Loot Council v. Point systems like EPGP/DKP/etc. - What are your thoughts?

[munkeyinorbit]

Here's an idea.

A play in DKP.
You get points for attendance. Points for consumables and enchants and points for kill. You get points for progression wipes.

To balance it out for performance there is bonus points for anyone that does a specific job like MC the mobs in that fight. You get bonus points for topping that meter for your class if there enough (looking at the big three here).

This way loyal people get points, more points for progression raids, more people likely to volunteer for the shit job, and performance bonuses.

[Joycemiester]

Beware Loot Council where the officers are real life friends or long time in game friends. I'd never accept loot council under that and I'd find out ahead of time if that was the case.
Loot Council can work well but is not necessary unless you're pushing realm firsts and the like.

[Belloc]

Here's my problem with DKP:

Back when I raided MC in vanilla WoW, I was in an established guild. I was super excited to hit level 60 and raid with them, so I stayed up late the night before the raid and got myself attuned and hit max level. I showed up to my first MC raid and we cleared everything except Ragnaros...

And here's the problem: I was one of 3-5 warlocks. Every other warlock had massive amounts of DKP compared to me. None of the warlocks seemed to have more than one or two of their tier pieces. Warlock pieces weren't dropping.

Now, for those of you that didn't play back in vanilla, it was extremely common that long-time, established raiders with lots of DKP... might be truly terrible at the game. I may very well have outperformed some of these warlocks as a fresh level 60, but I had absolutely zero chance of receiving loot. Indeed, until I left the guild in BC, I never once had an opportunity to spend my DKP on gear. My skill didn't matter, my attendance didn't matter... all that mattered was that these other warlocks had a huge pile of DKP and what little warlock gear that dropped was sucked up by them.

Fair? Sure, I guess you could call it that. Fun? Absolutely not. Good for the guild's progression? No way.

DKP is an extremely punishing system for new raiders, especially when Classic raids drop such low quantities of loot. If you want to be constantly recruiting new trials, then, by all means, use DKP. Meanwhile, don't be surprised when your raiders decide to pug these raids instead, since that's the only way they'll have a chance of getting loot. Indeed, that's exactly how it worked for me: Our guild decided to skip a raid week (and then held an unplanned raid that very week...), so I pugged MC and got my first piece of loot from an MC boss. Indeed, every raid boss epic I had in vanilla WoW came from pugs, no matter how many raids I attended with my guild. Suuuuper fun and rewarding system.

[erifwodahs]

If that "lesser" dk shows up, kills bosses he has every right to the drop as the other 2 "Better" Dks. If the GUILD is about progression, why are they bringing a clearly underperforming player so often he can out bid the better players.

well, I think before joining the guild everyone should be aware about loot distribution systems. LC is superior in progress, DKP is better at keeping everyone somewhat happy. Both systems basically locks out new guys from getting loot. LC is bit softer in that regard, because after trial period is over you will get loot if you did good, while in DKP everyone gained as much as you did.

[MrExcelion]

I just see the 13 mages in raids rolling it out for a piece they'll never get. Are guilds really doing DKP? Would be nice to have this as a poll. That said, not much wrong with /roll on a lot of stuff since the gear isn't needed to complete the content and under some LC systems they'll never get a piece of loot at all since nothing drops. Seems like it's better to just clear with 20 people instead since the content is so easy. Everybodys playing mage now so it's kinda messed up anyway

[erifwodahs]

Beware Loot Council where the officers are real life friends or long time in game friends. I'd never accept loot council under that and I'd find out ahead of time if that was the case.
Loot Council can work well but is not necessary unless you're pushing realm firsts and the like.

My guild had real life friends and long time (Vanilla-BfA) guild friends in LC, also some of the best performers. 6 people overall, not every officer, but RL,healing officer, couple established dps, a healer I think and a main tank. Never had issues. Best performers were always prio for big upgrades. When it cam big upgrade for lesser performer and small upgrade for top performer, it most usually went to first one. Unless there was a progression fight with big check incoming that is. So yeah, not every LC is selfish.

