Too many rewards is not a problem - by Blizzard Dev

[Big Thanks]

Here is something i think the MMO-C community would be interested on.

A Blizzard dev gave a lecture on "Rewards in videogames" (2017) and the lessons he learned as a developer along the years.
I found it quite interesting.

He was asked the question:
Do you think players will always ask for more rewards? So at what point do you stop?

Answer:
Honestly...i dont know if there is a too much...

Full answer video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urijgWXLYck&t=56m19s

And before the question was asked he made it clear this was his BIGGEST lesson and also the one that took him the longest to realize:
-No design is perfect, we will always have problems to solve. It's better to solve the problem of players having everything they want than trying to solve the problems caused by players being frustrated with stingy reward systems.

full quote here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urijgWXLYck&t=46m50s

-------

And who am i to disagree?
I know this has been a point of discussion in MMO-C, so do you guys agree or disagree? And Thoughts?

[MoanaLisa]

I'll point out that the video link jumps to the very end of the lecture--it's Travis Day--skipping over all of the explanation as to why they do as they do. That might be a more interesting discussion than the usual stuff we see around here but you'll have to invest an hour to see all of it. It's from GDC 2017 where game developers get together to talk about what they do, why they do it and how. I've seen it once or twice. It's interesting stuff if you're into game design.

My own opinion: Most players don't play all the time. Over-rewarding the persistent to give a good feeling to those who play less frequently is a valid choice. Stingy reward systems don't especially encourage people to stay around and be aspirational despite what some think. It encourages people to leave.

[MoanaLisa]

Currently with so many things in the game that could be considered a "reward", I find that my problem is having the time to pursue them (so that could be called a problem of too many rewards) and I certainly never have "all I want"

I do think there can be too many categories or kinds of rewards. I would be all for more gold, more vendors, fewer drops and a more deterministic sort of reward system where you generally buy what you need. That would also bring some possibly interesting play with NPC markets or bazaars and shop fronts. Bring professions along with this so that players could also participate and you might have something interesting. Players that want to be primarily merchants could be fun.

Alas, that's a completely different game but elements of something like this could be made more prominent.

[Flurryfang]

Here is something i think the MMO-C community would be interested on.

A Blizzard dev gave a lecture on "Rewards in videogames" (2017) and the lessons he learned as a developer along the years.
I found it quite interesting.

He was asked the question:
Do you think players will always ask for more rewards? So at what point do you stop?

Answer:
Honestly...i dont know if there is a too much...

Full answer video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urijgWXLYck&t=56m19s

And before the question was asked he made it clear this was his BIGGEST lesson and also the one that took him the longest to realize:
-No design is perfect, we will always have problems to solve. It's better to solve the problem of players having everything they want than trying to solve the problems caused by players being frustrated with stingy reward systems.

full quote here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urijgWXLYck&t=46m50s

-------

And who am i to disagree?
I know this has been a point of discussion in MMO-C, so do you guys agree or disagree? And Thoughts?

A very interesting point of discussion really. Its nice to hear him actually talk about the dilemma of never-ending-problems. No matter what you do as a dev, there will always be a problem, that needs to be fixed, because often fixes creates more problems by themselves.

But to the main point at hand: I don't agree with him. His justification for his comment, is that players need constant rewards to keep playing, which is true, but the problem is that people don't have the same attitude for rewards day 1 and they have day 100. If you don't create some reward hierachy, players will slowly begin to not feel a reward....rewarding. If you can get rewards from everything, from many different ways, you will just keep doing the lowest margin content, that gives you a slow drip feed of rewards.
But in the end, what is the point of rewards? Some might say, that it is to keep you playing, and they are half right in that, but it is also to push you into some sorts of content. Content that will promote increased dedication and a deeper emotional dive into the game. You have to some point stop the rewards of "lower tiers" and point the player to the "higher tiers" to keep the flow of rewards coming. That way you can create more dedicated players, i believe.

