Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Tiwack]

I compare it to diablo 3 because of the ease to gear. The different levels of gear. The diablo 3 inspired talent trees. The solo play style. The ability to easily queue for anything without moving. Warforged and tf feel ripped outta diablo 3. M+ is just wow version of diablo 3 rifts, and most damning of all to me is the seasonal aspect.

It’s no longer play the expansion it’s play the patch. As soon as the new raid comes out, the old is worthless. That bothers me more than any lfr

All of these things were true before diablo3 came around. How do you know they weren't copied the other way around? Things has always been getting tweaks in wow, same as diablo, they're games of options solo and multiplayer and not excluding one or the other.
Some consider these selling points, you don't want a game with solo-play, continual updates or QoL options that's fine, games like that exist too.

[justandulas]

All of these things were true before diablo3 came around. How do you know they weren't copied the other way around? Things has always been getting tweaks in wow, same as diablo, they're games of options solo and multiplayer and not excluding one or the other.
Some consider these selling points, you don't want a game with solo-play, continual updates or QoL options that's fine, games like that exist too.

Which is why I gladly play classic and won’t touch retail without a foundational change.

That’s fine tho, there’s plenty of wow for us all

I wasn’t trying to campaign against lfr here; just giving my 2 cents as to why people feel a certain way towards it.

The cats out of the bag tho

To me, more than lfr, the seasonal play the patch feeling grinds my gears more.

The d3 heavy design started towards the end of wod when jay wilson and his diablo 3 team were moved to wow team. Ever since then the game has moved into a diablo 3 version of wow. The talent trees, m+, and multiple different difficulties of every piece of gear including wf/tf, and how heavily seasonal it is with play the patch only.

To each their own tho. Have a good day!

[Xalvia]

It's an unnecessary difficulty mode with a reward structure that doesn't encourage players to improve themselves or actually learn how to play as a team. It's detrimental to the game.

My $0.02.

this. 100%

but yea, blizzard knows better

[Varitok]

this. 100%

but yea, blizzard knows better

Wanna tell me how it's detrimental to the game? How do LFR people effect your tryhard mythic runs? If they are supposedly so terrible at the game and only do LFR, how does it effect you?

Blizzard does know better in this case, because LFR is the only reason raiding exists in the capacity it does today. This is just a case of being impotently mad at other people having fun the way they want, tryhards cannot stand people getting some gear or having fun if it wasn't through a frustrating 200 wipe run.

[Arakakao]

I think most people would have preferred that entitled carebears cancel their subscriptions instead of ruining the game.

Yeah, because having an OPTIONAL raid difficult that serious raiders ignore actually reduces your enjoyment of the game, right?

[tankbug]

That is not at all the reason.

I'm against LFR because it trivializes difficult content, rewards players for doing almost nothing, and makes guilds and group content irrelevant. Recruiting was much easier before LFR became a thing, partially because many people raid out of a desire to witness the content and the raid.

I hope you do respect that there are a lot of casual, but loyal, players out there that are interested in the story and the content, but just don't have the possibility show up at set raid schedules and do a lot of preparations, optimizing etc. There are a lot of us who can't prioritize the game in our daily life, and it has to be one of those "ah, seems like I have a couple hours alone now" type sessions.

[Roadblock]

If you have to ask.. it can't be explained to you.

[justandulas]

Yeah, because having an OPTIONAL raid difficult that serious raiders ignore actually reduces your enjoyment of the game, right?

It undercuts the value of the raid to have multiple difficulties of it. One size fits all version of the raid, by itself, is devaluing it vs a static one difficulty raid that you either beat, or not.

[shaunika123]

it took 150 for people who didnt know wtf they where doing. Classic raiding was never hard, people just didnt have the tools they have today to get into the raid / react quick enough or whatever. LFR is on the same level, bosses have 1-2 abilities, they can still kill you but nothing really challenging as clearly seen over the last week on classic.

thanks you for agreeing with me....


that was literally what I said.

it was hard, because we sucked and we had no tools.

it isnt now, it WAS

"hard" is relative

[Raelbo]

And yes multiple tiers of the raids do devalue the higher end.

Explain. Lot's of people will say this, as if repetition somehow makes it true. It doesn't.

That said, I’m one of the type to always help and pull people up rather than put down. I want everyone to do the hard content too

Maybe that's your problem. How about stop being so condescending and allow other people decide for themselves what they want to do?

Chasing the same pieces with + numbers on them is too diablo 3 for me. Maybe if the 4 difficulties all had different gear with unique armor and weapons for the hardest modes I’d find it fulfilling

The gear is different. I mean, sure, it's thematically similar and in that sense not completely unique, but each difficulty is sufficiently distinct that it's hardly difficult to tell them apart.

but I don’t consider different difficulties as different content. Just different difficulties.

