BfA Patch Speculation thread (8.3 and later).

[Nyel]

There has been an undercurrent of Void and Death themed storylines this entire expansion. Azerite, the Heart of Azeroth, G'huun, Bwonsamdi, the Drust, the Crucible of Storms, Xal'atath, Azshara, King Mechagon, N'Zoth, and Wrathion.

If you didn't recognize all of that bubbling just under the surface of the Faction War, you must be blind.

"Bubbling under the surface" doesn't make it the main plot of BfA. That's the point.

Yes, all of those topics always were there and it's good that they were there. The problem is the faction war storyline was all over the place and further fueled by EVERYTHING Blizzard released as promo/advertising/marketing material surrounding BfA. And then to say "that's it", wrap it up in a tiny patch with a tiny questline feels just... wrong. It feels like they abandoned the idea and just wanted it to end so they can move on from it because not only the players but the devs themselves are sick and tired of the faction war topic they started.

[Strawberry]

So basically, Sylvanas started the faction war so more would die and end up in Shadowlands as "souls" since there's something really nasty about to happen there, like we're needed to fight the Void in Shadowlands.
Blizzard will probably come up with an excuse why it had to happen this way and end up "redeeming" her.

[Sondrelk]

So basically, Sylvanas started the faction war so more would die and end up in Shadowlands as "souls" since there's something really nasty about to happen there, like we're needed to fight the Void in Shadowlands.
Blizzard will probably come up with an excuse why it had to happen this way and end up "redeeming" her.

Redeeming her seems out of the question at this juncture. If Blizzard wanted to redeem her in the near future they would have sown the seeds already. If she gets redeemed it will be in an expansion several years from now.

[Jalham]

For the same reason it would be awful writing if we used a mana bomb on ICC, the lich king ran away and we had a final raid about Dragons.

They are called sidestories for a reason, and that is because tehy are not the main story. And basic writing dictates that you should properly end your main plot before you move on to other stories.

Faction war was "main story" for 8.0 only, not beyond. Again why are you insisting that the whole expansion should follow one plot and only focus on it ? Why are you insisting that "alliance vs horde" is the most important thing ever this expansion just because its what started the whole expansion ? Wrath was an Arthas expansion from beginning to end, its not the same with BFA. BFA from the beginning showed through its leveling zones and patches that its a multiple plot kind of expansion not a single minded one. Thats the difference.

[Ophenia]

No, what i am saying is that a story should stick to its guns and not ditch a concpet midway.

If Blizzard wanted to tell a grand story of faction war with understones of Old gods and various factions of death that gradually coalesced together into a final patch where Sylvanas used teh faction war as a means to gain dead bodies to fight N'zoth, then all the power to them.
But you cannot simply start with faction war, go all in on faction war, then midway switch tracks by having the antagonist run away form the story, leaving you with teh b-story villain.

Imagine if Arthas ran away in a cinematic in the patch before ICC, and the rest of teh expansion was about dragons. It would make no sense narratively, because the villain of the expansion left before we got a resolution to the main plotline.


Stories should definitely have sidestories to pad out the main story, otherwise it becomes pretty bland. But if you want the expansion to end with something different from what it started with then you need to gradually marry teh disparate plot elements. Not just throw half of it away.

In the case of N'zoth, well that's the weakest Old God that is known for acting sneakily through whispers and controlling people. It makes sense it feels like "coming out of nowhere", N'zoth won't be that threat who will come out full tentacle mode telling yourself he is the real king here. He's supposed to be sneaky, and he was for a long time.

Were you complaining when Legion was all about fighting Legion and then the two last bosses of the last raid of the expac were Titans with the help of Titans ?

[Kathranis]

There was definitely an undercurrent. The main plotline was still about faction war. And removing the antagonist in the faction war storyline does not suddenly mean it makes sense to have the sidestories be the main plot.

Do you like, I don't know, ever watch movies or TV shows, or read books? Because your comprehension of storytelling seems pretty one dimensional.

There are multiple plotlines. We're transitioning from a surface level storyline into the deeper undercurrent that was actually driving it. The faction conflict is a just a symptom of the machinations of greater forces (void + death) and now that the surface level threat is resolved, we need to focus on the deeper threat.

[Sondrelk]

Faction war was "main story" for 8.0 only, not beyond. Again why are you insisting that the whole expansion should follow one plot and only focus on it ? Why are you insisting that "alliance vs horde" is the most important thing ever this expansion just because its what started the whole expansion ? Wrath was an Arthas expansion from beginning to end, its not the same with BFA. BFA from the beginning showed through its leveling zones and patches that its a multiple plot kind of expansion not a single minded one. Thats the difference.

Could have fooled me with the incursions, faction war raid andd faction war storyline.

[Cosmic Janitor]

yeah sums it up very good. Personally I would like a xpac reveal at Blizzcon and a smaller content patch for BfA that takes us into next xpac in a reasonable way.

