4 boss difficulties - the name of accessibility ruins all motivation to do it

[MiiiMiii]

As we all know we have 4 difficulties of raids. LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic.

In something like Classic, there is only 1 difficulty. 1 difficulty makes beating a boss, all have the exact same experience, all have the exact same loot dropping, all have the exact same feel of guild progression once it dies.

In Retail... You do a raid in LFR. Then it's not really a challenge, nor do you get any good gear from it. OK. Then you maybe find a guild and they do Normal. Still. The gear is just, meh, compared to M+. You already beat all the bosses on LFR, so it's not that cool to see a boss die. Repeat at Heroic difficulty. 3rd time I kill him? Eh ok. Same loot, just scaled to better ilvl? Eh ok. Mythic raiding. We already beat the same bosses on 3 different difficulties with the only benefit being scaled up gear. Why would we bother pushing into mythic? ...

Why not go back to the TBC model. Some raids (early raids) are easy. Some raids are small 10 man raids. Some raids are 25 man raids. Some 25 man raids are easy. Some 25 man raids are hard. Everyone has something to do.

I think the "Oh shit I beat Illidan!" feeling is completely gone in Retail due to the 4 difficulties. When you tell your friend you killed a boss, his first response should be "damn thats so cool!", not "what difficulty m8?"...

This multiple difficulty tactic from Blizzard might work on paper, more % of the playerbase see all raids than ever, probably... but at what cost? At the cost of anyone caring about getting gear enough to see a cool raid boss.

"Seeing that raid", "beating that boss" and "getting that loot" used to be the main motivator to rise up to be more hardcore. Not just "if u wanna beat same boss for the same gear scaled, go ahead m8. Maybe we throw in some mount for it too lol"...

Raids don't even have to be hard for people to enjoy them. Just look at classic and MC. It's a million times more fun to kill Ragnaros in Classic compared to killing Azhara Mythic in Retail, even if she is much MUCH harder. Harder does not mean better for the game.

[Nerovar]

Yeah, I couldn't really be bothered to enter raids except for farming legendaries like in MoP. The way they handle it these days just has absolutely no appeal for me.

[jellmoo]

Yes, but if you go back to that old TBC model of raiding, you'll probably end up with similar numbers of people actually seeing the content. With the current system, the content is accessible to players. The old system meant that the overwhelming majority of players never saw the content. It isn't exactly ideal to spend copious amounts of time and money on content that only 1 in 20 players will ever experience.

[Finear]

Raids don't even have to be hard for people to enjoy them. Just look at classic and MC. It's a million times more fun to kill Ragnaros in Classic compared to killing Azhara Mythic in Retail, even if she is much MUCH harder. Harder does not mean better for the game.

speak for yourself, getting a really hard kill in mythic feels much better
and rag on classic isn't really that fun

also why would blizz spend time and money on something that only a 5% of ppl ever see?

[Redroniksre]

The problem is, when you have low, low participation rates then it defeats all reason to even make that content to begin with. There is this misconception that if you make things inaccessible, it will encourage people to rise up to the challenge. Blizzard already stated a long time ago this is not the case, people do not rise up to the challenge. Not to mention locking story content behind raids that the average person cannot do is a stupid idea as it defeats the purpose of questing even having a story to begin with. I can understand people wanting less difficulties, but cutting LFR would only see numbers plummet at an accelerated rate.

[pewpmeiser]

Difficulty is subjective! If your guild struggles on normal, heroic, or mythic and you're working hard on getting that kill then the achievement feels good regardless. Accessibility is a good thing. Especially given how much hard work and resources the teams at Blizzard pour into the raid experience, it's a shame with the older model when a very, very low % of the population saw it.

[Kyphael]

I agree, in Wrath, when I zoned into a dungeon in LFD, having the Kingslayer title meant something. People knew there was at least one person in the group who had enough skill to survive the associated mechanics. Nowadays, none of it matters, which is why I'm satisfied with simply doing LFR and saying "hey, I killed Azshara. Yeah, LFR, but I'm satisfied." It involved little skill and even less commitment (a half hour Friday night.)

I like the idea of having different raid types for different instances, and even though I'd likely not experience as many raid bosses, I'd be fine with it. My time was Wrath when I had the time to put in for proper raiding. If I just got to see some raids that were easier, like Onyxia's Lair or Vault of Archavon style raids, and the hardcores get N'zoth and others, I'd be satisfied. Hell, I might even actually down N'zoth in regular mode later in the expansion when he's on farm as part of a guild's pug if he was never available to me in LFR.

[Rubim]

Difficulty is subjective! If your guild struggles on normal, heroic, or mythic and you're working hard on getting that kill then the achievement feels good regardless. Accessibility is a good thing. Especially given how much hard work and resources the teams at Blizzard pour into the raid experience, it's a shame with the older model when a very, very low % of the population saw it.

It diminish the value.

Look at Dark Souls and Seikiro for example.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I agree, in Wrath, when I zoned into a dungeon in LFD, having the Kingslayer title meant something. People knew there was at least one person in the group who had enough skill to survive the associated mechanics. Nowadays, none of it matters, which is why I'm satisfied with simply doing LFR and saying "hey, I killed Azshara. Yeah, LFR, but I'm satisfied." It involved little skill and even less commitment (a half hour Friday night.)

I like the idea of having different raid types for different instances, and even though I'd likely not experience as many raid bosses, I'd be fine with it. My time was Wrath when I had the time to put in for proper raiding. If I just got to see some raids that were easier, like Onyxia's Lair or Vault of Archavon style raids, and the hardcores get N'zoth and others, I'd be satisfied. Hell, I might even actually down N'zoth in regular mode later in the expansion when he's on farm as part of a guild's pug if he was never available to me in LFR.

