LFG addon is not a bad idea.

[Kaver]

So the idea of grouping with strangers is different from grouping up via /2 spam? But you said you are not meant to group up via spamming /2 so shouldn’t we block /2 spamming because, as you said, it’s just as bad as LFG addon.

You’re correct that the purpose of spamming trade chat and using a LFG tool is both to group up with random people. And as mentioned before, you’re not meant to use either. You’re not meant to spam chat to find a group. Spamming trade chat is not the right way to find a group. Spamming trade chat is not the right way to find a group

Now... the difference between the two is that one is a tool made specifically to group up with random players while the other is a central part of the communication in the game. The chat is in the game for many different reasons while a LFG tool only has one purpose. You can very easily block LFG but you cannot really block players ability to chat.

You’re NOT meant to spam trade chat to find a group. Spamming trade chat is a BAD thing. You’re not meant to group up with random players to do dungeons

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Fixed that for you.

The only thing Blizzard explained is that they're attempting to preserve a very specific experience which is heavily predicated on nostalgia. Spamming global channels for groups is a massively inefficient and ineffective way to find a group. The only reason we did it back in vanilla is because there literally weren't better tools. And so Blizzard attempts to recreate that. NOT because it's good game design. But because it's recreating the idiocy of vanilla.

The problem with this is that Blizzard has already deviated from the idiocy of Vanilla game design in several other areas. So to claim that restricting other advances or tools "because vanilla" isn't a valid argument. It's hypocritical. It's inconsistent. It's not a valid argument.

Blizzard don’t want people to base grouping on random players. Therefore they want to block tools that allow grouping up with random players. It’s not about nostalgia. It’s about social dynamics. We should not treat other players as NPCs.

[StrawberryZebra]

The purpose of a LFG tool is to group up with random players to do dungeons. But you’re NOT meant to group up with random players for dungeons. The idea that you should spam trade chat to find a group is also completely wrong. You’re meant to group up with people from your friend list or guild. Simple. Therefore, a LFG tool goes completely against the intentions of the game like spamming LFG/LFM in trade chat also does.

Let's say you're right, and you're not ment to spam chat to find a group.

Where does that leave you when it comes to meeting new people and making new friends in game? If you're not going to group with anyone not already in your clique, you're never going to get to meet anyone new. That would mean no new people for your guild, because you'd never get the chance to get to know people. No new people for your friends list. As people drop out of the game, you'd gradually have a smaller and smaller pool of players you'd be playing with.

What you're advocating would create a very insular version of the game, where no one bothers to talk to anyone outside of their own little bubble. Is that what you'd want the game to look like? Because it would be the logical outcome of a stance like yours.

[SirCowdog]

I Millions of people agree. Millions of people want vanilla.

First, citation needed on the "Millions of people agree". You have no way to even prove how many people are playing Classic much less how many people agree.

Second is the same as the first: You have no way of knowing how many people want vanilla. Obviously people want Classic. But as I already stated, Classic is NOT vanilla. Blizzard has already deviated from Vanilla. This is why the claim that Vanilla, and all its idiosyncrasies, should be perfectly preserved is a deeply flawed argument.

So no, it's NOT valid.

They've also said thousands of times they know most of this is not good game design, but it's how it was in vanilla.

THEN WHY DID THEY CHANGE OTHER PARTS FOR CLASSIC?!!?

Fuck man. How do you guys not understand this? You keep making these arguments based on a completely and utterly false premise. But you keep pounding your face against the wall without even realizing it.

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Blizzard don’t want people to base grouping on random players.

Oh, then I guess they should just turn off Trade chat and all other global channels then. Do you work for blizzard? No. Stop speaking for them.

Continuing to spout bullshit doesn't make you right.

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Let's say you're right, and you're not ment to spam chat to find a group.

Where does that leave you when it comes to meeting new people and making new friends in game? If you're not going to group with anyone not already in your clique, you're never going to get to meet anyone new. That would mean no new people for your guild, because you'd never get the chance to get to know people. No new people for your friends list. As people drop out of the game, you'd gradually have a smaller and smaller pool of players you'd be playing with.

What you're advocating would create a very insular version of the game, where no one bothers to talk to anyone outside of their own little bubble. Is that what you'd want the game to look like? Because it would be the logical outcome of a stance like yours.

[Elkfingers]

Fixed that for you.

The only thing Blizzard explained is that they're attempting to preserve a very specific experience which is heavily predicated on nostalgia. Spamming global channels for groups is a massively inefficient and ineffective way to find a group. The only reason we did it back in vanilla is because there literally weren't better tools. And so Blizzard attempts to recreate that. NOT because it's good game design. But because it's recreating the idiocy of vanilla.