But again, really interesting subject. I thought i had heard all of the GCD presentations by Blizz devs, but i had not seen this one

[ls-]

I mean, literally everything in the game rewards you in some way, it might be a crappy reward: few copper/silver/gold coins, some useless currency, etc or a good reward: good or even bis items, useful currencies, etc.

You're being showered w/ rewards from the get go. And it's been this ways since Vanilla, moreover, unlike its predecessor WoW did away w/ punishing players for failing to do something. You died? Whatever, you didn't lose any xp or items, you didn't delvl, etc. You're always safe and rewarded.

The only difference between now and then is that most items lost their "face". You no longer remember BiS items by name like you used to, if you cared about such things back then ofc, now rewards come from multiple sources and not just raiding, items also WF/TF and can get sockets, it's not feasible to keep all that stuff in your head. Nowadays you only remember names of REALLY exceptional and/or brokenly OP items, people still remember unstable arcanocrystal from withered jim, heck, I bet some people see that item in their nightmares And TBQH, I don't think that's that big of a deal. Stats > names.

However, I do think they do a fairly crappy job at splitting rewards in tiers. And, IMHO, it's a bit ridiculous that you can get really OP items by doing extremely mundane tasks thanks to TF, which you can't control in any way.

[Flurryfang]

I mean, literally everything in the game rewards you in some way, it might be a crappy reward: few copper/silver/gold coins, some useless currency, etc or a good reward: good or even bis items, useful currencies, etc.

You're being showered w/ rewards from the get go. And it's been this ways since Vanilla, moreover, unlike its predecessor WoW did away w/ punishing players for failing to do something. You died? Whatever, you didn't lose any xp or items, you didn't delvl, etc. You're always safe and rewarded.

The only difference between now and then is that most items lost their "face". You no longer remember BiS items by name like you used to, if you cared about such things back then ofc, now rewards come from multiple sources and not just raiding, items also WF/TF and can get sockets, it's not feasible to keep all that stuff in your head. Nowadays you only remember names of REALLY exceptional and/or brokenly OP items, people still remember unstable arcanocrystal from withered jim, heck, I bet some people see that item in their nightmares And TBQH, I don't think that's that big of a deal. Stats > names.

I think when Travis Day refers to rewards, its rewards, that have an impact on the behavier on the player, not the rewards gained in a constant dripfeed of just playing the game like drop gold and grey items Its been a long time since i have heard anybody mass killing mobs from the coppers they have in their pockets xD

But its an interesting point about rewards losing "face". I think it not comes not just from WF/TF, but also like things with removing tier sets, having legendary items and Azerite gear. I agree with you, that stats are more important than you knowing the gear piece name, but i think some game-soul is lost when you really only see numbers in the game instead of actual items with identity.

I wonder how one could return the idea of item "face"/identity in the current idea of WoW with its WF/TF?

[Eggroll]

I think a reward should reflect the effort that was necessary to earn this reward.

Collecting 10 piles of penguin poop should reward an epic? I don't think so.

[Nyel]

There is too much.

Take Retail vs. Classic - in Classic you're happy when you get a green or blue item from a quest. In retail you don't even bother with epics anymore unless they titan- or warforge. You throw away more epics in retail than you do with greens and blues in Classic.

[Jtbrig7390]

There is too much.

Take Retail vs. Classic - in Classic you're happy when you get a green or blue item from a quest. In retail you don't even bother with epics anymore unless they titan- or warforge. You throw away more epics in retail than you do with greens and blues in Classic.

That's cause Titanforge and Warforge has replaced the "feel" of the Blues/Epics of Classic and that's something people are not understanding.

Throwing away a Epic (or lesser quality) in retail is no different then throwing away a Gray or White in Classic. The scale has been moved and lots don't seem to understand that.

[MoanaLisa]

I wonder how one could return the idea of item "face"/identity in the current idea of WoW with its WF/TF?

