[Spoilers] So, what really is the Fourth War ?

[Jester Joe]

The problem here is that dumb people don't understand that ceasefires =/= end of a war.

It was a treaty.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stormshield_Guard

[Traveler Voltin]

Yeah, he said "thematically it is IMO" (which means "in my opinion", in case your first language isn't English, not being rude), not "yes, this is a hard fact".

Here's the tweet https://twitter.com/ChrisMetzen/stat...85452511858689

someone is quick to push his agenda.
how sad.

[Biske]

someone is quick to push his agenda.
how sad.

Huh? What agenda?

[Highelf]

Honestly, I never got the feeling of a WAR during Cata or MoP. We stopped Garrosh before he couldn't really do the whole WAR thing. And if we're talking about wars between the factions then WC3 was not the 3rd.

[rhorle]

I don't see it as wrong. War doesn't mean there was no other conflicts. I just think that the actions prior to BfA were not large enough to be considered a full scale war. Even Garrosh wasn't really a war and more small skirmishes around the "evil" bad guy of the expansion.

We also have what is the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd wars. Though some of the info was changed/shuffled by the Chronicles.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/First_War
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Second_War
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Third_War

They are not named as the "only" wars to take place. They are just the "great" wars. Just like in the real world we are not up to world war 82 even though we have had different countries fight.

[Hitei]

It was a treaty.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stormshield_Guard

Do you think that a ceasefire isn't a treaty?

[Biske]

There's also this https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Azeroth_Campaign

The description itself mentions that the Fourth War hadn't happened by the point it was added (which was during Legion).

The First War ended with the second siege of Stormwind, which saw it destroyed. This war saw the destruction of Teldrassil, Undercity, and several smaller towns (such as Brennadam) and outposts and the invasion of Dazar'alor culminating in the death of Rastakhan. Not sure about the canon status of Stromgarde, but it was at the very least canonically attacked. It just FEELS like not much happened, for whatever reason. Maybe because we're just going around doing poop-gathering quests and attacking weird side-threats while all this fighting is going on.

[Count Zero]

There's also this https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Azeroth_Campaign

The description itself mentions that the Fourth War hadn't happened by the point it was added (which was during Legion).

Well following a link from that page to their 4th War page - it says it's the BFA Campaign is, itself, the 4th War.

[Biske]

Well following a link from that page to their 4th War page - it says it's the BFA Campaign is, itself, the 4th War.

Yep! That's what I'm saying.

[Jester Joe]

Do you think that a ceasefire isn't a treaty?

Considering a ceasefire is during which one makes a treaty...

[Monster Hunter]

This has been driving me nuts. The Fourth War between the Horde and Alliance began, as far as I'm concerned, in The Shattering. The Alliance violated the WC3-WotLK treaty by "entering" Horde waters on the return from Northrend. Garrosh "observed" this and yet showed "mercy" on them so they could send news back to Varian. The Horde violated the treaty by slaughtering Night Elves in Ashenvale shortly afterwards and leaving their flayed corpses hung from the trees. The former was a result of Elemental Unrest and the latter was the result of Twilight Hammer shenanigans, but that doesn't change the outcome.

Many attribute the Legion Assault on Hyjal as The Third War but the Third War between the Horde and Alliance was arguably instigated by Thrall liberating the Internment Camps. But I think most people will agree it was Daelin's aggression and pursuit of the Horde despite Thrall's peaceful envoy that really instigated the end of peace time. I'll also include Grom's attack on the Night Elves, and by retroactive extension proto-Theramore, as an act of war. But it is clearly ended by the time of Cycle of Hatred (just before Classic begins). Page 181 of Chronicle Vol. 3 even states that "War was averted" at the Battle for Undercity in WotLK, so War must not have been in situ as of WotLK, or else it can't have been averted.

So the debate becomes, did MoP not count as the end of the Fourth War? Well... Garrosh was desposed. The Horde and Alliance worked mutually at the Dark Red Portal. Sure Ashran got tricky but it was clear from the RP around towns that it was an isolated skirmish and not a war. Even if we pretend, as is probably a fair shout, that no lore in WoD counted. We work alongside each other at the Broken Shore. There is a clear armistice in place. I believe Vol'jin even states this in the aftermath of SoO.

BfA starts with the War of Thorns and has been collectively referred to as The Blood War. So this indicates that each mini-war was a war. It's a mess. But if the generic numbered "Wars" refer implicitly to wars between the Horde and Alliance then I would consider this the end of the Fifth War.