The problem with this is that Blizzard has already deviated from the idiocy of Vanilla game design in several other areas. So to claim that restricting other advances or tools "because vanilla" isn't a valid argument. It's hypocritical. It's inconsistent. It's not a valid argument.

It's not 'because vanilla' though. You're missing the point spectacularly. I, and others in this thread have explained why this obsession with efficiency inevitably leads to the death of communication, and community.

The reason that LFG tools are more efficient is because they either cut out player interaction entirely, or at least reduce the amount of interaction needed significantly such that the process is more efficient.

Dungeon Finder is incredibly efficient. All you have to do is press one button, and a group is formed automatically. The reason why it is so efficient is specifically because it requires no player interaction whatsoever.

Forming a group with no tools is a process exclusively made up of multiple, distinct, player to player interactions. The only way to make that process more efficient is to remove some or all of those interactions.

The inefficiency of the process is what drives interaction. The two things are intrinsically linked, and an emphasis on one necessarily de-emphasises the other.

The reality is that players will always choose the path of least resistance. Having to actually talk to people is wildly inefficient, and as such if people are going to interact it is absolutely necessary to ensure that it's the only option available to them. That's not bad game design at all if the stated aim is for people to interact. If the goal was efficiency, you would have a point - it isn't, so you don't.

[Kithelle]

I perfectly understand the situation. And I presented you a solution.

Besides, classic is not a game for alts. If you want to progress your main, you are not going to have time for an alt.

Look, it is over. Retail crybabies have lost. You will not ruin our experience. Go back to BfA if you want QoL.

Stop harassing our experience. We want true vanilla experience and not something that it will kinda look like it.

What you don't seem to realize is a lot of people didn't want a vanilla experience, but they just wanted live without the features they disliked. They just said they wanted vanilla.

[Elkfingers]

Let's say you're right, and you're not ment to spam chat to find a group.

Where does that leave you when it comes to meeting new people and making new friends in game? If you're not going to group with anyone not already in your clique, you're never going to get to meet anyone new. That would mean no new people for your guild, because you'd never get the chance to get to know people. No new people for your friends list. As people drop out of the game, you'd gradually have a smaller and smaller pool of players you'd be playing with.

What you're advocating would create a very insular version of the game, where no one bothers to talk to anyone outside of their own little bubble. Is that what you'd want the game to look like? Because it would be the logical outcome of a stance like yours.

So if I'm understanding what you're saying here, your argument is essentially 'if you already have friends, you can never make new friends'. I'm not sure I even need to add anything here tbh. That's ridiculous.

[Wingspan]

im talking about the original release back in 2005. It had a massive positive effect on me.

So you think forcing others to do what YOU think is best is a “massive positive effect”.

Wow.

[Elkfingers]

So you think forcing others to do what YOU think is best is a “massive positive effect”.

Wow.

If someone doesn't want matchmaking features because it tangibly reduces the quality of their experience, but you decide to advocate for them because you think it would enhance your experience, I don't see how that's any different.

Just saying my dude, your argument is real dishonest. By all means, make a case for what you want, but don't try to create some sort of imaginary moral high ground for yourself. You're basically defining freedom as 'the freedom to not agree with me but still ultimately do what I want anyway'.

[Wingspan]

You’re not meant to group up with random players to do dungeons

Outside of family or real life friends, EVERYONE is a random player until you do something with them... like maybe, a dungeon (as an example).

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If someone doesn't want matchmaking features because it tangibly reduces the quality of their experience, but you decide to advocate for them because you think it would enhance your experience, I don't see how that's any different.

Just saying my dude, your argument is real dishonest. By all means, make a case for what you want, but don't try to create some sort of imaginary moral high ground for yourself. You're basically defining freedom as 'the freedom to not agree with me but still ultimately do what I want anyway'.

Options baby... I want everyone to have options. Use it if you want... don't use it if you don't want.

This extends to anything in the game. Do dungeons and raids if you want to... don't do them if you don't want to. Quest or PvP if you want, don't quest or PvP if you don't want.

Your decisions on ALL of those things (Quests, Dungeons, Raids, PvP) have an impact (directly or indirectly) on everyone... this is no different.


Try again.

[Elkfingers]

Options baby... I want everyone to have options. Use it if you want... don't use it if you don't want.

This extends to anything in the game. Do dungeons and raids if you want to... don't do them if you don't want to. Quest or PvP if you want, don't quest or PvP if you don't want.

Your decisions on ALL of those things (Quests, Dungeons, Raids, PvP) have an impact (directly or indirectly) on everyone... this is no different.


Try again.

