No Ret Pallies

[Gaidax]

Wanna go through the other classes this applies to? Cos basically 80% of them suffer from these problems. By your rationale it's pointless to play virtually anything in pvp that isn't a mage or rogue.

No... 80% did not suffer from not having slow AND movement speed increase same time.

That was virtually only issue for Paladin and Priest.

For "ret" paladin that was a killer because they were melee and got kited to death, literally and what's worse they could not even do any sort of real attrition fighting because their piddly blue bar was enough for couple of heals after which said paladin was a sitting duck. Almost every class aside from Priests could chain CC and kite paladin to death and Priests could simply burn away his piddly mana bar in couple of casts and then dispel all buffs at which point it was RIP anyway.


And you say they were "beastly in World PvP"... are you real? It was auto loss vs Priest, Mage, Warlock, Hunter and Rogue in World PvP because 3 of them could reset fight 500 times until paladin runs oom and has no cds, while 4th simply dispelled and mana burned paladin to death within a fear and 5th simply could kite said paladin to Orgrimmar and back forever.

[Heathy]

if ppl want to play it who cares you just said it yourself that you played it, so because you found it boring everyone else automatically will too.

if someone is determined to play as ret thats really on them. if you can find a guild willing to take you along, who cares, its really not the massive deal ppl are making it out to be. you can always respecc. what can't they do exactly, the same dps as a pure? sure they might not be able to, but they can do some dps and that is the point i'm trying to make.

if you end up, with too many paladins, and you already have enough healers, and noone else to fill spots, taking a retri pala is better than taking less players. filling the raid is more important than min maxing said raid if you are only just able to fill that raid. the context matters here, not just assuming every scenario is going to be the same. some guilds will end up with more of one class than another, some player will miss raids, some ppl will have to sit out and substitute, some ppl may have to respec. taking a ret pala into t1 and t2 content is not going to be the difference between that raid failing and succeeding, having a retri paladin in a raid, is not going to diminish the chances of you downing bosses. you will still make kills with a retri pala in your raid team.

all this shit about 'aMg It'S ThE eND TiMeS ReTrI paLAs In RAids' really if you're not cutting edge pushing for world first it won't matter at all if you have a retri pala in your raid. i'd rather take a chill guy who plays retri, and is generally a sound dude, over any of the elitists in this thread. fuck i'd carry 20 retri palas through molten core just to piss off the elitists in this thread.

[Shiny212]

No... 80% did not suffer from not having slow AND movement speed increase same time.

That was virtually only issue for Paladin and Priest.

For "ret" paladin that was a killer because they were melee and got kited to death, literally and what's worse they could not even do any sort of real attrition fighting because their piddly blue bar was enough for couple of heals after which said paladin was a sitting duck. Almost every class aside from Priests could chain CC and kite paladin to death and Priests could simply burn away his piddly mana bar in couple of casts and then dispel all buffs at which point it was RIP anyway.

OH, so all melee classes couldn't be kited easy a peach by say a mage or a hunter? You're upset mana burn was good vs retri? Well it's useless vs a warrior, maybe this is just a cool interaction in the game and something to watch out for, instead of crying like a baby about not being equally matched vs all matchups.

A paladin with a big sword can easily crush fellow melee dps, because hey, they're gonna have to hit you to try and kill you, and no they won't all be able to snare you and run away, unless you just suck at pvp. Guess what, you'll even be able to kill ranged dps, if you're clever.

See I remember warrior being completely countered a frost mage in 1v1, almost like the game wasn't balanced around 1v1.

Your entire line of reasoning is basically: Retri paladins won't win a duel tournament, therefore playing a retri paladin is a waste of time to ALL PLAYERS, and it's your solemn duty to protect everyone else from thinking there's more to the game than fighting exact equal skill players in duels.

[iosdeveloper]

Good, good, keep spreading this shit. The fewer ret paladins there are, the better for me. Being an amazing ret paladin means you will do the DPS of a shitty mage and that's never a problem if you are an amazing ret paladin playing alongside lots of shitty mages. The problem you goons have is that you are comparing very good and geared players of better specs against shitty random scrubass paladins. Of course they're going to blow them out of the water. They would do so even if ret wasn't shit. The thing is that again, very good players of an awful spec will absolutely outperform baddies of better specs. You'd think there isn't anything to fuck up but there is always terrible players of good specs and people like me will outdo them and crawl into raids. It will happen and then there will be people crying, as ever, that I get 'their gear' and be fucking mad. It's going to be glorious.

