M: Queen Azshara 14 (0.08%)

[Malefic]

These nerfs are honestly whack. The only nerf that is justified here is the P1 change to add grace period on the enrage and of course the arcane vulnerability refreshing whilst LoS.

Indomitable push was easy and mistress push was easy too.

[KaPe]

These nerfs are honestly whack. The only nerf that is justified here is the P1 change to add grace period on the enrage and of course the arcane vulnerability refreshing whilst LoS.

Indomitable push was easy and mistress push was easy too.

Was that "easy", or "easy if you have two discs/holy pala"? Because that's also something to consider.

[Malefic]

Was that "easy", or "easy if you have two discs/holy pala"? Because that's also something to consider.

I guess maybe when you consider the double disc/holy pala it's arguable.

The mistress situation was fine though because even without those you're making the DPS check on the first and the 2nd can be compensated with classes that can stay behind and immune the beam, which is quite a few classes. I wouldn't be surprised to see within the next week or so guilds killing the 2nd add before the 2nd shield in which case you can just skip a whole spear/shatter combo. P3 add is just about control and there's no DPS check there you're just wasting time until 3m have passed and the boss is as close to 50% as possible.

[MrLachyG]

If we compare how many guilds have downed a boss in EP (N or above) to Uldir at the some point (41 days after release), the number is down more than 50%.

source? /10char

[Osmeric]

source? /10char

You can get this from wowprogress.com, if you dig a bit.

Compare

https://www.wowprogress.com/encounte...-sivara-normal

vs.

https://www.wowprogress.com/encounte...d/first/next/1

(editing the URL, replacing that last /1 with /<number> for some <number> that makes the date be the same number of days after release of the tier as EP has currently been out.)

[KaPe]

I guess maybe when you consider the double disc/holy pala it's arguable.

Well, there you go. These specs would add 30-40k dps in total, which is not a negligible amount. Healer balance is fucked right now, and while this doesn't really do much to fix the problem, it does add some amount of flexibility. You'll still be gimped by taking "lesser" specs, but maybe the dps check won't screw you over.

[Poe]

If we compare how many guilds have downed a boss in EP (N or above) to Uldir at the some point (41 days after release), the number is down more than 50%.

That's actually pretty sad but not surprising. Uldir was released near the beginning of the expansion during the new expansion hype phase when sub numbers are always higher compared to later on.

[bullseyed]

Dont think the problem is its difficulty but rather the playerbase.

For years now every content including heroic raid is a rushtfiesta. Nearly every halfway decent 420+ Pug 1shots 7/8 Heroic just a few weeks into it.
No communication, no big dps nor brain really needed.

Let alone all the gear flood+titanforgus from m+/normal and so on.

People all get treated like some demigods that roll over everything and now suddenly they should be willing to wipe for hours on a mythic boss? Nope they cba. So many people in this game like to sit in the comfort zone and just play the "casual" card on anything that requires more than 2button and rather play some activity/collection simulator.


So the amount of player who are interested in challenging content to take over the spots of people who quit the game because of various reason is way lower.

And for everything below mythic there isnt even a reason to have a guild because you can just pug it anytime without any communication or anything needed =)

Agree that the lack of difficulty/progression within a raid tier is a problem.

Getting Ashvane down for "an AOTC guild" should take several weeks of farming the first 3 bosses, for example.

A mythic or CE guild should still steamroll heroic and get on to mythic quickly.

There isn't any progression within a tier (outside of mythic) but rather progression between difficulties (normal -> heroic for casual guilds). But a heroic guild steamrolls normal, steamrolls most of heroic, and then breaks up trying to get M Sivara in the current raid design.

If "heroic" guilds were going to get locked out of the first mythic boss loot pinata, they should have done something with heroic to compensate and keep those people entertained. Then again, maybe they're meant to quit for classic.

[Osmeric]

At this point, 46 days after the release of the tier, the number of guilds that have downed M Sivara is just 1/3 of those that downed M Taloc.

I don't recall M raiding participation collapsing this much in any expansion for which we had data.

[shyguybman]

At this point, 46 days after the release of the tier, the number of guilds that have downed M Sivara is just 1/3 of those that downed M Taloc.

I don't recall M raiding participation collapsing this much in any expansion for which we had data.

It might be the fact that Sivara is significantly harder than Taloc, Champions and even the next 2 bosses in the same raid. Even on Heroic for the first 3-4 weeks I pugged it on an alt and I don't think I had a kill with 50% of the raid alive by the end.