Again, the framing is woefully dishonest. Does anybody in retail actually form groups via chat? Of course they don't. That's because the path of least resistance (see above where I've described this in a fair bit of detail) is to use the tools provided because they are more efficient.

Because the use of those tools is the norm, the number of players who would otherwise be forming groups using the chat channels is drastically reduced. This in turn reduces the viability of the chat function for forming a group as the pool of players to draw from is too small.

You can not frame this as allowing for choice when what you want would in fact make one choice significantly less viable.

The problem here is that opening up a significantly more efficient path necessarily closes off the other, inefficient one. It is a false choice. It's exactly the same type of false choice that exists with talent selection - you have the option to choose bad talents if you want, but the reality is that nobody is actually going to do that.

The only way your argument works is if there is parity when it comes to the viability of the options you're presenting. There isn't, so your argument crashes and burns. Horribly.

The only choice here is efficiency, or interaction. You can't have both.

Honestly I would just stop here because there's no way that you're going to bamboozle me with what is essentially really terrible libertarian-style reasoning in which you present choice absent context. Context exists, however, and it's what makes this type of argument 100% bullshit.

P.S. What if I want the option to play a game without matchmaking features? If you're all about options, I fail to see how that's a choice you wouldn't respect. There is, after all, always the option to not play that particular game. It strikes me that you're all about options up until the point where you're actually not.

[Maquegyver]

Looking for Group (not the automated dungeon finder or LFR for those who are WoW illiterate) is pretty much exactly the same as the LFG channel. You list your group, what you need, what dungeon you are doing, and it has your name and the names of applicants. It simply consolidates a shitty chat channel and allows searching as well as eliminating the need to spam post for an hour. You still see a name and can check guild and make all the toxic decisions you want. You can still note certain requirements. You can still post from anywhere. You can still whisper pre-party and post party. It literally just gets rid of a dumb chat channel and improves upon it in literally every way.

There is zero negative in my mind outside of #nochanges... Dungeon Finder and LFR, however, should not ever be in Classic.

[SirCowdog]

It's not 'because vanilla' though. You're missing the point spectacularly. I, and others in this thread have explained why this obsession with efficiency inevitably leads to the death of communication, and community.

It's not an "obsession with efficiency". It's a desire to not use stone age tools when we know better.

You also used a slippery slope argument that every other purist attempts to use: That ANY change inevitably leads to the utter and complete destruction of fun. Stop. No. Wrong.

A simple premade group UI like we use for M+ in Retail is not going to break the game. All it does is take the broken glass out of the path when you're crawling around trying to find a group. It doesn't magically make people lazy. It doesn't add instant teleports. It doesn't form the group for you. It doesn't stop you from communicating. ALL of that is a bullshit narrative to hate on something you don't personally like. It's absolute NOT founded in reality.

The reason that LFG tools are more efficient is because they either cut out player interaction entirely, or at least reduce the amount of interaction needed significantly such that the process is more efficient.

Dungeon Finder is incredibly efficient. All you have to do is press one button, and a group is formed automatically. The reason why it is so efficient is specifically because it requires no player interaction whatsoever.

Full stop. You're making the same mistake as every other hater by not actually reading the thread. This isn't a suggestion to add automatic matchmaking or instant teleports to dungeons. My point of view is to just add the premade group finder, NOT the matchmaking or any other automated function.

For the back row: I absolutely agree that automatic matchmaking has no place in vanilla. I think it DOES have a better use in modern wow, but that's a different discussion entirely.

[Wingspan]

If someone doesn't want matchmaking features because it tangibly reduces the quality of their experience, but you decide to advocate for them because you think it would enhance your experience, I don't see how that's any different.

Just saying my dude, your argument is real dishonest. By all means, make a case for what you want, but don't try to create some sort of imaginary moral high ground for yourself. You're basically defining freedom as 'the freedom to not agree with me but still ultimately do what I want anyway'.

Options baby... I want everyone to have options. Use it if you want... don't use it if you don't want.

This extends to anything in the game. Do dungeons and raids if you want to... don't do them if you don't want to. Quest or PvP if you want, don't quest or PvP if you don't want.

Your decisions on ALL of those things (Quests, Dungeons, Raids, PvP) have an impact (directly or indirectly) on everyone... this is no different.


Try again.

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Again, the framing is woefully dishonest. Does anybody in retail actually form groups via chat? Of course they don't. That's because the path of least resistance (see above where I've described this in a fair bit of detail) is to use the tools provided because they are more efficient.

Then be inefficient. You have to put up or shut up. If you feel that is the way to do it, then do it that way. Just don't force others to do it that way.

