4 boss difficulties - the name of accessibility ruins all motivation to do it

[Kithelle]

This premise is true, the way how we get there is different for early expansions and later ones though. The biggest problem are the catch up mechanics that are established nowadays that make previous tiers obsolete. Not everybody should be able to hop into the most recent tier immediately.

Oh and my impression is that you raid for fun and gear is a nice addition and not vice versa. And I am raiding since 2006 in WoW so I think I know how it works but thanks for trying to educate me.

Just because you find it fun to go through earlier instances to get gear doesn't negate the fact many only go through them to gear, if you want to go through earlier raids nothing is stopping you from doing such, you don't seem to understand that. Just because you can catch up to raid b and skip raid a doesn't mean you can't do raid a if you don't want to.

Because you don't like it you think it should be taken out is just like the people who want LFR gotten rid of because they don't like it.

[Nyel]

Just because you find it fun to go through earlier instances to get gear doesn't negate the fact many only go through them to gear, if you want to go through earlier raids nothing is stopping you from doing such, you don't seem to understand that. Just because you can catch up to raid b and skip raid a doesn't mean you can't do raid a if you don't want to.

Because you don't like it you think it should be taken out is just like the people who want LFR gotten rid of because they don't like it.

And you seem to misunderstand the purpose of my statements. Staggered raids offer overall more content for players because non of the content is devalued. All raids have a meaning and are useful so you can progress through them. If you just return in BfA now you skip Uldir, BoD and CoS and can directly go into EP because all the other raids are basically worth- and meaningless. With a staggered system you would have three times the amount of raids available and you'd slowly progress through Uldir and BoD first to get into EP in the end. You lose nothing but you get a lot more (raiding) content in the end. That's how TBC did it up until 2.4 when the catch up gear was implemented.

[americandavey]

OP: "It's a million times more fun to kill Ragnaros in Classic compared to killing Azhara Mythic in Retail, even if she is much MUCH harder."

No it was more fun to Kill Rag in Vanilla wow, where no one knew shit. It was more satisfied when my guildmates and I spent weeks and weeks in MC to finally have the gear to attempt Rag. Nothing in Classic will EVER compare to that first time Vanilla Rag kill.

[Dorothyjean]

Except fact is that game desing shape players behaviour. It is not peoples fault at all. And LFR caused huge amounth of players quiting game as baseline game is just not fun for most people. You can say how they should engage in higher difficulty game as you want. They wont do it. They alredy got bored and wont touch such content. Than you can say well its their choice. Sure it is hust like not playing game and paying sub becouse game is boring. If yoi think players quiting game is fine than you are truly delusional. You want to keep system is game what is fun for some and boring for many. It is not players responsibilty to enage in what is fun for them. Its developers responsibilty.

If it's not a players responsibility to engage what is fun for them than why even buy or play video games? It is solely up to you what you like and you take chances on new stuff to see if you like it and after that it's all on you what you want to do. World of Warcraft is designed to be accessible to everyone and it's your choice at what level you want to play. If you don't like LFR -- don't do it. It's literally that simple. I don't like Mythic+ and I do it every now and then for something different to do but I still raid 4 nights a week but I don't shit on M+ -- it's just not my thing.

LFR didn't cause anyone to leave the game ... a bunch of whiny crybabies left the game because it wasn't designed for them specifically and they whined about it. I have multiple AOTC's, Hand of A'dal title and have been raiding a lot since the start of BC and LFR has never bugged me once to leave. What makes me leave are the time sinks in the game that are insanely idiotic like Artifact power or even now with Azerite power where I feel like I have to keep "doing stuff" in order to maintain a high level of raiding for myself. I'd rather just hang with my guild, raid and then do whatever else I want but no... every raid... and then right after "Hey... M+? M+? M+? Islands? Need that Azerite fix!" ad naseum.

It's a video game ... it's not a life choice. If the game becomes boring for you, you quit the video game and if you want to bitch about it go ahead but no one cares ultimately. As you said "They won't do it" ... well don't! Don't do LFR but by all means shut the f up about it for being boring and dull or as many people do who feel like this "oh look at me, I'm gonna do LFR and be a dickhead or go AFK or LOL I stayed outside the room and made the boss reset... man I'm awesome at this video game and should be an asshole to other people because LFR sucks for me.

People always quit video games -- how am I delusional? Ultima Online was my first MMO and it had thousands of players when it came out and it had like 250,000 subscribers and now it's not even close to that. Should I blame Ultima Online for dwindling numbers even though their game became easier? No, I quit a VIDEO GAME and played another VIDEO GAME. :P

[kaminaris]

I'd argue further, but you are obviously living in your own world, separated from reality.

Ah no, what he said is most likely correct. Pretty sure he lives in reality.

[Jastall]

Why not? If it's worth it? If your raid isn't capable of doing T6 content there should be any reason for you to do T6 content. That's what T4 and T5 are for. If you're good enough you can do T6 then. Hopping directly into T6 is the problem as it is nowadays. You can level in BfA from 110-120 now do some Nazjatar stuff and you can directly go into the latest tier = major f* up of your own content as you devalue the majority of your (=Blizzard) own work.

