Classic WoW Ragnaros World First 1st week

[LazarusLong]

and this is what i mean, you're not interested in educating yourself, you just wanna be snarky and hope you're right.

you're not.

EVERY SINGLE CLASS had been revamped between release and 1.12. talents were streamlined/improved/buffed and EVERY SINGLE CLASS got boosts to survivability and throughput. leveling had been streamlined with more flight points, mob pathing was a bit more contained with a few mixed in with the old paths (mobs used to roam about 5x as much which meant you were constantly pulling something else), gear stat budgets were bumped up a bit from 1-60 with level 50-60 gear getting an even larger bump. drop rates were modified for a ton of things too which increased the overall power level just due to the fact that better gear was more readily available

if you've been around at all you know that 6 months before a new expansion drops is "catch up" time and it's always been that way, this was the first version of it. classes did more damage and healing, had better regen, threat reduction was overall worse but as long as casters stayed out of melee range threat wasn't a big deal because tanks had more consistent rage generation to keep threat up (overall, the difference in tank threat and non-tank threat was larger than it had been but it was a gradual change throughout the patches)

this was the "all right we got everything in vanilla the way we want it. we can now work on BC"

You were saying, specifically, that the game was nerfed in 1.12, but when I proved you wrong you started to talk about other patches. Gotcha.

[Frozenbro]

this isn't vanilla, it's classic and it's not the same game. the hardest part back then was getting enough competent, geared people together long enough to do something. naxx had gear/skill checks but by 1.12, BWL guilds were 5manning ony even though they couldn't kill but 2 or 3 bosses in naxx

Then what are you going to say when Apes stomps all the upcoming classic raids? Molten Core was nerfed cause of changes up to patch 1.12, but what if they stomp everything else? cause they will, no more "muh vanilla was hard for the real gamers" meme anymore i assume.

[Alphatorg]

How is that even remotly true? In retail bad players feel as good because a lot of the content is still also just stat check content with some training. Most players can do LFR and then normals and even heroes just by investing time not skill. Only mythic requires skill but that one gets often just checked like in classic, RNG. After 40 tries everything falls in line and done. You kill a boss by looking for the try where everything is working. It was the exact same before.

I did raid in many wow versions from classic and BC to Wotlk, cata and MOP. the raid content was not easier or harder, it was just different due to addons and their power. DBM these days tells you when you have to move and where to move. back then it told you estimated timers that could be around 5-10 sec off.

Doing content where you know every exploit (fire restistance buff due to mind control), have trained for years (private servers) and now also have the addon power that wasn't there back then, yes, Classic rading is easy. And then you also have to consider that with many of the class reworks aroun 1.08-1.10 many classes became stronger and so did raid buffs. MC was mostly balanced around release and a ton changed till 1.12. It would be like raiding with the pre addon patch (raiding in Legion with the BFA patch live)

Retail is quite upfront about skill differences, be it arena ratings, be it mythic plus levels, be it raid difficulty, be it the demand for score/logs. You're constantly reminded and in/ex-cluded based on how good/bad you are.
Classic on the other hand cuts off difficulty somewhere at or below LFR level and it puts a huge emphasis on trivial content.

[Frozenbro]

MC was mostly balanced around release and a ton changed till 1.12. It would be like raiding with the pre addon patch (raiding in Legion with the BFA patch live)

Then what about Mythic KJ after being nerfed to oblivion? people still avoid it like the plague and you know why, cause its a difficulty lvl that classic will never ever achieve, time to realize that classic is indeed for the same babies that clear LFR on retail.

[Xyltin-Laav]

You think there were no boss addons in Vanilla?

lulz

there were, but they were worse in what they offered and especially during the first MC raids there were none or just manual timers.