Have you ever said anything to the effect of "If you want the good gear (the reward), then do the hard content"?

This is the same line of thinking: "If you want the social experience in dungeons (the reward), then do it the hard way by making groups the old fashioned way".

If you want it, do what is required.

Because the use of those tools is the norm, the number of players who would otherwise be forming groups using the chat channels is drastically reduced. This in turn reduces the viability of the chat function for forming a group as the pool of players to draw from is too small.

You can not frame this as allowing for choice when what you want would in fact make one choice significantly less viable.

Its only less viable if most people want it that way... and if that's the case then there isn't really much of a problem.

P.S. What if I want the option to play a game without matchmaking features? If you're all about options, I fail to see how that's a choice you wouldn't respect. There is, after all, always the option to not play that particular game. It strikes me that you're all about options up until the point where you're actually not.

So would you have any problems if they made Classic servers with and without LFG addon options? I would not. In the scope of they just did (bringing Classic to life) that would be an extremely trivial feat... and everyone could get what they want.

[Lambskin]

Dont tread on me bro i want to play how i want to play, fuck off with your addons

[Jtbrig7390]

Such social interaction standing in front of SFK typing...

Mage LFG SFK in general and say chat......

Totally wouldn't be better to just have a LFG window to post things in..........

[Elkfingers]

It's not an "obsession with efficiency". It's a desire to not use stone age tools when we know better.

You also used a slippery slope argument that every other purist attempts to use: That ANY change inevitably leads to the utter and complete destruction of fun. Stop. No. Wrong.

A simple premade group UI like we use for M+ in Retail is not going to break the game. All it does is take the broken glass out of the path when you're crawling around trying to find a group. It doesn't magically make people lazy. It doesn't add instant teleports. It doesn't form the group for you. It doesn't stop you from communicating. ALL of that is a bullshit narrative to hate on something you don't personally like. It's absolute NOT founded in reality.

Full stop. You're making the same mistake as every other hater by not actually reading the thread. This isn't a suggestion to add automatic matchmaking or instant teleports to dungeons. My point of view is to just add the premade group finder, NOT the matchmaking or any other automated function.

For the back row: I absolutely agree that automatic matchmaking has no place in vanilla. I think it DOES have a better use in modern wow, but that's a different discussion entirely.

Ok so everything here is wrong. First off, I resent the idea that I'm part of some 'purist camp'. I'll form my own ideas, thanks. Secondly, you either don't understand what a slippery slope is or have decided that I'm arguing something which I demonstrably am not.

Obviously I'm not saying that any attempt to add matchmaking features will *completely destroy* community. That would be a fucking stupid thing to say, and if I were the sort of person who was inclined towards making completely braindead arguments, would be a slippery slope. What I am in fact saying is that there is an inverse relationship between efficiency and interaction. If you're agreeing with the premise that a fully functioning automated matchmaking system would have a large impact on social interaction, then it follows that a matchmaking system with fewer features would nonetheless have a smaller impact. Not a slippery slope at all, and if I were you I wouldn't be so loose in employing fallacies which have very specific applications within the context of syllogistic logic. Misapplying fallacies works if the other person doesn't know how to apply them either, but as it happens I tend to make sure I avoid fallacious reasoning cos, yano, I might know what I'm talking about a little when it comes to this shit.

The point here is that if the goal is interaction, and moreover a reduction in the transactional nature of forming groups, then anything which either reduces interaction, or makes those interactions more transactional (read: easier) goes against that aim. By your own admission, a premade group UI would make things easier. I've already laid out why making things easier reduces the importance of positive interactions in that losing a group member becomes less impactful, so within the framing that we've clearly both agreed on, that is a bad thing.

It's not that I think that QOL features will completely ruin the experience, but they will have an impact. I don't want my experience to be impacted. You do, hence the disagreement. The problem, obviously, is that your aim is to argue that stuff should be added because you don't think it's going to have an impact. If I can show that it in fact does have an impact (even a very small one), which I definitely have done, that means you lose by default.

Then be inefficient. You have to put up or shut up. If you feel that is the way to do it, then do it that way. Just don't force others to do it that way.

Have you ever said anything to the effect of "If you want the good gear (the reward), then do the hard content"?

This is the same line of thinking: "If you want the social experience in dungeons (the reward), then do it the hard way by making groups the old fashioned way".

If you want it, do what is required.

Its only less viable if most people want it that way... and if that's the case then there isn't really much of a problem.

So would you have any problems if they made Classic servers with and without LFG addon options? I would not. In the scope of they just did (bringing Classic to life) that would be an extremely trivial feat... and everyone could get what they want.

