Can we all now agree that Vanilla wasn't harder?

[Loeko]

Well, continue to persist in believing that people say that raids are harder on Classic and maybe you'll have a point with this video the day someone will actually say that. Meanwhile, people keep saying the same thing "Retail's raids are harder but the rest is easier" and there's no one here that has been able to refute that. The only thing that most of the players here want is simply for retail to offer more challenging content outside of instances, to at least have opportunities to play our classes to the fullest in order to survive and not have to wait to be in a mythic raid to do so.

[risks]

Classic appeals strongly to players who equate difficulty with time requirements. Difficulty is about skill floors and ceilings, and about the relevancy of gameplay execution and planning. Everything taking longer to accomplish is not skill. Classic punishing players for completely ignoring execution is not difficulty.

BfA has absolutely no difficulty outside high-end raiding.
Classic has absolutely no difficulty anywhere, but the endgame is incredibly easy.

BfA allows you to faceroll non high-end content in short order.
Classic has a lenient skill floor and time requirements for a lot of content are harsher.

Neither game is hard or skill-based for the majority of people. Terrible players will find classic harder than BfA. Skilled players will find some challenge in BfA endgame, but no challenge in Classic.

It's perfectly fine to be entertained by either game, and there are many good reasons to enjoy both. There are reasons of aesthetics, nostalgia and world design that
are reasonable explanation for having fun with one or both. Difficulty is not one of them. For either game. If you are not a high-end raider in BfA, you'll not be challenged unless you're mentally or physically handicapped. Same goes for basically every single part of classic. There are some challenges relating to organization and running a social structure to support end-game raiding. For those who enjoy that, that's also a fair reason to stick around. You can also find a challenge in minimizing time needed to level and do content in classic. But that's no different than speed-running any easy game.

This very much - classic with lower ceiling and higher floor. Catering to smaller audience but at least not splitting community that much.

[Akka]

Ill get back to you when naxx gets stomped ok? so we can both laugh.

So it was indeed a simulated difficulty cause people were actually retarded back then, thank you.

That's, yet again, an absurd (if not downright stupid) argument.
Raids that were already cleared plus people having experience and time to prepare, meaning that said raids will be cleared fast by top guilds ? Who is supposed to be surprised by that ?
Do you also expect guilds who cleared EP one month ago to suddenly start to wiping on it by now ? Should we laugh "damn, BfA so easy, look this week Method went in and facerolled EP Mythic" ?

That's irrelevant. How fast top-guild clear content is simply meaningless for the overwhelming majority of the population, and the fact people focus so much on it is ridiculous. What matters is how the content will go for the regular raiding guy (which is a pretty large bracket, but let's say the people who aren't in the top 10 %). These people will probably laugh throughout MC, but don't expect them to faceroll Naxx.

[ReVnX]

Try leveling a warrior

[thilicen]

Meh I've been saying this since classic was announced. Less class complexity, less raid complexity, everyone know the tactics, everyone is used to raids. How people still thought classic raids would last longer than a day is beyond me. I'd be surprised to see even resistance fights like huhuran and sapphiron have the same curve as they did back then.

[Akka]

The actual mob kills etc - I can kill +4 lvl mobs in classic without an issue.

Several +4 lvl mob at the same time ? That requires a lot of prerequisite (full health/mana, having the initiative, no surprise add and playing an "easy to level class"), which already lessen the impact of the claim, and also even in this case I don't believe the "without an issue".

Technically yes, but what you're, voluntarily I imagine, forgetting to say is that the same tiger will leave you at 20% hp on Classic and 99% on retail. If another tiger joins the fight (which might be the player's fault in this case but is most of the time normal because of packs), you literally have to use your whole toolkit on some classes on Classic where you simply press a key and end at 98% on retail. Try taking 10-15 ennemies at once on Classic. If you're not a mage, good luck surviving. Retail? You'd have to have some really serious brain issues to manage to die.

You can try to phrase it however you want, the fact is still here. Ennemies are tougher and that makes fights harder. Players can try to reduce that by doing like you, focusing on remote 1v1 fights but the fact is, you won't be able to do that for the biggest part of the leveling. Eventually, you have to engage more than one mob and here's where the difference comes in. Have you ever died on retail from anything else than a fall or a PvP gank? Personally, I haven't. In years. If you at least play Classic now, can you honestly tell me that you didn't have to pull out fingers out of your ass a lot more?

Had to +1 this post.
The amount of twisting made by anti-Classic guys to pretend that nothing in Classic is harder is just like trying to cheat in a bad pissing contest.

[InTheEnd]

I can't understand why so many people get offended when some people say Vanilla was harder. It is a truth for them in the experience of their reality. People will have opposing views, choose not to get offended by those views because they differ from your own.

[NihilSustinet]

Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.

i hate to beat this dead horse, but 1.12 is a completely different game than 1.1. if you tried to do dungeons the way people are doing them in classic, you would get destroyed. launching on 1.12 completely trivializes everything up to aq 40 and naxx.

[Frozenbro]

That's irrelevant. How fast top-guild clear content is simply meaningless for the overwhelming majority of the population, and the fact people focus so much on it is ridiculous. What matters is how the content will go for the regular raiding guy (which is a pretty large bracket, but let's say the people who aren't in the top 10 %). These people will probably laugh throughout MC, but don't expect them to faceroll Naxx.

That was a quote to a guy claiming that naxx was gonna be more of a challenge than current retail "The later raids definitely give retail a run for its money (naxx)" so if you just quote me like that is out of context, you and i know naxx is gonna be steamrolled by top guilds, the guy i quoted doesnt.

