frost, warrior, holy priest and combat need to be nerfed

[gd8]

No, feral are actually good. Way ahead of ret and enh. Feral can easily reach top 5.

you avoid mentioning the fact that that relies on using a weapon with a certain spell effect that only has 3 charges and must be farmed in countless quantities

[aGit]

Paladin, Druid, and Shaman all have to pay the Hybrid Tax.

warrior doesn't?

[Jastall]

The good old days when hybrid classes did not perform better than pure classes

Hybrid classes were a meme the moment Warriors were allowed to be the only tanks as well as top tier DPS.

"Hybrid tax" in WoW always meant "if you can heal, we won't allow you to do anything else, bitch".

[BeepBoo]

People wanted classic, they're getting classic. And all the "balance" that comes with it.

You say this, but I signed the og petition and I also specifically stated I wanted balance changes if they were going to do it. So...

How about we finally drop the meme that "classic, warts and all, is what everyone wanted!"

- - - Updated - - -

"Hybrid tax" in WoW always meant "if you can heal, we won't allow you to do anything else, bitch".

The entire extent of my problems with vanilla. It's so sad and so much easier to fix than the myriad of crap wrong with retail.

[ztkraptor]

If you're going to obsess over logs,parses and DPS meters,I don't think Classic is the game for you.

Of course the tuning is worse than BfA,BfA has some of the best tuning WoW ever had,while classic wasn't even trying to be a 100% streamlined esport ready game,that's just not what the game was about

I disagree that anything in classic needs changed of course. and I agree with your first line.

I just want to point out that its not very hard to "balance tuning" when every fucking class is a clone of the other with renamed abilities. BFA is fuckin garbage.

[Gjin]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...1000#class=DPS

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...#class=Healers

These specs are ridiculously overtuned. Classes like hunter, paladin, druid and shaman have absolutely no chance at performing on a viable level. I understand people want no changes but if the tuning looks this bad (PS this tuning is worse than BFA) then I do not understand why the game is getting so much praise.

It's a shame when half of the classes in the game are not viable. I think of this as an absolute development failure.

Funny

[rohoz]

I disagree that anything in classic needs changed of course. and I agree with your first line.

I just want to point out that its not very hard to "balance tuning" when every fucking class is a clone of the other with renamed abilities. BFA is fuckin garbage.

taking bets on your last max leveled char.

Gonna say wotlk.

[Gratlim]

Yeah Ret and Enhancement are fantastic too! What a guy.

He is actually right about feral and your comment just show how little you know about classic DPS specs. You can go take a look at Wowhead rankings if you're in doubt. Feral is on par with hunters and above them and locks with gnome weapon usage.

Can't compare with Enh or Ret.

[kamuimac]

He is actually right about feral and your comment just show how little you know about classic DPS specs. You can go take a look at Wowhead rankings if you're in doubt. Feral is on par with hunters and above them and locks with gnome weapon usage.

Can't compare with Enh or Ret.

so its garbage compared to bis specs just like rest of specs you mentioned .

glad you prove the point of this thread

[Wildmoon]

Why are you guys insulting each other over game preferences? There finally are 2 versions of the game to enjoy and you still fight lol.

[Monster Hunter]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...1000#class=DPS

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...#class=Healers

These specs are ridiculously overtuned. Classes like hunter, paladin, druid and shaman have absolutely no chance at performing on a viable level. I understand people want no changes but if the tuning looks this bad (PS this tuning is worse than BFA) then I do not understand why the game is getting so much praise.

It's a shame when half of the classes in the game are not viable. I think of this as an absolute development failure.

Of course its worse tuning than bfa.... Like how did you expect it to be even comparable.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1000/

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/23#

[Dhrizzle]

Hybrid classes were a meme the moment Warriors were allowed to be the only tanks as well as top tier DPS.

"Hybrid tax" in WoW always meant "if you can heal, we won't allow you to do anything else, bitch".

In Vanilla warriors weren't classed as hybrids, they were the primary tank.

Also the "hybrid tax" didn't exist in Vanilla the way it did in later expansions, expected class roles were more diverse as "debuffer" and "hybrid/secondary healer" were in there. The community figured out it was easier to min-max and mostly concentrate on the tank/healer/damage-dealer trinity but it wasn't until TBC that specs were modified to mostly allow that, and the perfect solution for hybrid vs. pure dps classes was never really found (and may not exist.)

Also warriors were always a bit of a special case for balancing due to rage mechanics scaling, I'm not sure their high damage output in Vanilla was intentional.

In TBC the "hybrid tax" meant hybrid damage dealers could deal some pretty good damage pre-raid but scaled much worse than the pure damage dealers, as a result once you got passed the T4 raids they were often cut away unless the min-max formula said they would boost the raid more than taking an extra pure.

