undeath/necromancy related faction and they haven't been relevant in 10 years.

What if Bolvar brought Vol`jin back to life , and used him to make Sylvanas warchief just to force us get rid of her , she is thorn in his @ss and can ruin his plans.

People say that in Vol`jin questline at BFA, we able to see burning eyes at each place where Vol`jin tries to learn who ressed him.

[bullseyed]

A necromancer is essentially a ranged dk in cloth. It's like saying ele and enh shams could be two different classes. By definition an unholy dk, or dks in general are necromancers.

Now you argue by comparing holy priests and paladins or locks and dh but there are very big differences if you look at them as classes and not just specs.

Priests have access to the void, even holy priests. Paladins on the other hand devote themselves to the light and light only.

Warlocks channel fel magic. Demon hunters are infused with a demon soul. Its like comparing a fire mage with a fire elemental.

Dks and necromancers would only differ in armor type. It would be best if they're introduced as a dk fourth spec or as a lock skin similar to green fire.

I'm not saying its impossible, theres a detailed necro concept in this forum that i was all over. Tinker would just give more to the game theme wise.

They're having enough issues with Unholy and Frost to add a 4th. They could just rename Unholy to Necromancer and make it ranged.

[TigTone]

They're having enough issues with Unholy and Frost to add a 4th. They could just rename Unholy to Necromancer and make it ranged.

They really should just make unholy a ranged plate spec. That way it can be a true necromancer spec.

[bullseyed]

Typical archetype of a nercomancer in most RPGs : dark, shadowy caster, uses curses/dots, summons pets to do their bidding, performs dark occult rituals in exchange power

That's pretty much also the Warlock archetype in a nutshell. That's mainly where people see too much overlap between them.

Warlocks are fel/demon though, not undead.

DK is the conflict with Necromancers, and Blizzard literally said there will be no necromancer because they turned their necromancer hero class into the DK by adding Runemaster hero class to it.

[Amunrasonther]

Yes, and they aren't connected. The expansion classes tend to come from one organization, not multiple spread out over different cultures.

So then you admit you see the prevalence of alchemy within necromancy, good. We weren't talking about where expansion classes come from. We were talking about the use of nature magic, poison, and alchemy within necromancy. Not to mention, 80% of the Necromantic alchemy I showed you originates from the Scourge.

Which mad scientists in game are also creating robots? Also, which tinkers in game are also throwing potion bombs, creating ooze minions, and spraying harmful chemicals?

You have an quote error here for my response with no response of your own.

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=73095/blackfuse-engineer

That's one ability. Most Necromancer NPCs in game cast shadowbolt - that doesn't make them warlocks. Also the other spell is not a potion bomb nor anywhere near the same as the Goblin Alchemist ability.

Death Knights have already been shown to be able to create ooze minions;

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Unholy_Mutation

Not created through alchemy, and no longer exists. Probably because it didn't fit their theme. There have been tons of abilities pruned by Blizzard because they felt it was out of their class fantasy.

[Jastall]

They really should just make unholy a ranged plate spec. That way it can be a true necromancer spec.

Wouldn't even need to redesign it that much even. If you take Clawing Shadows, Unholy has something like 3 or 4 melee-only abilities (Festering Strike, Death Strike, Apocalypse, Soul Reaper which is a talent). Everything else is ranged or some sort of summon.

[bullseyed]

We don't need Necromancers in WoW.

According to Blizzard we already have necromancers in WoW. They're called Death Knights.

They should either make Unholy ranged or give frost a "Lich Form" option to refresh DKs.