But, then we get really meta, and try to think forwards. If this expansion marks a departure from the very concepts of factions as they have existed since the end of the Third War, we could argue that everything from Vanilla through to BfA was all a part of the "Fourth War" era. This covers Year 22 (the Year after the Battle for Mount Hyjal) to around Year 33 (the start of BfA). The same page of Chronicle Vol. 3 about Battle for Undercity states that "full-scale" war was averted. This implies a non-full-scale war was in place. So, yeah, maybe it's that all of WoW has been the Fourth War. Which bodes interesting for whatever is about to happen because you could argue WoW just ended with us getting that title.

Could be like the cold war. Which we call a war but was actualy a bunch of wars fought by proxys.

We also have the napolionic war which you could say was actualy 2 wars pre and post napoleons imprisonment and escape.

So some times in history we have things called a war that are in reality more than 1 war.

[Madkat124]

I don't really know. The fact that blizzard is calling it the fourth war shows how out of touch they are with their own story telling. The first 3 wars were against the burning legion, not Alliance v Horde. Warcraft 3 was mostly about the scourge and Demons at least.

[Hitei]

Considering a ceasefire is during which one makes a treaty...

...you what?

[rhorle]

I don't really know. The fact that blizzard is calling it the fourth war shows how out of touch they are with their own story telling. The first 3 wars were against the burning legion, not Alliance v Horde. Warcraft 3 was mostly about the scourge and Demons at least.

No. It shows how out of touch fans are with the lore. We have first, second, and third wars defined in lore. No wars since have been called a fourth war up until now. This is the fourth war in the lore. It is also called the Blood War and the Battle for Azeroth. If you want to see everything the 1,2,3, and 4 war cover look them up on WoWpedia.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/First_War
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Second_War
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Third_War
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blood_War

[Jester Joe]

...you what?

Are you just going to insult others without looking into it yourself?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceasefire

Just scroll through the examples.

A majority of cases of a ceasefire led to...a treaty being discussed, which would be the end of the war.

Or in some cases, yes, a ceasefire would be temporary and resume the war after.

A ceasefire itself is NOT a treaty though.

[Aucald]

Wars tend to be termed in hindsight, not as they're actually being fought (with WW2 being an exception because so much of it felt more or less preordained by the ending of WW1). The Fourth War in this case is likely so-called because the intermittent faction conflict throughout WotLK, Cata, and MoP resolved less than nothing - and the historians of Azeroth seem to largely agree that the Blood War is essentially the inheritor of those earlier conflicts in the form of one massive conflict that's existed more or less since mid-WotLK. It started and stopped periodically, but never really drew to any form of formal close (even with MoP), as hostilities like Ashran and later Stormheim still flared up despite Garrosh being deposed. The close of the Blood War appears to be a final movement in this longer-term conflict, with both the Horde and Alliance finally suing for peace of some form as opposed to continued conflict.

[barackohmama]

Doesn't matter. It sounds good.

[Hitei]

Are you just going to insult others without looking into it yourself?

No, I was confused by your poor wording.

A ceasefire itself is NOT a treaty though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice

"An armistice is a formal agreement of warring parties to stop fighting. It is not necessarily the end of a war, since it may constitute only a cessation of hostilities while an attempt is made to negotiate a lasting peace. "

(hint: cessation of hostilities = ceasefire)

treaty
1a
: an agreement or arrangement made by negotiation:
(1): a contract in writing between two or more political authorities (such as states or sovereigns) formally signed by representatives duly authorized and usually ratified by the lawmaking authority of the state

Wowee, look at that. Two political authorities or states (read: Alliance, Horde) making a formal agreement for ceasefire (read: armistice) is a treaty.

[Malikath]

this should of happened instead of WoD or of just been the outcome of the SoO, since WC3 the factions have been heading towards a committed alliance due to the factors surrounding them, namely demons.

[Jester Joe]

No, I was confused by your poor wording.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice

"An armistice is a formal agreement of warring parties to stop fighting. It is not necessarily the end of a war, since it may constitute only a cessation of hostilities while an attempt is made to negotiate a lasting peace. "

(hint: cessation of hostilities = ceasefire)

treaty
1a
: an agreement or arrangement made by negotiation:
(1): a contract in writing between two or more political authorities (such as states or sovereigns) formally signed by representatives duly authorized and usually ratified by the lawmaking authority of the state

Wowee, look at that. Two political authorities or states (read: Alliance, Horde) making a formal agreement for ceasefire (read: armistice) is a treaty.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-di...nd-a-ceasefire

You know they're two different things, right?

A ceasefire is a temporary measure.

Which is NOT what a treaty is.