[KaPe]

You think there were no boss addons in Vanilla?

lulz

Some of these people believe that Vanilla was the epitome of skills, where raiders used only their instincts - which were, obviously, tuned to perfection by the grueling levelling process. Things like Decursive (or Healbot) never happened in their reality and boss mods were only made in TBC (or, more likely Wrath, since TBC appearently did require *some* tiny amount of skills), to completely trivialize any content. And seeing how DBM wasn't called DBM yet (La Vendetta Boss Mods, I think?), it *clearly* didn't exist.

[Xyltin-Laav]

Then what about Mythic KJ after being nerfed to oblivion? people still avoid it like the plague and you know why, cause its a difficulty lvl that classic will never ever achieve, time to realize that classic is indeed for the same babies that clear LFR on retail.

Or maybe because it doesn't offer something for most current players. Most boss mechanics are actually easy on their own and just combined with the mass and some other stuff they make them artificially hard but that can be overcome with time investment and gear still. But who cares about KJ these days? Most people that want to do it can do it.

And classic is definitely not about rading, it is about social interactions and experimenting. Yes, Classic mechanics is easy as fuck these days, but it is not like retial does it way better, the mechanics are a tick more complex but in the end they just have like 10 times as many mechanics. Is that better? No. It is jus more from the bad stuff to make it look not as bad.

- - - Updated - - -

Retail is quite upfront about skill differences, be it arena ratings, be it mythic plus levels, be it raid difficulty, be it the demand for score/logs. You're constantly reminded and in/ex-cluded based on how good/bad you are.
Classic on the other hand cuts off difficulty somewhere at or below LFR level and it puts a huge emphasis on trivial content.

Rly? When I wanted to raid Mythic I did even when I had a long break. It requires time and a good players but it wasn't that crazy.

Also, wow is not a game about difficulty in the first place. MMOs never are. It is about social interaction and solving problems in creative ways. Problem is that a ton of this creativity required is just void these days because you can watch it online and copy others. So Blizz swapped over to adding more mechanics to make it artificially harder.

And most LRF guys won't raid successfully in classic. Classic is still around normal difficulty if not higher. MC is easy but hey, the guys that did it were training for a long time on private servers and abused an exploit to make it happen. Also addons for bosses are way better these days and more common. Back in the old days timers during MC were mostly placed manually and only during BWL boss mods made a huge rise.

Go to AQ or Naxx and it is around heroic retail lvl. these raids were made with boss mods in mind and less exploitation because of the spreading of intel via the internet. Also all 3 raids are more balanced around the 1.10+ classes.

[Ashenfury]

Vanilla raids (especially the early ones) clearly had less mechanics than current content. I also don't think they were intended to require you to have 40 fully geared people with the optimal mix of classes operating at full capacity. With the exception for some key roles, not that much individual skill was needed. In my opinion that was an advantage since you could bring a fair number of nice but moderately skilled players and still have a reasonable chance at success. Vanilla required more organizational skills, but typically much less individual skills. That said, saying that vanilla as a whole was easier than LFR is ludicrous. For example, on some of the original EU servers, Naxx was not fully cleared until TBC was released.

[Whistl3r]

Who actually cares if classic is hard or not? People are playing and enjoying a nostalgic journey and thats all that matters.
It's not been recreated to challenge people. Scubs will still fail on shit just like they do on retail and skilled players will drag them through it just like on retail.
Well done to those who killed Raggy, its of no relevance to me at lvl 27 running around Ashenvale, loving life.

[Kolvarg]

Who actually cares if classic is hard or not?

Classic haters need to grasp at any straws they can

[greatmefisto]

You say that because you're clueless.

1. You've got zero clue how much effort it actually took to coordinate this that fast.

2. Classic is NOT VANILLA. We already know this objectively.

We didn't get world first vanilla, we got world first classic, and it was actually terribly scripted. That has nothing to do with vanilla.

That's your opinion not objectively known fact. Classic is the iteration of Vanilla on patch 1.12 and I don't see how it suddenly makes it brand new and diffrent game. Do you want to claim that Vanilla never had that patch or that the content was never beaten at that patch? Wasn't Blizzards goal to allow players to re-experience Vanilla with Classic servers?