They're not meant to be different content. What they are meant to be is a mechanism for providing that content to different players. Which is a good thing.

They’d be better offering multiple different raids of varying difficulties and let the chips fall where they may

No. No one would be better off. There would be significantly less content available to everyone because each piece of content would be useable only be a small portion of the playerbase. I don't get how someone could fail to understand this....

It’s no longer play the expansion it’s play the patch. As soon as the new raid comes out, the old is worthless. That bothers me more than any lfr

Old content becomes worthless regardless once people have finished with it. We've kinda been spoiled in the last few years because we haven't been stuck for 10-15 months on the same tier, so I get why it might seem to someone that it's the new content that is responsible for this phenomenon. But it's really not.

[Xalvia]

Wanna tell me how it's detrimental to the game? How do LFR people effect your tryhard mythic runs? If they are supposedly so terrible at the game and only do LFR, how does it effect you?

Blizzard does know better in this case, because LFR is the only reason raiding exists in the capacity it does today. This is just a case of being impotently mad at other people having fun the way they want, tryhards cannot stand people getting some gear or having fun if it wasn't through a frustrating 200 wipe run.

of course it affects my "tryhard" mythic runs

new players hit max level and want to check out the endgame and story, its still a mystery - maybe its their first mmo and they want to experience what it means to down stuff in a larger group

what they get is a quick run, 0 communication, no skill involved whatsoever, no goodbyes - nothing. how is this appealing to anyone? i have met multiple friends / people i talked to who quit the game at max level after a week because it was boring.

so yea, it affects me, because the shitty lfr deters people from checking out what a real raid is all about - not the difficulty, normal is perfectly fine for people who don't have time for multiple wipes or don't have the time in general - at least they have to communicate on a base level und can't afk. It gives people the wrong first impression my dude.

but yea, we are talking about deleting lfr and just having normal as entry level raid, but of course people like you always bring the same bs arguments of "oh yea they dont want 200 wipes " "you just want to feel entitled"

its like reasoning with a small child

and no, im not mad at people for wanting fun im mad at blizzard for making the entry level stuff so easy that many people quit before checking out the stuff that involves actual mmorpg aspects

[Feral Druid ist Op]

What about the people with full time jobs? People with kids? People on servers with no raid presence? Are they supposed to be told to get fucked and never get to experience the content? Stop gatekeeping. It's not terrible game design. You're just an elitist.

I dont know about you but last time i was in hc (3 weeks ago with a fkng pug) i could clear it within 90 min. and if you cant afford 90 min for a mmo you honestly dont deserv to be rewarded.

[Raelbo]

new players hit max level and want to check out the endgame and story, its still a mystery - maybe its their first mmo and they want to experience what it means to down stuff in a larger group

You do realise that "new" players are few and far between at the stage in the lifecycle of the game?

it affects me, because the shitty lfr deters people from checking out what a real raid is all about - not the difficulty, normal is perfectly fine for people who don't have time for multiple wipes or don't have the time in general - at least they have to communicate on a base level und can't afk. It gives people the wrong first impression my dude.

I think you're simply projecting here and trying to place the blame on LFR for stuff it isn't even remotely responsible for. The simple fact is this: WoW is a difficult game to get into for a new player because they don't have the benefit of 15 years' experience of how the game works. I would argue that unless a new player has some kind of mentor to guide them, they're probably screwed anyway. If you join the game and have such a mentor, then it's up that person to guide you through the content, invite you to a guild, introduce you raiding. So your point is kinda moot.

Also, I really struggle to imagine the kind person who would know enough about the game to find their way into real raiding if LFR didn't exist, but is so utterly naive, ignorant and simple that they would conclude that a shitty LFR run was somehow indicative of the experience of joining a guild and getting into real raiding.

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I dont know about you but last time i was in hc (3 weeks ago with a fkng pug) i could clear it within 90 min. and if you cant afford 90 min for a mmo you honestly dont deserv to be rewarded.

Don't be disingenuous. There is a lot more to clearing a heroic raid with a pug in 90 minutes and you know it. The people for whom LFR is designed wouldn't get into said pugs without committed considerable time and effort to the game over a period of many months, possibly years. The only pugs they're getting into are the ones where the group spends 90 minutes wiping on the first boss....

[barrsftw]

I am still waiting for some type of data that shows a statistically significant decline in participation on normal and heroic raiding after LFR was released.

On Catch-up mechanics.

Dire Maul, ZG and AQ20 as well as the Dungeon Set 0.5 all were catch up.
In TBC the additional valor gear released with ZA was catch up (and of course after that came IoQ)

ZG and AQ20 were catch-up raids. I don't think anyone would have an issue if instead of LFR they added a new "introductory" raid.

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And yes multiple tiers of the raids do devalue the higher end.