I never played Ret in Vanilla because it was shit and Holy is so fucking good. I'm going to do it now because I don't care and I want to be a cunt that soaks up gear from being shit because if there's something 14 years of raiding has taught me, it's garbage people that get good gear so that's my secret to success.

you won't outperform afk hunter, lol

guys, we told you so
misery and disapointment that's coming will be on you

notice how people that mained ret in Vanilla are very aggressive about rets being totally useless - we might know shit, right?

[Gaidax]

OH, so all melee classes couldn't be kited easy a peach by say a mage or a hunter? You're upset mana burn was good vs retri? Well it's useless vs a warrior, maybe this is just a cool interaction in the game and something to watch out for, instead of crying like a baby about not being equally matched vs all matchups.

A paladin with a big sword can easily crush fellow melee dps, because hey, they're gonna have to hit you to try and kill you, and no they won't all be able to snare you and run away, unless you just suck at pvp. Guess what, you'll even be able to kill ranged dps, if you're clever.

See I remember warrior being completely countered a frost mage in 1v1, almost like the game wasn't balanced around 1v1.

Your entire line of reasoning is basically: Retri paladins won't win a duel tournament, therefore playing a retri paladin is a waste of time to ALL PLAYERS, and it's your solemn duty to protect everyone else from thinking there's more to the game than fighting exact equal skill players in duels.

If by "all melee" you mean Warriors then yes it's "all melee".

Paladin's big sword could not do shit, because damage it output was pure RNG and because literally every class could simply get away anyway. Unlike in case of Warrior, for example.

Yes. Warrior had hard counter with Frost Mage... but you know what? At least it's not fucking 5 hard counters simply because you could not do shit against kite and mana burn/drain dispel spam.


"Beastly in World PvP" - you fucking have no clue - paladins were literal joke in World PvP to the point there were memes about that back then. How to reduce Paladin DPS by 100%? Just run in circles around it laughing, because they can't do shit about it.

[Helenius]

If you join my guild, I will gladly tank for you ret pallies

[Shiny212]

If by "all melee" you mean Warriors then yes it's "all melee".

Paladin's big sword could not do shit, because damage it output was pure RNG and because literally every class could simply get away anyway. Unlike in case of Warrior, for example.

Yes. Warrior had hard counter with Frost Mage... but you know what? At least it's not fucking 5 hard counters simply because you could not do shit against kite and mana burn/drain dispel spam.

There's really nothing stopping a mage from kiting rogues or enhancement either.

People cant very well get away if you're CCd, paladins have some, check it out, cant very well slow you if you're immune or have it removed. You say you "cant do anything", there's lots of things you can do. I count 2 classes that can mana drain, another 2 than can purge, 1 overlaps, and none of those mechanics are "i win buttons" vs a paladin.

There absolutely are some really unfair matchups in vanilla in a 1v1 scenario, but tbh, retri paladin is nowhere near the bottom here. Rogues make life much worse for priests or warlocks than anything can do to a retri.

"Beastly in World PvP" - you fucking have no clue - paladins were literal joke in World PvP to the point there were memes about that back then. How to reduce Paladin DPS by 100%? Just run in circles around it laughing, because they can't do shit about it.

Then cast repentance, 1shot them and teabag the corpse. Easy, this will happen, check out youtube in a month.

[nodlimax]

Not sure if it was already mentioned in this threat, but anyway:

Ret Paladins - if I play warrior and have to tank in dungeons most of the time, do you think I'd take a Ret Paladin into my group? They'd roll on the same gear I want. So why should I take the competition with me - especially when I could get a rogue, hunter, mage or warlock instead? I'm just saying that personally I wouldn't be very motivated to have ret paladins in my group...

The same btw. would probably happen with prot paladins and fury warriors...

[Shiny212]

Not sure if it was already mentioned in this threat, but anyway:

Ret Paladins - if I play warrior and have to tank in dungeons most of the time, do you think I'd take a Ret Paladin into my group? They'd roll on the same gear I want. So why should I take the competition with me - especially when I could get a rogue, hunter, mage or warlock instead? I'm just saying that personally I wouldn't be very motivated to have ret paladins in my group...

The same btw. would probably happen with prot paladins and fury warriors...

This is so far the only captivating reasoning for not playing paladin, you share gear with warrior, which is tough.