[Joycemiester]

My guild had real life friends and long time (Vanilla-BfA) guild friends in LC, also some of the best performers. 6 people overall, not every officer, but RL,healing officer, couple established dps, a healer I think and a main tank. Never had issues. Best performers were always prio for big upgrades. When it cam big upgrade for lesser performer and small upgrade for top performer, it most usually went to first one. Unless there was a progression fight with big check incoming that is. So yeah, not every LC is selfish.

Obviously. Though I'd rather be on the cautious side.

[Monteverdi]

There's nothing better than loot council when it works. But there's also nothing more corruptible.

[Laqweeta]

I liked LC and DKP. I'm pretty used to both, and both serve their purpose quite well.

If I absolutely had to choose, I'd go with LC.

[Will]

Yeah because we didn't already have a massive thread about this already...

[AeneasBK]

Transparent Loot Council. If who is winning an item if it drops hasn't been sorted in advance of the first pull in the raid that night, it's potentially a corrupt system.

However if the guild has a lot of churn people seem to think a DKP or EP/GP system works better because reasons.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah because we didn't already have a massive thread about this already...

Ah c'mon it's been a staple thread title every couple of weeks since the Classic subforum was created

[ifrah]

Loot council works in my opinion better for min/maxing and/or realm first racing guilds. For less serious some sort of DKP would be better.

[Kaver]

The problem with dkp is point hoarding. People will save all their points for iconic items instead of using them on items which are actual upgrades but maybe not the best in the game.

[Heathy]

The problem with dkp is point hoarding. People will save all their points for iconic items instead of using them on items which are actual upgrades but maybe not the best in the game.

then they have no dkp again, the benefit of dkp is that the ppl who actually show up and raid are the ones winning items, you're not just handing out loot to ppl who then leave a week or so later. I think each time I've done dkp the list reset on a new tier so you couldn't bring 100s of dkp from tier 1 into tier 2.

[klaps_05]

Guilds that have non-objective LC fall apart quickly and if people stay in them, its their own fault for not finding a proper guild. Point system only measures attendance which is irrelevant. You want gear to go to the best players you have (as long as they are a top meta class). BiS lists are fully well known so people cant really lie what is bis and what isnt. There are full BiS lists per phase per spec so that should make gear distribution much easier.

[Aeula]

Why not need before greed or /roll with master loot? That’s what was used in retail in every raid I joined prior to personal loot.

[Kaver]

then they have no dkp again, the benefit of dkp is that the ppl who actually show up and raid are the ones winning items, you're not just handing out loot to ppl who then leave a week or so later. I think each time I've done dkp the list reset on a new tier so you couldn't bring 100s of dkp from tier 1 into tier 2.

My point is that smaller upgrades might go to waste if people are saving their points for the big ones. I’m not against dkp, I’m just pointing out the potential flawes that it might have from a overall raid group progress perspective. It’s not good if raid members intentionally cripple themselves because they want a certain item later on. That doesn’t help the raid overall.

[justandulas]

Dkp but for legendarys, loot council.

[Thage]

I don't think either system is inherently better. Both rely on fair and responsible behavior from guild leadership to work.

[Heathy]

its totally dependant on what actually drops but, I don't think ppl generally do that, from my experience, there maybe one or two items that ppl save for, but there is usually a balance between those ppl who want things now, and those who are happy waiting until later. everyone values different upgrades differently depending on what they already have. I was the sort to horde dkp, but mainly its because I either got lucky and got items cheap, or I was never much of a loot hound, i'd happily be the last person to get a specific item. it never really bothered me. I can remember when we finally got t2 priest leggings from ragnaros i went all in with my dkp, because for us they were like the holy grail and never dropped.

I think the main issue is you can never tell who is just going to up and leave or stop playing, you obviously don't want to gear up ppl who aren't going to help you progress, so generally a dkp system ensures that those who raid frequently, are the ones getting loot, and are more likely to actually stick around to earn the dkp they need to win said items. I think you can min/max if you want to with a loot council and funnel loot to the best parsers but that isn't going to be fun if you're not one of the best parsers, you just won't get loot. or you will have to be happy with getting gear last. largely i don't think it matters for t1. you could roll for gear and just have a 1 loot per raid rule or something and after a while the loot would likely spread itself around naturally. but the key is to spread it around to some degree, you funnel all the mage gear to your best parsing mage and he can't raid that day. well gg.