Explain. Lot's of people will say this, as if repetition somehow makes it true. It doesn't.

Because a lot of people don't want to do the same thing over again with increased numbers. Just like storymode in any other game. Once I beat the game on Normal or Hard, I don't really want to do it again on Extreme or Insane. Sure it'll be challenging.. but I kinda already did that.

I think it's easier to understand if we exaggerate it. Lets say instead of LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic there were 10 difficulties -- LFR being the easiest. After you do LFR, do you really wanna do LFR +1, LFR +2, LFR +3 all the way up to Heroic? Of course not.

[rhorle]

I devalues the highest end content if it’s the same fights as the lowest end content. Multiple difficulties is not new content. If I turn on madden, playing it on all madden vs all rookie doesn’t make it a different game despite the different experiences.

You just defeated your own argument. It is a different experience. LFR vs Mythic is a different experience. WoW hasn't had varying difficulty raids to climb since TBC. You are years way to late on that aspect. LFR doesn't really change "the climb" either because it is removed from normal progression. You can even out gear it now with out even running it which is the case with my main. I don't do normal raiding because of time commitments even though I have a lot of free time to play. It just isn't all the time since I watch a toddler and have other family obligations.

One size fits all started way before the Dragon Soul raid.

[Raelbo]

Because a lot of people don't want to do the same thing over again with increased numbers. Just like storymode in any other game. Once I beat the game on Normal or Hard, I don't really want to do it again on Extreme or Insane. Sure it'll be challenging.. but I kinda already did that.

I think it's easier to understand if we exaggerate it. Lets say instead of LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic there were 10 difficulties -- LFR being the easiest. After you do LFR, do you really wanna do LFR +1, LFR +2, LFR +3 all the way up to Heroic? Of course not.

You do realise that's it's not mandatory to play every difficulty right? You get to choose which you participate in. Just because there is nothing stopping you from all four modes doesn't mean you're now forced to do them all. Figure out which difficulty mode(s) you want to participate in and stick to that.

You're not describing a game problem. You're describing a player problem.

[rhorle]

Hell, they don’t even give mythic only weapons and armors as incentive. It’s literally the same as any lfr but with a few extra stats. At least legion had mythic tier sets

There are mythic only transmogs.

[bloodykiller86]

with the new LFG tool, LFR and LFD need to go. Timewalking can stay and thats it

[barrsftw]

You do realise that's it's not mandatory to play every difficulty right? You get to choose which you participate in. Just because there is nothing stopping you from all four modes doesn't mean you're now forced to do them all. Figure out which difficulty mode(s) you want to participate in and stick to that.

You're not describing a game problem. You're describing a player problem.

I was explaining why LFR devalues higher raids. You said it didn't.

Also, this is a player problem, but then you defend people who don't have time to raid? How is that not also a player problem? It sounds like if it's against your point of view it's a player problem, and if it supports your opinion it's a game problem. Either way it's irrelevant whether it's a game problem or player problem. A problem is a problem. Personally, I don't think LFR is that big of a deal, although I would prefer it gone. But I'm not ignorant to why people think it's bad for the game.

Like the previous poster mentioned, and thousands of others: It devalues higher raid content, and disincentivizes people from doing Normal/Heroic.

[Heffladin]

I do play my games on the hardest difficulty. I went 16-0 in my all madden season. I beat god of war on GoW mode my first play through (a huge step down in difficulty from GoW 3 Titan mode)

And yes multiple tiers of the raids do devalue the higher end. It’s why mythic raiding is at an all time low this expansion. Even legion had mythic tier sets but now they are gone for generic armor sets.

That said, I’m one of the type to always help and pull people up rather than put down. I want everyone to do the hard content too, but I don’t find retail wows gear structure rewarding. Chasing the same pieces with + numbers on them is too diablo 3 for me. Maybe if the 4 difficulties all had different gear with unique armor and weapons for the hardest modes I’d find it fulfilling but I don’t consider different difficulties as different content. Just different difficulties. They’d be better offering multiple different raids of varying difficulties and let the chips fall where they may

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I compare it to diablo 3 because of the ease to gear. The different levels of gear. The diablo 3 inspired talent trees. The solo play style. The ability to easily queue for anything without moving. Warforged and tf feel ripped outta diablo 3. M+ is just wow version of diablo 3 rifts, and most damning of all to me is the seasonal aspect.

It’s no longer play the expansion it’s play the patch. As soon as the new raid comes out, the old is worthless. That bothers me more than any lfr

Right on the money.. it really hit it's peak when the diablo devs were shifted to working on the legion expansion. It's rather strange to me this push by blizzard for new players to experience the latest content when they aren't even done with any of the other parts.

I get that catch up is needed but I feel we could be in such a better place if it was a bit more measured.