[Nyel]

There's a reason why the bubble + hearthstone meme was a thing.

[Phaine]

with your mindset blizz might aswell remove all classes minus one, the best performing class, lets all play the same class

[Gaidax]

There's really nothing stopping a mage from kiting rogues or enhancement either.

People cant very well get away if you're CCd, paladins have some, check it out, cant very well slow you if you're immune or have it removed. You say you "cant do anything", there's lots of things you can do. I count 2 classes that can mana drain, another 2 than can purge, and none of those mechanics are "i win buttons" vs a paladin.

There absolutely are some really unfair matchups in vanilla in a 1v1 scenario, but tbh, retri paladin is nowhere near the bottom here. Rogues make life much worse for priests or warlocks than anything can do to a retri.

Mana Burn and Drain are absolute 1 button win right there and you will realize this soon enough. Ret paladin's lifeline is his piddly blue bar - once it's gone it's the end.

In case of warlocks it was simply Fear spam drain, devour, gg. Warlock was literally one matchup that simply was an absolute 100% win rate vs paladin right there no negotiations, especially Engineer Warlock. In case of priests it was scream, burn dispel and then gg.

Mages could just sheep and drink forever, resetting fight however they need in WPvP vs Paladin. Rogues can bait bubble, Vanish and come back to finish off helpless "Ret" Paladin.

That's literally 4 completely hopeless matchups in WPvP already. "Beastly WPvP" there buddeh.

[endorus]

To all the people mad at the op: Most people care about being useful. Doing 25% of the damage of a pure dps is not useful. So most people won't like it.

If you're going into it saying "Well, I know im going to be a burden, and not that great, and i'm ok with that" then fine. A weird way to play the game, but who am I.

I'm all about this.

Personally I want to bring something to a group, whether that be niche or pure numbers. I would accept most people (of any class/spec) into a group with me unless there are specifics that need to be adhered to. That said I won't be playing a Ret because I feel they are boring, too quirky and lacking. If somebody finds fun in playing that, power to them, someone will accept them into a group/guild/raid, as they did in Vanilla. It's just not for me and likely not the spec for most of the playing population.

[iosdeveloper]

with your mindset blizz might aswell remove all classes minus one, the best performing class, lets all play the same class

World of Warcraft is meant to be played as Warrior, yes

[Anastacy]

No amount of “muh game knowledge” will change the fact that Ret was hard-coded in lacking fundamental mechanics and poor numbers tuning.

If you can get into a guild that will accept you as a Ret Pally, hey...more power to ya! But understand that that is likely to be the exception, not the rule.

[Unholyground]

Repentance only works against humanoids, and any spec gets HOJ. I rather have a Holy Pally contribute to CC with HOJ while having full healing capability.

You are going to be disappointed, and if you start kicking people because of spec all the time you will get blacklisted soon enough and I hope you like playing for name changes.

[Shiny212]

Mana Burn and Drain are absolute 1 button win right there and you will realize this soon enough. Ret paladin's lifeline is his piddly blue bar - once it's gone it's the end.

In case of warlocks it was simply Fear spam drain, devour, gg. In case of priests it was scream, burn dispel and then gg.

Mages could just sheep and drink forever, resetting fight however they need in WPvP vs Paladin. Rogues can bait bubble, Vanish and come back to finish off helpless "Ret" Paladin.

That's literally 4 completely hopeless matchups in WPvP already. "Beastly WPvP" there buddeh.

What's that priest do when you trinket the fear? He runs for his life or he dies, you use repentance, he trinkets, you stun, he's dead.

Not gonna pretend your chances are good vs mage, but it can be done if you're clever and outskill the mage. Blessing of freedom pretty good.

"Rogues can bait bubble". Course they CAN bait it, don't be baited then. You wear plate and can weather alot of rogue dmg, trinket 1 kidney, bubble the next, when rogue trinket is down and he doesn't pre-evasion, DEAD in 1 HoJ.

It's really not "impossible" at all in the way it's impossible to beat a rogue as a priest for example, you're complaining about nothing tbh.

[Necromantic]

oh f*** off, enough of this attitude, don't bring your mythic+ min/maxing mentality to Classic. YOU'RE the one that won't be invited to 5mans. let people enjoy and play what they want, you're literally NO ONE to tell others what they should play or not play

No kidding. All the tryhards who have that ridiculous mindset that unless you're a class/spec that will zip zip zip through an instance, you're not worth it are hilarious.