In WotLK they scaled better but were tuned to be a bit behind the pure classes. They also shared a pool of possible buffs/utility so raids were encouraged to take a mixture of the hybrid classes but weren't forced to take one particular spec for utility. They were also close enough that it wasn't game-breaking to take a few extra hybrid classes though you would still want mostly pure damage dealers.

Then at some point (I quit raiding after Wrath so I couldn't tell you when) Blizz decided to treat all damage dealing specs the same so their position on the meters was down to the vagaries of balancing and encounter design.

BTW, are you using the word "meme" instead of "joke" in your post?

[DenniZ]

What the hell are you on about?

In the All Stars Top 10 Healing there are Druids Shamans, Priests and Paladins. Looks pretty balanced to me.

On the other hand. Its Classic. Some classes wont do as well as others on specific fights. Some classes/specs bring utility or buffs. That may not be visible in your DPS charts but that does not mean the class/spec is useless. Classic is not just about the numbers. Therefor it is a must more enjoyable version of WoW.

[Gratlim]

so its garbage compared to bis specs just like rest of specs you mentioned .

glad you prove the point of this thread

Because a class is not S tier (that is only Mage atm and later on Warriors in AQ40/Naxx gear) doesn't make it garbage. Unless you follow to life phylosophy of our friend Ricky Bobby "If you ain't first, you're last!"

Ferals are middle of the pack. Putting them in the same bag as auto-attack Rets or Enh is fake news. I just had to correct that

[Tyrannica]

Irrelevant, if is not Naxx!



oh, wait, nothing changes...!

[Bigbazz]

He is actually right about feral and your comment just show how little you know about classic DPS specs. You can go take a look at Wowhead rankings if you're in doubt. Feral is on par with hunters and above them and locks with gnome weapon usage.

Can't compare with Enh or Ret.

He's not right at all, he said Feral is competitive with Rogues and Mages. And lets not forget the extremely specific items and consumable item farming that you must do forever in order to function as a dps in this way, the fact that many of your best items as Feral are already available while Rogues, Mages and Warriors have not even begun to scale yet, that some people think matters will improve relative to the big 3 is funny.

Lets also just ignore that Warcraft logs exists and supports what I'm saying... But even better is that LegacyPlayers logs website exists, showing logs from all private servers and guess what? It shows the exact same thing.. Though Druid is better than Enh/Ret overall, the rank 1 logs when you compare all 3 in AQ40 puts Feral in last place, Druid dps on the whole is 3rd from bottom in Classic.

Like I said before, by all means prove me wrong but all the evidence is clear, the same evidence that lead me to my conclusions to begin with.

Because a class is not S tier (that is only Mage atm and later on Warriors in AQ40/Naxx gear) doesn't make it garbage. Unless you follow to life phylosophy of our friend Ricky Bobby "If you ain't first, you're last!"

Ferals are middle of the pack. Putting them in the same bag as auto-attack Rets or Enh is fake news. I just had to correct that

Edit : Warrior/Rogue is above Mage in MC/Onyxia. DPS Warrior doesn't get good in Naxx, it's more like it got better as Vanilla progressed through patches and that happened to just fall in line with Naxx for the peak scaling. Right now on WCL Warrior is the top dps spec.

And Nobody is saying you can't play Feral, I was pointing out that Feral is actually competitive in TBC and then someone got mad and lays it on thick like Vanilla Ferals can compete with Rogues, ridiculous. Ferals being "middle of the pack" actually boils down to them being 3rd from bottom and competing for that position with Shadow Priests, aka doing less than 1/2 the dps of a Rogue/Warrior.

I'm sorry but the logs don't lie, lets not try to pretend Classic Ferals are as competitive as late TBC Ferals that can actually compete with real melee dps to some degree.

[Talon8669]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...1000#class=DPS

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...#class=Healers

These specs are ridiculously overtuned. Classes like hunter, paladin, druid and shaman have absolutely no chance at performing on a viable level. I understand people want no changes but if the tuning looks this bad (PS this tuning is worse than BFA) then I do not understand why the game is getting so much praise.

It's a shame when half of the classes in the game are not viable. I think of this as an absolute development failure.

Sorry to break it for you but there will be no nerfs or changes.

[Jastall]

In Vanilla warriors weren't classed as hybrids, they were the primary tank.

Also the "hybrid tax" didn't exist in Vanilla the way it did in later expansions, expected class roles were more diverse as "debuffer" and "hybrid/secondary healer" were in there. The community figured out it was easier to min-max and mostly concentrate on the tank/healer/damage-dealer trinity but it wasn't until TBC that specs were modified to mostly allow that, and the perfect solution for hybrid vs. pure dps classes was never really found (and may not exist.)