I think a wow xpac reval at Blizzcon heavily depend on what else Blizzard has to show us. If they out of nowhere reveal a huge new game, they dont really have to announce a wow xpac there. But if all they got are content updates for current IPs, a wow xpac announcement is needed.

Especially after last years con they need something big this time around.

Even if they unveil D4 as their main feature, all the wow guys that go to blizzcon would probably like to have something interesting for them as well. Especially since this is one of the Blizzcons where people expect neas about the next expansion.

[Nyel]

So basically, Sylvanas started the faction war so more would die and end up in Shadowlands as "souls" since there's something really nasty about to happen there, like we're needed to fight the Void in Shadowlands.
Blizzard will probably come up with an excuse why it had to happen this way and end up "redeeming" her.

I don't know how they could redeem her.

Burning of Teldrassil - Killing Saurfang - "The Horde is NOTHING!" - Leaving the Forsaken

How do you want to redeem her after all of that?

Look at Jaina. They redeemed her because it was possible. She purged Dalaran (as reaction to the Theramore bombing) and then left right before Legion without killing anyone or yelling "F* THE ALLIANCE, F* YOU ALL!". And in the end she was still looking for her people (Kul Tirans) and came back and then got redeemed. This wouldn't work for Sylvanas anymore.

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Faction war was "main story" for 8.0 only, not beyond.

What? 8.1 is all about faction war, so is 8.2.5. You can discuss if 8.1.5 is more faction war or Old Gods but most patches this expansion had a clear faction war focus.

[Sondrelk]

Do you like, I don't know, ever watch movies or TV shows, or read books? Because your comprehension of storytelling seems pretty one dimensional.

There are multiple plotlines. We're transitioning from a surface level storyline into the deeper undercurrent that was actually driving it. The faction conflict is a just a symptom of the machinations of greater forces (void + death) and now that the surface level threat is resolved, we need to focus on the deeper threat.

The point here is taht if the faction war is a sympton of something in the background, then that connection should have been made obvious by now. Have sylvanas declare her Alliegiance to N'zoth. Have Azshara say that the faction war was all started by her. Anything substantial beyond ditching teh story and patching on somehting unrelated.

[crusadernero]

Even if they unveil D4 as their main feature, all the wow guys that go to blizzcon would probably like to have something interesting for them as well. Especially since this is one of the Blizzcons where people expect neas about the next expansion.

yeah I guess. No matter, no xpac reveal will come down as a bad thing this year, since it is expected.

[Kathranis]

The point here is taht if the faction war is a sympton of something in the background, then that connection should have been made obvious by now.

It was obvious to most people from the start.

Have sylvanas declare her Alliegiance to N'zoth.

She's not allied with N'Zoth, she's allied with death. She's been pitting the Horde and Alliance against each other to bolster the forces of death. And now she's going to let the Horde and Alliance fight N'Zoth for the same reason.

Have Azshara say that the faction war was all started by her.

The faction war was started by Sylvanas, to get people killed. And Sylvanas made a bargain with Azshara to get more people killed.

They are not "ditching" a story. Have you actually read the questlines? You seem to not understand the most basic, obvious aspects.


This is not a simple "start the story and then end it and then create a new story for the next expansion."

This is one long string of events that is going to span multiple expansions, starting with Vol'jin's death and Sylvanas's appointment as the Warchief in Legion, her bargain with Helya, her manipulation of the Horde, Alliance, and even N'Zoth in BFA, and on into whatever comes next, be that the Shadowlands or Black Empire or whatever.

[Magnosh]

yeah sums it up very good. Personally I would like a xpac reveal at Blizzcon and a smaller content patch for BfA that takes us into next xpac in a reasonable way.

I think a wow xpac reval at Blizzcon heavily depend on what else Blizzard has to show us. If they out of nowhere reveal a huge new game, they dont really have to announce a wow xpac there. But if all they got are content updates for current IPs, a wow xpac announcement is needed.

Especially after last years con they need something big this time around.

If they don't reveal the next expansion at Blizzcon they are completely doomed especially after last Blizzcon fiasco. I honestly don't believe they will take the chance to be ''Boooohoooed'' twice in a row at their own event.

[Nyel]

yeah I guess. No matter, no xpac reveal will come down as a bad thing this year, since it is expected.

I think one thing we shouldn't worry about is an upcoming expansion announcement at Blizzcon.

[Sondrelk]

It was obvious to most people from the start.


She's not allied with N'Zoth, she's allied with death. She's been pitting the Horde and Alliance against each other to bolster the forces of death. And now she's going to let the Horde and Alliance fight N'Zoth for the same reason.


The faction war was started by Sylvanas, to get people killed. And Sylvanas made a bargain with Azshara to get more people killed.