[caribez]

Personally, I'm not good enough to be able to be part of a first week clear of MC. I don't see it as "classic is so easy" as much as "those people are really good players". I admire the achievement of all those people.

[Zantera]

The difficulty is pretty much always brought up by classic players as a reason why classic is superior to retail and naturally people who play retail will make a counter argument. Personally I don't care, i prefer retail because i want challenging content and I'm fine if people prefer classic where you can clear MC by oneshotting all bosses on the first night with several people not even level 60. Play what you want but don't try to bend the truth to reinforce your feelings about something.

[Grimbolt]

I think there is like 6 water elementals in Silitus that gives rep.

So combine Raid XP being broken, layer hoping, account sharing and having an unlimited amount of game time and you understand how they did it.

People should be upset it was killed so fast, but mostly because of the above and not the quality of the encounter it self.

[Lord Pebbleton]

You say that because you're clueless.

1. You've got zero clue how much effort it actually took to coordinate this that fast.

2. Classic is NOT VANILLA. We already know this objectively.

We didn't get world first vanilla, we got world first classic, and it was actually terribly scripted. That has nothing to do with vanilla.

So what immense changes are there between classic and vanilla? Color blind mode?
I don't know why you mention the effort to coordinate the whole ordeal. It was a successful one evidently and I have nothing to say about that.
I have been monitoring this forum for years. People wanted the original experience and that's what they got. So yes, classic IS vanilla, the main difference between the two iterations is that players aren't utter garbage now (and internet connections are generally better).

If you still think this has nothing to do with vanilla, you are the one that's clueless. The eternal argument was that vanilla was better, harder, faster, stronger. We now have definitive proof that it is not. It was just players being newbs and having fewer tools to research tje game/recruit the necessary people, and that's all outside of the game itself.

- - - Updated - - -

The only thing harder in retail is mythic raids. Every aspect of the game leading up to that point (leveling, professions, dungeons, outdoor content, every other raid difficulty, etc) is brain dead easy.

I disagree. The game might not be terribly hard nowadays aswell, but it has its moments. For example mythic, as you mentioned. Or dungeon bosses having actual tactics instead of swinging with the occasional mechanic thrown in like Van Cleef's adds.
Regardless, the argument was that vanilla was this incredible monstrosity of hardcore hardship. It has been proven it's not, and it's all on players.
I am level 20 in classic, and I am going forward slow, enjoying it. While I couldn't frickin kill Bellygrub at level 24 when it was current, I have killed him yesterday with no effort at all at level 19. We all just got better

- - - Updated - - -

Your post makes no sense whatsoever

"Vanilla raiding is harder than Retail" was never a common argument used, at least not on MMO-C

Why dont you QUOTE the person that told you so and have a nice "GOTCHA" moment in front of everyone?

I cannot quote anyone because I almost always refused to partake in those pointless wars about who has the longer wayner.
The vanilla > retail argument has popped up A LOT on MMOC, especially as of late. There were people that couldn't shut up about how vanilla was impossibly hard. Well, it's been proven now that the major difficulty came from players being new and clueless, so I just hope that particular crowd will stop with that nonsense.

[Ascius]

I cannot quote anyone because I almost always refused to partake in those pointless wars about who has the longer wayner.
The vanilla > retail argument has popped up A LOT on MMOC, especially as of late. There were people that couldn't shut up about how vanilla was impossibly hard. Well, it's been proven now that the major difficulty came from players being new and clueless, so I just hope that particular crowd will stop with that nonsense.

It's pointless to argue with these people. I do enjoy classic, but I enjoy it for what it is, a nostalgia trip. There was never any reason to believe what they believe - that classic was the most hardcore thing ever. For it's time it was easier than most mmo's too. The problem was as you say we all were clueless 15 years ago, completely.