Newsflash! There is no timer in classic. You can enjoy yourself and play the class/spec you want.

Unlike you, I mained paladin in Vanilla all the way to Naxx.

I am literally doing charity work here for people who might get baited by these silly goose stories about how Ret Paladins could somehow magically be not useless and how they had such oh amazing utility or how they apparently were good in World PvP... etc... etc... by telling how it really was.

If I can discourage a person from wasting his time and effort trying to do something Paladin mechanically can't in Vanilla - I consider my job done here.


Some loonies of course will go ahead and go forward with it and then realize half way in that they have fucked it up, but well - can't save everyone here.

But your charity isn't needed. If someone wants to play it, they can. Classic is not changing. Many of us know how it is. We're not at the stage if it's existence where many are trying to min/max in order to finish this "brand new" content. Lots (not all) people playing Classic will already have a proficient knowledge. Heck, people were already talking about those who 5-man'd Onyxia or beat 40 man raids with almost half a raid. We're surely not in any danger of letting "less-than-amazing" specs participate.

[Gaidax]

What's that priest do when you trinket the fear? He runs for his life or he dies, you use repentance, he trinkets, you stun, he's dead.

Not gonna pretend your chances are good vs mage, but it can be done if you're clever and outskill the mage.

"Rogues can bait bubble". Course they CAN bait it, don't be baited then. You wear plate and can weather alot of rogue dmg, trinket 1 kidney, bubble the next, when rogue trinket is down and he doesn't pre-evasion, DEAD in 1 HoJ.

It's really not "impossible" at all in the way it's impossible to beat a rogue as a priest for example, you're complaining about nothing tbh.

Priest will simply do the same thing you would do, drop shadow form and heal up your piddly damage if needed while burning you.

Don't be baited by rogue? They will take your HP to 0 and you won't be able to do shit about it unless you bubble because they can interrupt each and every heal otherwise thanks to mind-numbing poison and 500 stuns, mezzes and interupt. Bubble is inevitable and once it's gone they just get away and come back a minute later.

I can see you have no vanilla experience whatsoever, these above were textbook things pretty much.

[Heathy]

Wrong.

Every guild will have a boss they struggle with.

Every guild, no matter their progress, will at some point start becoming extremely aware of the weakpoints they have and where they can improve. As a guild leader you will either be forced to act upon that or risk your guild being taken over by the crowd that does care about min-maxing and getting shit down.

Off-specs are not viable in raiding in Classic.

If you want viable off-spec raiding you'll have to wait until WotLK.

and until you hit that struggle point and start farming gear? you can always do you substitions around the boss you struggle on, so you don't have enough dps for that boss, but you would if you swapped out the retri? then you do that. you ask ppl if they can respec. again everyone needs to stop assuming that every scenario involving a retri pala is the exact same scenario. ppl can play ret one raid, respec for the next raid. you can have ppl change spec depending on basically how many healers you have that day.

all of the bosses are gear checks, we killed vael with a retri pala in the raid. whats next, nefarian? whatever boss you struggle on, either you need a comp shift or you need more gear outright, so more farming. again ill say it for the final time, you can take a retri pala into your raids and clear content, assuming you farm enough gear to meet the dps check, if you don't want a retri pala in your raid team, don't recruit one. problem solved. if you have no intention of raiding with someone who is ret, this thread is obviously not applicable to you, because they won't be in your raid, so you have nothing to worry about.

when the content is eternal, ie, it will be there until the server shuts down and it won't be replaced by tbc, you can raid 1 day a week and get to naxx. there is no real rush to reach the end when you have unlimited lockouts, you can farm t1 until everyone is full t1. if you really wanted to. you are not against a clock of limited lockouts until the next expansion, if the server stays up for a decade you have a decade to reach naxx.

because of the legendaries, if you do decide to raid, you'll likely be clearing molten core until you quit playing. even when you out gear it by a substantial margin. at some point those raids are gunna be alt raids. but ppl are gunna want those legendaries even after you get one or two, someones gunna want the 3rd and even the 4th and 5th. so you'll be farming molten core forever. if you think you won't end up with a retri pala in your raids eventually, even as an alt, you're naive, if you think ppl won't take paladins through to t3 and spend time collecting gear to maximise the output of a retri pala, you are naive. if it can be done, some ppl will try to do it. for the sake of doing it.