Because this isn't a single-player game. If you tell me I gotta do level X before doing X+1 in Dragon Age or The Witcher, OK, makes sense, I got all the time in the world to do it.

In an MMO, times change and people move on. Inevitably the lower tiers become less attractive and running them turns into a chore for lots of players. You need at least 20 people to tango (25 in TBC). If you played during the right time and are in the progression curve, great! If you're not, get ready to likely be carried by people who have no desire to run the bleeding content in the first place, or be forever stuck in Kara with the rest of the scrubs.

I can't say the current model's perfect. But I can say the TBC model of raiding is the one I hated the most- and that's speaking as someone who got poached and benefited from it.

[Dormie]

TBC was my favorite model. Not saying we need to have 8 raids to progress through, but there should be more than 1 at a time.

[Malikath]

I'd argue further, but you are obviously living in your own world, separated from reality.

they can remain there as it ends.

[TheRevenantHero]

I'd argue further, but you are obviously living in your own world, separated from reality.

Ah huh. I'm living in my own little world purely because I make more sense than you.

[Echeyakee]

I do agree that 4 difficulties is kind of ridiculous. I would advocate to at least merge LFR and normal. Make it about as difficult as normal, i.e. if you're a complete idiot, you will die, but probably not wipe the raid, unless half of the raid is dead. And leave in the LFR like queuing for solo players to join, but give an option to manually enter the instance, without having to queue, for guilds that don't want randoms with them.

[Th3Scourge]

The game as it is, already rewards gear in Mythic+ that is equivalent of Mythic Raiding gear.

In what world does Mythic+ reward Mythic raid equivalent gear? there's a 15 ilvl difference between the two at +10 and 5ilvl difference in at +10 cache (once per week)

[TheRevenantHero]

I do agree that 4 difficulties is kind of ridiculous. I would advocate to at least merge LFR and normal. Make it about as difficult as normal, i.e. if you're a complete idiot, you will die, but probably not wipe the raid, unless half of the raid is dead. And leave in the LFR like queuing for solo players to join, but give an option to manually enter the instance, without having to queue, for guilds that don't want randoms with them.

Of all the ideas I've heard about changing LFR, I like this one the most.

[swatsonqt]

Why should something that you dont participate in be removed? How egocentric can you be?

because it hurts the overall game.

It's not just me not participating. Looking at the overall playerbase nobody is participating except for a few that keep doing it.

And that's where the problem occurs. For the the gretest part of the community mythic raiding is not a thing because it's simply too much effort for a video game hobby.
And for all those people what is left? Heroic raiding. Know let's be honest heroic raiding is not an accomplishment. There are not much people who will rise up against the challenge (of the heroic diffucilty) when they know that there is the next difficultly waiting for them where they simply can't take part.

Nobody works for the juice 430 items when they know that there is 445 available. I don't know a single person who is happy to have their heroic achv "accomplished" with thier x days heroic raiding guild. It's just frustrating to work on that level just to discover that despite all your effort you have, in fact, accomplished kind of nothing.

I remember days where people where happy to get to sindragosa on hc because...well . they might not have killed the LK but "damn we got most of that fucking raid done" and guess what it was the last difficultly that was available. Didn't matter that method or whoever killed the LK few weeks before, because you could actually show that you're kind of working on the same level.

All in all i would say that removing mythic would boost raid and organised raid participatian because well... you can actually take part you know? And not just watch someone else kill the hard shit, even if that means that you won't necessary kill every boss in the raid. I would say that a hard 8/9 feels better than a weak 9/9 on the idiot difficulty...but maybe that's just my opinion in the end: what do i know for sure?

[Dormie]

The worst argument I see is "why do you care"? It's just not an argument at all.
I want free BiS gear. "Why do you care if I get BiS gear for free? It doesn't affect your game"
People with absolutely no grasp of game design use this argument for everything.

[Daffan]

k you're wrong but go off

content drought says hi

avg player sub retention says hi

[Tuhokoura]

Well... then dont kill the bosses in any other difficulty than mythic?

[rohoz]

content drought says hi

avg player sub retention says hi

wotlk had the longest "content drought" and the highest player growth

what is the truth?

people were happy as fuck to farm 232 gear for an entire year and never do the raid. WotLK was also the poster child for "catch up/welfare"

content drought is just a meme by mmo-champ mouthbreathers

[Elias01]

wotlk had the longest "content drought" and the highest player growth

what is the truth?

people were happy as fuck to farm 232 gear for an entire year and never do the raid. WotLK was also the poster child for "catch up/welfare"

content drought is just a meme by mmo-champ mouthbreathers

TBC had biggest player grow not wotlk.

[rohoz]

TBC had biggest player grow not wotlk.

oh, highest concurrent playerbase, then. whatever. the graph is a stupid meme anyway.

Point still stands. More people played when content was piss easy and they just rolled heroics and never did raids. I'm glad you didn't attempt to dispute the meat of the post.

And ICC patch was also if not the longest, the 2nd longest content patch. Maybe deathwing patch was longer but I'm unsure/don't care

[Asaliah]

Can't sadly I have +6h time difference with my server