They are not "ditching" a story. Have you actually read the questlines? You seem to not understand the most basic, obvious aspects.

The problem here is that you have yet to give a compelling argument for why N'zoth will be the final boss in an expansion about faction war perpetrated by Sylvanas.

You have given examples of how there is more to it than just faction war, but nothing yet on how exactly N'zoth is integral to the story we were given at the beginning.

[Samin]

The problem here is that you have yet to give a compelling argument for why N'zoth will be the final boss in an expansion about faction war perpetrated by Sylvanas.

You have given examples of how there is more to it than just faction war, but nothing yet on how exactly N'zoth is integral to the story we were given at the beginning.

Because he is the bigger, immediate threat? Has nothing to do with the arguments, it's just what seems logical to me.

I mean, we don't know the true size of Sylvanas' threat - we simply can't. But given the world-destroying threat of N'Zoth and the definitely immediate nature of it, this kinda has to be priority. Also from a story-telling standpoint, everything around Syvlanas death theme is much more vague than all the old god stuff, like the literal (physical?) release of the old god N'Zoth. Sylvanas is set up for more (calling back to why we can't really know the size of her threat, we don't know enough about it), N'Zoth is set up for a death/defeat, similar to Sargeras at the end of Legion.

[Vasoka]

I don't know how to explain to ppl who keep repeating "AHMAGAD WAR WAS POINTLESS" that it wasn't even remotely so, they keep repeating the same thing like parrots. Sylvanas needed corpses and mayhem, aka needed souls to send to Helya. She even praises how many deaths there have been in the war (seeming rather satisfied) when you speak with her as a loyalist.

[Sondrelk]

Because he is the bigger, immediate threat? Has nothing to do with the arguments, it's just what seems logical to me.

I mean, we don't know the true size of Sylvanas' threat - we simply can't. But given the world-destroying threat of N'Zoth and the definitely immediate nature of it, this kinda has to be priority. Also from a story-telling standpoint, everything around Syvlanas death theme is much more vague than all the old god stuff, like the literal (physical?) release of the old god N'Zoth. Sylvanas is set up for more (calling back to why we can't really know the size of her threat, we don't know enough about it), N'Zoth is set up for a death/defeat, similar to Sargeras at the end of Legion.

Stories do not run on logic, they run on tropes.

It does not matter how many arrows the main character tanks, he will survive until the end because teh story would not function otherwise. It does not matter how implausible it is for the orphan girl to be adopted by a wizard that takes her on magical adventures, if teh story demands it, then it shall be so.

A story like this demands a resolution, not what is logical.

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I don't know how to explain to ppl who keep repeating "AHMAGAD WAR WAS POINTLESS" that it wasn't even remotely so, they keep repeating the same thing like parrots. Sylvanas needed corpses and mayhem, aka needed souls to send to Helya. She even praises how many deaths there have been in the war (seeming rather satisfied) when you speak with her as a loyalist.

The war was not pointless, per se. But N'zoth certainly is. He adds nothing to the story of faction war. And if the main purpose of BfA was to make N'zoth the villain then the faction war was pretty pointless overall, wasnt it`?

[Kathranis]

I don't know how they could redeem her.

Burning of Teldrassil - Killing Saurfang - "The Horde is NOTHING!" - Leaving the Forsaken

How do you want to redeem her after all of that?

I'm not going to say it'll be a redemption arc, but Blizzard writes archetypal stories that tend to follow pretty obvious blueprints.

Everything Sylvanas has done, going back to her bargain with Helya in Legion, and perhaps as far back as her pact with the valkyr, has been in service of "death," whatever that vague notion actually represents.

Now, I don't want to let those "leaks" prejudice my speculation as to what will happen next, so it's entirely possible that Death and the Void will both be enemies in turn, in which case Sylvanas will probably go the Lich King route and we'll have to kill her, and the Void will just be the next threat down the line (or vice versa).

However, it really does seem likely to me that the forces of death are going to be trying to defend Azeroth from the Void, because life and death are two sides of the same coin, and the void lords are clearly the biggest threat in the series. Whether or not the Shadowlands "leaks" had any kernels of truth in them, they do seem like precisely the kind of story that Blizzard tends to tell, and I think at the end of the day, the storyline we get will not be too far removed from that idea.

Sylvanas is fueling an army of the dead to fight the void lords. And that's her "redemption," just like Illidan, and even Sargeras. She's an "ends justify the means" antihero. It's not original, but neither is Blizzard.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah, you know what. This discussion is going nowhere, i have made my position on this topic clear enough as is, and talking about is honestly tiring me out.



So onto more interesting matters.

Anyone else think there might be more quests waiting to be released before Blizzcon, or at the very least before 8.3? Seeing as Wrathion got that new model, but no use for it yet.
Calia as well got only the barest of mentions, so i am wondering whether they ahve more with her up their sleeves as the weeks go.