You only get the title on Mythic. If you have the Azshara title, you get that same prestige.

[Kyphael]

You only get the title on Mythic. If you have the Azshara title, you get that same prestige.

Oh... well then my argument is moot and invalid. Lol

[fatgunn]

"Seeing that raid", "beating that boss" and "getting that loot" used to be the main motivator to rise up to be more hardcore.

Why do people need to be "more hardcore"? If somebody only ever wants to do Normal or LFR that's fine. This is a game, if somebody is having fun doing their content, let them.

[MiiiMiii]

Difficulty is subjective! If your guild struggles on normal, heroic, or mythic and you're working hard on getting that kill then the achievement feels good regardless.

As I said, the TBC model. Some raids are easy. Some are hard. It's OK that your guild can't beat Sunwell. Your guild is still happy to progress in Black Temple. It's fine. Not all guilds have to be doing the exact same latest and greatest raid.

[spleen1015]

I like LFR. I can go in and kill bosses whenever I feel like it.

I like Normal & Heroic. I can go in with my guild on schedule raid night and kill bosses. I can still get AOTC and only raid 4-6 hours a week.

I don't care about Mythic. The time commitment that mythic guilds require is too much for me. I don't see a need to get rid of it just because I don't care about it or like it.

Shooting for AOTC every raid tier is a good enough goal for me. I don't need anything else from it.

I will never understand the mindset of the people who want to remove options from other people. If you don't like something, don't participate. It doesn't take anything away from you.

[Mirishka]

As we all know we have 4 difficulties of raids. LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic.

In something like Classic, there is only 1 difficulty. 1 difficulty makes beating a boss, all have the exact same experience, all have the exact same loot dropping, all have the exact same feel of guild progression once it dies.

<snip>

Raids don't even have to be hard for people to enjoy them. Just look at classic and MC. It's a million times more fun to kill Ragnaros in Classic compared to killing Azhara Mythic in Retail, even if she is much MUCH harder. Harder does not mean better for the game.

I know you think that you speak for everyone... but you don't.

[erifwodahs]

A raid which we can clear in a night or two... compared to a boss which takes 3 weeks? suuure. Killing Rag is like clearing EN HC.

[Marrilaife]

Well in classic if you wanted end game loot, you had to raid. You often had to raid for months and gather DKP to even get a single item.

Then casuals cried how they're "excluded" so enter titanforge, wq loot, emissary loot, warfront loot, benthic, dungeon / m+ loot that doesn't stop on "ready to raid" stage but goes all the way up, world boss loot (and world bosses are complete zerg fest not like dragons of nightmare in vanilla that were actually not easy to kill), etc.

People got what they wanted, endless shower of "epixx" and now they whine "it's not meaningful or motivating". You reap what you sow.

[Amerissis]

In Retail... You do a raid in LFR. Then it's not really a challenge, nor do you get any good gear from it. OK. Then you maybe find a guild and they do Normal. Still. The gear is just, meh, compared to M+. You already beat all the bosses on LFR, so it's not that cool to see a boss die. Repeat at Heroic difficulty. 3rd time I kill him? Eh ok. Same loot, just scaled to better ilvl? Eh ok. Mythic raiding. We already beat the same bosses on 3 different difficulties with the only benefit being scaled up gear. Why would we bother pushing into mythic? ...

Yet you kill the same boss 10-20+ times on the same difficulty for weeks on end and that's fine? But god forbid you could do it on a different difficulty... None of this concerns you. Go do the difficulty you like, there's no need to go from LFR to Mythic and do all difficulties. Pick one. Farm that one. Pick two, farm those. It doesn't matter. Either way you'll be doing the same boss over and over and over and over and over and over...

[Mirishka]

I like LFR. I can go in and kill bosses whenever I feel like it.

I like Normal & Heroic. I can go in with my guild on schedule raid night and kill bosses. I can still get AOTC and only raid 4-6 hours a week.

I don't care about Mythic. The time commitment that mythic guilds require is too much for me. I don't see a need to get rid of it just because I don't care about it or like it.

Shooting for AOTC every raid tier is a good enough goal for me. I don't need anything else from it.

I will never understand the mindset of the people who want to remove options from other people. If you don't like something, don't participate. It doesn't take anything away from you.

Amen. Gotta love the 'you should have fun the way I think you should' mold of gamer, am I right?

[TwoMana]

In Retail... You do a raid in LFR.

OK.

Then you maybe find a guild and they do Normal.

Is this a chronological, one-time story? Well ok yeah, true this one time. But next time, you can skip LFR.

Repeat at Heroic difficulty. 3rd time I kill him?

Yeah, in your story. But again, now that you're in a Heroic guild, why would you ever go to LFR again? And you probably won't be doing Normal very many times either.

Mythic raiding.

Right, so you'd never do LFR or Normal. And depending on what kind of guild you're in, you probably do limited Heroic runs (and you clear it in one farm night anyhow).

You farm bosses for you appropriate raid difficulty. Just like you'd farm any other farm raids/bosses in the TBC model. If you're in Mythic guild, why the hell would you ever go to LFR or Normal?
What's the problem?

[cparle87]

As I said, the TBC model. Some raids are easy. Some are hard. It's OK that your guild can't beat Sunwell. Your guild is still happy to progress in Black Temple. It's fine. Not all guilds have to be doing the exact same latest and greatest raid.

And then the raid department gets their budget cut because their costs outweigh the participation and you end up with raids that are copy/pastes of existing areas and/or entire raids simply scrapped. Like in Wrath and Cata.