Ok, so again a lot wrong here. The reason why you have to do hard content to get the best gear is because that is the only option. What you've done straight away is fuck your entire point, because we both know that if that gear was available via raid finder, it would be vastly more difficult to form a Mythic raid team. I'm saying this as a former officer in a Cutting Edge guild. I'm motivated by progress, and yet if I could get my Mythic transmog by just running LFR, I'd 100% be tempted to slack off for a tier and not bother with progression. Let's not pretend that if there was the 'option' to do easier content that it would not be significantly harder to recruit for Mythic due to drastically reduced participation.

What you've done here is tried to make a comparison incorrectly. When we apply that comparison correctly, it ends up supporting what I've already been saying. It does not matter if people want something to be a certain way if there is another option with significantly less resistance which in a very real sense makes it incredibly unattractive for them to play the game in the way they want.

Whether people want something to be a certain way or not, they'll still on the whole end up choosing the more viable of two options irrespective of preference. The fact that I go to work is not an indication that I want to go to work. It is simply more viable than trying to feed, clothe and house myself without having an income.

That said, sure. I would have no problem whatsoever with having Classic servers where QOL features were added. That's a real choice - not one that I would make, but also not one that I'd have a problem with others making.

[Wingspan]

Reality is someone needs to make an addon that can automatically parse the group and posts an encrypted string. You copy that string to a website, like wowClassicLFG.com, and post it there. Everyone uses wowclassiclfg.com to find groups. Problem solved and unstoppable.

I do think that at some point, someone is probably going to create a workaround that can’t be disabled. This will kind of depend on the long-term success of Classic though.

If Classic stays pretty popular, then it will definitely happen.

If Classic slumps hard and fast (which is fairly likely), then guilds will be begging people to do things with them, so it might not be worth creating.

[Gref]

Keep your LFG addon away from the game.
I use general chat, if not use /who and whisper people directly, if they are unwilling, I offer money, hiring them. When you form a group in vanilla you know it is going to be a group of committed people.

That being said, I saw 2 people in wailing caverns leaving it early saying, did not realize it was going to take this long.

Retail ----> this way. Please leave as soon as possible so that I am left with like minded committed people.

[Wingspan]

Ok, so again a lot wrong here. The reason why you have to do hard content to get the best gear is because that is the only option. What you've done straight away is fuck your entire point, because we both know that if that gear was available via raid finder, it would be vastly more difficult to form a Mythic raid team. I'm saying this as a former officer in a Cutting Edge guild. I'm motivated by progress, and yet if I could get my Mythic transmog by just running LFR, I'd 100% be tempted to slack off for a tier and not bother with progression. Let's not pretend that if there was the 'option' to do easier content that it would not be significantly harder to recruit for Mythic due to drastically reduced participation.

What you've done here is tried to make a comparison incorrectly. When we apply that comparison correctly, it ends up supporting what I've already been saying. It does not matter if people want something to be a certain way if there is another option with significantly less resistance which in a very real sense makes it incredibly unattractive for them to play the game in the way they want.

What I have done here is show that you are not willing to practice what you (likely) preach. And if this is not the case, I commend you, but plenty of others do.

I don’t even really agree with the “only do the hard content for the best gear” statement. But I enjoy tossing the same sentiment back when it fits an example (and it fits beautifully here).

Anyone who believes others should need to meet an unwanted prerec for a reward should also accept some unwanted prerecs for their own rewards. If it is to have meaning then it has to work both ways.

Semi off topic example: The unbelievable river of tears caused by the “required for raiding” daily quests at the beginning of MoP.

Whether people want something to be a certain way or not, they'll still on the whole end up choosing the more viable of two options irrespective of preference. The fact that I go to work is not an indication that I want to go to work. It is simply more viable than trying to feed, clothe and house myself without having an income.

Real life (particularly work) examples rarely translate well to gaming arguments. One is based on survival and the other as optional recreation. This example is not particularly ideal.

That said, sure. I would have no problem whatsoever with having Classic servers where QOL features were added. That's a real choice - not one that I would make, but also not one that I'd have a problem with others making.

I’m glad to hear that. And I think it would be great for the game.

[Elkfingers]

I’m glad to hear that. And I think it would be great for the game.

I mean I can't do any more walls of text cos sleep is important too. I'm not conceding the point here because I think this is the important bit - our opinions aren't compatible. There is just no way to have QOL features on a server with people who don't want them because it's shit for everyone involved (admittedly, significantly less so for the people who want QOL features and have as a result got what they wanted with absolutely no downsides).

Regardless, presenting it as a dichotomy is very MMOC. Just having separate servers completely removes the need to even have this argument, and that's probably a great solution.