[Tekkommo]

Well levelling is harder in vanilla (just saying it's harder than retail, not that it's actually hard).

I didn't see anyone seriously claim that dungeons and raids were harder than heroic/mythic.

[Matija]

I can't understand why so many people get offended when some people say Vanilla was harder. It is a truth for them in the experience of their reality. People will have opposing views, choose not to get offended by those views because they differ from your own.

Unless you've done end game content in both vanilla and retail, I have doubts believing your words. ("you" said in general, not you specifically)

A lot of people who say that vanilla was harder never did vanilla end game raiding and terrible grind that was required for it. And also, people seem to forget, not only players were new to any kind of MMO back in 2005. (for majority WOW was first MMO), but computers were worse, internet speed was shit.

I bet a lot of people here remember 'oh gawd, team <insert country here> down' in the middle of the boss fight - and 5+ players disconnect.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not? let's assume theres this quest where you need 10 fangs from tigers, in retail you need to kill 15 tigers and you are done roughly, in classic you kill 30 tigers and you are at 5 out of 10 fangs, does this make classic time consuming? yes, its an investment, but you are killing the same retarded tigers that needs 0 braincells at all to kill, which leads to classic not being hard but time consuming, unless you are going to tell me the tiger needs some big brain plays to get killed.

I vividly remember vanilla quest in STV (if anyone can find it, I'd appreciate it) where you had to collect body parts from animals (I think it was a tiger, a gorilla and something else) with abysmal drop chance. Buddy and me spent 3 hours doing that, hoping for drops.

[Loveliest]

This "hard" thing is such a complex subject to discuss.
I mean... hard relative to what?
If we had both versions 15 years ago?
If we had both versions now? (which we do)
Vanilla 15 years ago versus Retail now?
Highest end difficulty for retail or any difficulty?
With good players or clueless players?
Are we looking at world firsts only for raids or looking at an average from the raiding pop?

This is why I don't think people will agree. There will always be some setup in which Classic is harder than retail.

[potis]

I can't understand why so many people get offended when some people say Vanilla was harder. It is a truth for them in the experience of their reality. People will have opposing views, choose not to get offended by those views because they differ from your own.

There is being offended, and there is being downright retarded.

Claiming Classic has any sort of difficulty other than time requirements, for a 2019 game and other than the player being terrible at games is like claiming vaccines cause autism and the earth is flat.

Is it the reality for some people? Yes it is, and what do we do to the flat earthers? We point and mock cause they are downright retarded.

Some other dude already said it a few days back in another post, and someone said it decently a few pages back.

Classic makes bad players feel good, BFA makes bad players understand their how bad they are and they dont like that, but they decide to ignore all the harder content in favor for their pride as a human being.

[Loeko]

There is being offended, and there is being downright retarded.

Claiming Classic has any sort of difficulty other than time requirements, for a 2019 game and other than the player being terrible at games is like claiming vaccines cause autism and the earth is flat.

Is it the reality for some people? Yes it is, and what do we do to the flat earthers? We point and mock cause they are downright retarded.

Some other dude already said it a few days back in another post, and someone said it decently a few pages back.

Classic makes bad players feel good, BFA makes bad players understand their how bad they are and they dont like that, but they decide to ignore all the harder content in favor for their pride as a human being.

For someone who mocks the flat eathers, you strangely sound like one of them with this post

[potis]

For someone who mocks the flat eathers, you strangely sound like one of them with this post

Did you seriously just try to defend flat earthers in an attempt to somehow mock me with something that doesnt even make sense?

I am sorry that you are offended that you are shit at games.

[Loeko]

Did you seriously just try to defend flat earthers in an attempt to somehow mock me with something that doesnt even make sense?

I am sorry that you are offended that you are shit at games.

Alright, after a zero argument post, we now get personal insults. Keep trying. You might manage to make other believe that the Earth is flat one of these days.

[potis]

Alright, after a zero argument post, we now get personal insults. Keep trying. You might manage to make other believe that the Earth is flat one of these days.

There is no argument to be had.

If you believe that Classic has any sort of difficulty other than time management in 2019, i simply feel sorry for you, and mostly for the people that will end up grouped with you honestly.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

Currently leveling a Holy Paladin in a group, my first five talent points thus far have given me 2 intellect or 20 mana.

Man I sure am glad we have these back. Can you imagine not being able to immerse yourself into this level of customization? Imagine if I had a choice of three new abilities by now, that'd just lead me to some cookie cutter bullshit.

Hahahahah the truth right here^

People that think the old talent system was better than the new talent system are extremely delusional.

[Loeko]

There is no argument to be had.

If you believe that Classic has any sort of difficulty other than time management in 2019, i simply feel sorry for you, and mostly for the people that will end up grouped with you honestly.

Feel sorry if you want, but stop using the technics of the flat earthers to prove your point. They ignore facts to impose their stupid ideas, so do you.

[Loveliest]

Difficult is defined by Oxford as follows:
"Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/difficult

Effort
OR
Skill

Something which requires significant amounts of effort, such as taking a lot of time and persistence, is difficult.

You guys are straight up changing the definitions of words in order to facilitate your weird obsession with intentionally misunderstanding Classic fans.

I thought about it as well and wanted to reply in the same lines of you. But then I thought about it more and it says "needing MUCH effort". Can you really truly say there is "much effort"? "Significant amount of effort"? Effort is not time - there is a different term for things that require a lot of time, "time-consuming".

Cause if you go the other way around, what is "effort"? Looking it up, you come up with several things, but it's usually along these lines:
"If you say that something is an effort, you mean that an unusual amount of physical or mental energy is needed to do it."
So... unusual amount of physical or mental energy. Nothing about time. So is it like that in Classic?