Some variation of Legion's legendary system might point the way to a design. It wouldn't necessarily have to be legendary items but a more limited pool of items that could last an through a big chunk of an expansion with appropriate upgrades and the like along the way. If you create 700 pieces of gear for an expansion you're unlikely to get anything that stands out. "Starter" versions might be drops and/or vendor stuff. I dunno. The game has so much gear in it--historical and new--it's not a wonder that it's all sort of globbing together at this point. Not to mention that if you're changing gear all the time you're not going to get attached to anything. Accessibility with items not being disposable garbage is hard but they sort of got at that in Legion.

[Flurryfang]

People will probably use this to discuss the aspect of "too easy / too many epics", but I want to look at it very broadly:

To me it boils down to: Do you think people would do stuff without a reward? As in "Just playing is reward enough"? - and you could claim the game is showering you with rewards from your first quest on.

Every quest gives you some copper, later silver, items, gear, gold. Every mob you kill rewards you with loot...and if it is useless loot, you still get money out of it. Sometimes there is this small reward, like now killing a rare in Mechagon / Nazjatar gives gold, or manapearls or a schematic and then there is the far away reward of a mount and title that is not guaranteed for different reasons.

So what could change and would you like the change? Like: WQs don't offer a reward for completing them, other than rep. The reward is potentially in the Emissary box. Or in the Paragon Box even further off.

Then there might be rewards, and I still don't participate: To me, currently the 150 Azerite for a daily heroic is too small as a reward and I don't need the gear from it, so I am not doing it.

The mechanics of Expeditions annoy me, so the current rewards don't get me to do them..even with all the pets etc.

Currently with so many things in the game that could be considered a "reward", I find that my problem is having the time to pursue them (so that could be called a problem of too many rewards) and I certainly never have "all I want"

I think a game, where you did things just becasue you like it, is a bit of a dream scenario, from a game like WoW. I think it works for high intensity games like CoD or SC2, but in WoW, its too slow to keep your attention without a drive for rewards.

Like, i think that many people who play WoW, are very reward structured in their gameplay. When they play the game, they, as you pointed out, math out what they are going to do in the next hour or so. I do dailies for X rewards and then do all LFR for Y rewards. Its not because its directly the most fun content, but i have set out what i gain from it and decided that its where the most profit comes.

That said, i think there is a proberly way of designing an element of WoW, which is built upon not rewards, but the enjoyableness of doing the content repeatedly without raising a number or being given a chest after X runs.

[Nyel]

That's cause Titanforge and Warforge has replaced the "feel" of the Blues/Epics of Classic and that's something people are not understanding.

Throwing away a Epic (or lesser quality) in retail is no different then throwing away a Gray or White in Classic. The scale has been moved and lots don't seem to understand that.

Yeah that doesn't make any sense though when epic / purple is the highest gear quality you can achieve and you throw it away constantly because... it's crap. Gray and white items are the two worst categories in Classic (and all other WoW xpacs). Don't really see the argument, it clearly shows that epics have been devaluated too much and epics now are nothing more than former blue items with a shinier color. And forging only makes it worse.

[MoanaLisa]

There is too much.

Take Retail vs. Classic - in Classic you're happy when you get a green or blue item from a quest. In retail you don't even bother with epics anymore unless they titan- or warforge. You throw away more epics in retail than you do with greens and blues in Classic.

I think it's fair to point out that how rewards work while leveling and at end game are very different and what may work for one may not work at all for the other.

[Nyel]

I think it's fair to point out that how rewards work while leveling and at end game are very different and what may work for one may not work at all for the other.

Even at max level in Classic you're super happy about a good green or blue item from a quest. That's been the case in TBC and WotLK, too. Devaluating epics began in late Cataclysm/MoP. In early Cataclysm you started raiding with an almost all-blue heroic dungeon gear and it worked that way. Now epics have no worth anymore, they're just there and you get way too much of them from almost every task you do. It's highly problematic and the reward structure is one of the biggest downsides of BfA (and Legion) imho.