Of course it's been many years now and I keep finding things I've forgotten, but a lot of basics of the game are exactly same. Unfortunately the "Vanilla" crowd thinks that battle.net integration and colorblind mode somehow made the game easier. In reality it was never hard, we were completely bad and starved for information and details and even if there was information back then, barely anyone looked it up, internet was a different beast. Not all of us even knew that we could use Thottbot... to find things - yes that was me until someone told me.

So as I've said countless times and been shot down for heresy. You could clear a MC with only retribution paladins in it, half of them blindfolded. You can play any class and spec and still do well, you might not be topping meters, but that's not the point. There is no point in min-maxing in Vanilla/Classic, because most content wasn't hard, it was lack of skill and most importantly knowledge. This clear proves it. And the delusional ones thinking that a heroic raid in retail is easier than vanilla... well I wonder what additives are in their icecream...

[LaserChild9]

Molten Core was always very easy. Anyone who did it would know.

It's a little bit easier on classic with 16 debuff slots and new talent trees.

The celebration over killing a boss they've already killed a hundred times and who was world firsted fifteen years ago is silly.

This is pretty much it. The simple fact is that Ragnaros was revealed, encountered and beaten over a decade ago, it's not like he had new tactics or mechanics. If I were to build a time machine, go back in time right to the beginning of WW2 and bring forward the Allied leaders to show them all of the records of battles, the strategies used by the nazis along with important locations etc, then dropped them back off where I found them with all of that info, how long do you think it would take them to win the war? I bet it would be pretty damn quick!

It's all well and good now saying "they said Classic was hard, they were wrong" but the fact is the people that did this have had over a decade to read the strategies and god knows how much practice on private servers, it's not like they went into it blind like those first raiders back in Vanilla, it's not comparable.

[Jastall]

Imagine being this retarded to actually not understand that MC by patch 1.12.1 was nerfed like 4 times and in fact was the first Raid in WoW to be EVER made.

And you think Uldir wasn't nerfed? Fetid was nerfed twice if memory serves, and G'huun at least three times. The point the other poster made is that Mythic raids would also be as easy as MC during the next expansion's pre-patch, which is a totally nonsensical claim.

Sure, MC was the first raid, and it's piss easy compared to most others. And that's fine, some people just seem to pretend it's not and try to bury the discussion in excuses. Every raid gets nerfed, not every raid is doable with half the group being less than level capped.

[Notdev]

Of course the elite 1% guilds are going to ROFLSTOMP the hell out of all Classic content.
They have been playing it for 15 years via private servers.
They know every strategy.
They know exactly how to split raids for optimal positioning, dps, heal, and mechanics avoidance.
They have every last detail memorized.

But the average casual player that maybe got into MC/BWL/ZG back in the day is not going to remember the strats or the positioning.
They won't have the muscle memory these elite guilds have.

Its going to take them a few tries to take down the content.
Its not hard, just takes herding 40 casuals, and for those 40 casuals to remember what to do.
That is the difficult part.
Players are better now, than before. But I am finding plenty of new players in Classic, with the same lack of knowledge as 2004.

I am interested on how the average guild is going to handle AQ40 and Naxx.
These raids did require people to pay attention.

Unfortunately, I sincerely doubt any "average guild" will ever reach AQ40/Naxx. Getting ready for those raids requires such a large time commitment that I doubt any guild that reaches them won't also take the time to look into the fights. Also a guild like Method, while they probably have a few people who have been playing on private servers for a bit, have mostly been playing on retail and definitely have not been raiding on private servers for 15 years. I'd expect them to 1 shot every classic boss as well.

Also, most people are calling it a joke not because they 1 shot it, but because of the state the raid was in when they 1 shot it. Half the raid wasn't even level capped, and they were all pretty much in greens. Even discounting the level cap part, you just aren't ever killing any recent mythic endboss, or even entry boss, while being that undergeared, no matter what patch it is, and no matter how long you've been doing the fight.

[Sastank]

"Classic end game is harder than retail."

Ok