[Osmeric]

It might be the fact that Sivara is significantly harder than Taloc, Champions and even the next 2 bosses in the same raid. Even on Heroic for the first 3-4 weeks I pugged it on an alt and I don't think I had a kill with 50% of the raid alive by the end.

Oh, undoubtedly. These stable genius game designers probably thought something like "players are getting the same ilvl gear from the early M bosses as is dropped by the later ones, and they don't deserve that, so let's make even the early bosses harder".

I hope they have the grace to not be surprised when M raiding participation implodes. These guilds, which were most of the guilds doing M content, are not going to keep bothering with M raiding.

[Laqweeta]

Fiasco? Not at all. You've got gear upgrades, neck upgrades coming up ( 3rd minor slot at 65 which offers a ton of dps increase ) and i am fine with Azhara being the way she is till top 100 leaderbord is full.

P.S. Mythic raiders switching to full-time Classic, yeah right lulz

Perhaps not full time, but I'm sure they'll play on the droughts of retail. They'll go back to retail during the major patch releases for all of the 1 to 2 weeks it takes to clear the raids, and then back to classic for 5-6 months.

[sil3ntearth]

Agree that the lack of difficulty/progression within a raid tier is a problem.

Getting Ashvane down for "an AOTC guild" should take several weeks of farming the first 3 bosses, for example.

A mythic or CE guild should still steamroll heroic and get on to mythic quickly.

There isn't any progression within a tier (outside of mythic) but rather progression between difficulties (normal -> heroic for casual guilds). But a heroic guild steamrolls normal, steamrolls most of heroic, and then breaks up trying to get M Sivara in the current raid design.

If "heroic" guilds were going to get locked out of the first mythic boss loot pinata, they should have done something with heroic to compensate and keep those people entertained. Then again, maybe they're meant to quit for classic.

That's exactly what happens in my guild. We steamroll heroic, but our issue is we don't have 20 people that are dedicated enough to do mythic...low server population/more casual server. You also have to find the people that are essentially willing to abandon their alts due to the amount of work you have to put into one class and even one spec to be ready for mythic. We will eventually do Mythic (in a week or two), but we need the people first. In the meantime we'll keep on murdering heroic and pushing keys.

It sucks, I really want to do mythic...just can't right now. If we could have done it with 18, we would have.

[voxnor]

Perhaps not full time, but I'm sure they'll play on the droughts of retail. They'll go back to retail during the major patch releases for all of the 1 to 2 weeks it takes to clear the raids, and then back to classic for 5-6 months.

Today's mythic raiding makes classic look like a toddlers fit-the-shape-in-the-hole game. Checkout the world first kill of ragnaros from that rogue's perspective, it's worth the lols. Among the highlights:

- Standing doing nothing for the opener to wait for tank threat
- A two button rotation, with occasional use of Feint where he actually CLICKS it with his mouse
- Multiple people dying
- Chatting during the attempt because it requires so little attention

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br1hXGXJ7Tg

Sure, some folks who mythic raid today may be interested in Classic. But its a fair point to assume many will not given the VAST difference in challenge.

[Marrilaife]

Oh, undoubtedly. These stable genius game designers probably thought something like "players are getting the same ilvl gear from the early M bosses as is dropped by the later ones, and they don't deserve that, so let's make even the early bosses harder".

Holy shit, I usually agree with you, but this is just stupid. How can you defend "mythic" bosses like Taloc and Champions of the Light that were not only easier than heroic end bosses, but than heroic mid-bosses? Pugs made of people who couldn't pass heroic Zul could kill mythic Taloc, pugs that couldn't pass heroic Conclave of Loa would steamroll Champions of the Light.

Sorry, 1st boss on mythic shouldn't be a loot pinata, that's what world bosses are for. "Mythic" raiding participation shouldn't be boosted by free weapon dispensers like these 2 bosses. 1st boss on mythic should be a small step up after finishing heroic, not a big chasm of difficulty (look: Crucible of Storms), but also a gauge whether your guild is ready for mythic.

I feel bosses like Nythendra and Garothi Worldbreaker were a good example of an entry mythic boss, not overcomplicated, but neither steamrollable by pugs from week 1.

Making mythic raiding "accessible" by making it easier than heroic seriously defeats the purpose. The gradation of difficulty levels is there for a reason.