Also warriors were always a bit of a special case for balancing due to rage mechanics scaling, I'm not sure their high damage output in Vanilla was intentional.

In TBC the "hybrid tax" meant hybrid damage dealers could deal some pretty good damage pre-raid but scaled much worse than the pure damage dealers, as a result once you got passed the T4 raids they were often cut away unless the min-max formula said they would boost the raid more than taking an extra pure.

In WotLK they scaled better but were tuned to be a bit behind the pure classes. They also shared a pool of possible buffs/utility so raids were encouraged to take a mixture of the hybrid classes but weren't forced to take one particular spec for utility. They were also close enough that it wasn't game-breaking to take a few extra hybrid classes though you would still want mostly pure damage dealers.

Then at some point (I quit raiding after Wrath so I couldn't tell you when) Blizz decided to treat all damage dealing specs the same so their position on the meters was down to the vagaries of balancing and encounter design.

BTW, are you using the word "meme" instead of "joke" in your post?

I say it's a meme because it is an oft repeated design element of Classic among the fanbase (even if Blizzard might not have referred to it in that way at the time) but it was broken as soon as as they also decided that Warriors were allowed to be a dual-role class while excelling at both, IE the hybrid tax simply did not apply to them at all. Whenever Warriors were top DPS intentionally or not, it remains that they were the only ones that could feasibly do a tank's job in most raid content (which WAS intentional), on top of being in the top 3 DPS classes.

The perfect solution was never found because it does not exist. No matter how much of a hybrid you are, you can only do one thing at a time unless your class is specifically designed otherwise (IE Disc Priests from Legion onward, which IMO are a much better example of an hybrid than anything in Classic). Taxing hybrid in WoW makes no sense to me, especially the way it was done in Classic where the choice wasn't "you can either DPS or heal, but you'll be worse at it than pures", it was "all the classes with healing spells have to heal because their DPS specs completely suck so they might as well never bother",

[Gratlim]

He's not right at all, he said Feral is competitive with Rogues and Mages. And lets not forget the extremely specific items and consumable item farming that you must do forever in order to function as a dps in this way, the fact that many of your best items as Feral are already available while Rogues, Mages and Warriors have not even begun to scale yet, that some people think matters will improve relative to the big 3 is funny.

Lets also just ignore that Warcraft logs exists and supports what I'm saying... But even better is that LegacyPlayers logs website exists, showing logs from all private servers and guess what? It shows the exact same thing.. Though Druid is better than Enh/Ret overall, the rank 1 logs when you compare all 3 in AQ40 puts Feral in last place, Druid dps on the whole is 3rd from bottom in Classic.

Like I said before, by all means prove me wrong but all the evidence is clear, the same evidence that lead me to my conclusions to begin with.




Edit : Warrior/Rogue is above Mage in MC/Onyxia. DPS Warrior doesn't get good in Naxx, it's more like it got better as Vanilla progressed through patches and that happened to just fall in line with Naxx for the peak scaling. Right now on WCL Warrior is the top dps spec.

And Nobody is saying you can't play Feral, I was pointing out that Feral is actually competitive in TBC and then someone got mad and lays it on thick like Vanilla Ferals can compete with Rogues, ridiculous. Ferals being "middle of the pack" actually boils down to them being 3rd from bottom and competing for that position with Shadow Priests, aka doing less than 1/2 the dps of a Rogue/Warrior.

I'm sorry but the logs don't lie, lets not try to pretend Classic Ferals are as competitive as late TBC Ferals that can actually compete with real melee dps to some degree.

I don't disagree completely with what you say and agree I would never put feral as competing with mages and rogues. But one thing I would never use as an argument in this precise case is raid logs. 3 reasons:

1) The best players wanting to achieve the highest DPS will roll war / rogue / mage period.

2) Feral DPS as a much higher skill cap than classes in 1) because of powershift timing, shred positioning and management / energy management. And less rewarding as numbers are lower. Pushing further away players to 1)

3) Pretty sure the few actually playing feral dps are mostly not using 50% attack speed weapon systematically. Most could be spec hybrid tank / cat with UF as weapon and using bleeds for what we know

[ONCHEhap]

I disagree that anything in classic needs changed of course. and I agree with your first line.

I just want to point out that its not very hard to "balance tuning" when every fucking class is a clone of the other with renamed abilities. BFA is fuckin garbage.

I didn't want to appear too opinionated but....yeah it's hard to disagree with your statement on classes.I'm not gonna say that BfA is garbage,but yeah I'm not a fan of classes not having anything unique anymore