[Osmeric]

Holy shit, I usually agree with you, but this is just stupid. How can you defend "mythic" bosses like Taloc and Champions of the Light that were not only easier than heroic end bosses, but than heroic mid-bosses? Pugs made of people who couldn't pass heroic Zul could kill mythic Taloc, pugs that couldn't pass heroic Conclave of Loa would steamroll Champions of the Light.

I can defend them because without them, M participation collapses.

Would you rather I cheered the growing irrelevance of M raiding to the game, and warmly and happily predicting its removal?

It's astounding you can be defending this. The effect of this is to cause those lesser M raiding guilds -- which were most M raiding guilds -- to just give up on M raiding. A good number of them will take this as an opportunity to give up on the game, too.

[Marrilaife]

I can defend them because without them, M participation collapses.

Would you rather I cheered the growing irrelevance of M raiding to the game, and warmly and happily predicting its removal?

It's astounding you can be defending this. The effect of this is to cause those lesser M raiding guilds -- which were most M raiding guilds -- to just give up on M raiding. A good number of them will take this as an opportunity to give up on the game, too.

So the best way to encourage people to raid mythic is to make it easier than heroic? What's the point then? Might as well indeed remove mythic. Mythic devoid of any difficulty is as pointless as mythic tuned around world top 10 guilds. One is a glorified heroic and we might as well just have heroic with more bosses in it, better use of dev time, another is having abysmal participation rates, so also a waste of devs effort. How about actually something in the middle? Mythic bosses that are a step up from heroic, not a step down or a gigantic leap?

[Osmeric]

So the best way to encourage people to raid mythic is to make it easier than heroic?

The rule they are violating here is: never make content harder. When you do that, it's like taking something away from players. They don't react well.

The point, btw, is to make money. There is no other point to anything in this game. It's why the game even exists. Driving players away doesn't make them money. If you think they should stick to game design dogma even if it's negatively affecting the game as a business enterprise, then you are being ridiculous.

[Marrilaife]

The rule they are violating here is: never make content harder. When you do that, it's like taking something away from players. They don't react well.

The point, btw, is to make money. There is no other point to anything in this game. It's why the game even exists. Driving players away doesn't make them money. If you think they should stick to game design dogma even if it's negatively affecting the game as a business enterprise, then you are being ridiculous.

You are being ridiculous, at this point might as well hand out free loot for logging in, that will surely make players feel rewarded?

Seriously, how can you justify having difficulty ladder where an upper step is lower difficulty than the previous step. It's plain out misleading, and also unfair.

Also if they actually cared to "never take anything away from players", they wouldn't take away flying purchasable for 5k gold day 1 of expansion, they wouldn't take away mission tables printing millions of gold for altoholics, they wouldn't take away 300% RAF xp bonus and all the other things they took away because it made people "finish" their in-game goals faster and play less, no matter how convenient and popular these features were.

If anything, getting BIS weapon from the 1st boss on "mythic" makes people less inclined to stick through and finish heroic or any other content that yields lesser rewards. The rewards from bosses deeper in the instance should actually be improved so people would be more interested to stick through the more complex encounters instead of just picking the low hanging fruits then bailing out. And it used to be the case in many raids, I remember in Firelands, Dragon Soul, Hellfire Citadel and Nighthold end boss would drop higher ilvl items, often BIS trinkets or weapons. Having bosses like Ghuun or Jaina drop fuck all of interest is an absolute letdown for the effort they require for the group to kill no matter what difficulty level. Heck, they had to move GMOD mount drop chance in lfr from Merka to Jaina just so people don't bail after 1 boss.

[Laqweeta]

Today's mythic raiding makes classic look like a toddlers fit-the-shape-in-the-hole game. Checkout the world first kill of ragnaros from that rogue's perspective, it's worth the lols. Among the highlights:

- Standing doing nothing for the opener to wait for tank threat
- A two button rotation, with occasional use of Feint where he actually CLICKS it with his mouse
- Multiple people dying
- Chatting during the attempt because it requires so little attention

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br1hXGXJ7Tg

Sure, some folks who mythic raid today may be interested in Classic. But its a fair point to assume many will not given the VAST difference in challenge.

Okay.

They’re still going to play Classic, as I’ve said. They’ll go back to retail for the 1 or 2 weeks it takes to clear MYTHIC (usually less than 2 weeks). And play Classic. Sorry?