[Grimbold21]

I'll point out that the video link jumps to the very end of the lecture--it's Travis Day--skipping over all of the explanation as to why they do as they do. That might be a more interesting discussion than the usual stuff we see around here but you'll have to invest an hour to see all of it. It's from GDC 2017 where game developers get together to talk about what they do, why they do it and how. I've seen it once or twice. It's interesting stuff if you're into game design.

My own opinion: Most players don't play all the time. Over-rewarding the persistent to give a good feeling to those who play less frequently is a valid choice. Stingy reward systems don't especially encourage people to stay around and be aspirational despite what some think. It encourages people to leave.

Neither does the opposite. Having too much of everything and too fast and easily acquirable creates no meaningful connection between the player and rewards

[ls-]

But its an interesting point about rewards losing "face". I think it not comes not just from WF/TF, but also like things with removing tier sets, having legendary items and Azerite gear. I agree with you, that stats are more important than you knowing the gear piece name, but i think some game-soul is lost when you really only see numbers in the game instead of actual items with identity.

I wonder how one could return the idea of item "face"/identity in the current idea of WoW with its WF/TF?

This is inevitable and happens w/ every game that has a strong minmaxing community. That's what minmaxers do.

As for items with identity. Let's say, in ARPGs there's items w/ ability-altering properties that change the way your abilities behave. I mean, people don't really remember names of blue/yellow items in D3. It's pointless. They only know that they need to get any blue/yellow items w/ stats X, Y, and Z. They, however, do remember which item set they need to aim for and which legendaries to get because those have those ability-altering properties. But in WoW 99% of items are similar to D3's blue/yellow items, so obv no one remembers their names, such items are treated similarly in every single game. Unless ofc an item has a completely broken stat budget, then you get something like unstable arcanocrystal from Legion.

[Kumorii]

Anything that competes on a market with the design being the selling point works like marketing. Everyone hates marketing but the beauty of marketing is that it plays of off how people behave. Same goes for video game designs. Triple AAA developers have to tackle their games in the same manner. Which often leads to why players feel like developers don't listen to them. They are listening, but they are going with what you do and not with what you say.
That's what the phrase "you think you do but you don't" refers to. Many players think they want something, but when it's actually put into place it feels bad and they don't like it and often attribute it to how it was implemented rather than the idea itself being bad.
Players often knows what they want in the sense they know what feeling they want when they play a game, but they rarely know how to achieve that feeling in the design.

To his point I would argue that people aren't necessarily disliking the amount of rewards we are getting, but how easy it is to climb the item progression ladder and later have to rely on the very rare drops to get an upgrade too quickly. Players tend to attribute this to them showering us with rewards when in fact it has more to do with stat balancing of sockets, benthic and weights. If Blizzard reduce the amount of rewards, the problem would still be there...however now it would take even longer to climb that progression ladder until you're back to the frustrating part. It doesn't solve anything, it just delays it. You think you do, but you don't.

I'm trying to find a GDC talk from a guy that essentially talk about this phrase and how to take player critique and figure out what they actually want which players can't really convey themselves. It might sound like head up your own ass kind of talk but it's really interesting and it's true in most of aspects.

When players say "we get too much rewards" what designers tend to hear and, should in my opinion, isn't "Reduce amount of rewards" but rather itemisation is an issue and it's not rewarding. That's a problem that can be tackled in multiple ways while reducing the amount in this case doesn't solve anything beyond showing you listen. In the end people will still complain because the core issue wasn't addressed even if that was what the community wanted.

[Shakana]

The problem is not having many rewards, it's how you get them that is a problem.

[Flurryfang]

Currently with so many things in the game that could be considered a "reward", I find that my problem is having the time to pursue them (so that could be called a problem of too many rewards) and I certainly never have "all I want"

The idea of many rewards is proberly not a problem in itself, but as you said here, i think the problem starts really showing when you ask the player to choose between which content they want to do which have the same reward structure, in the limited time they have to play.

As have been shown many times, people often does not make a choice based upon what they think is fun, but what they find effecient. If you love, lets say, Expeditions, but see that doing WQs for 10 min is more rewarding, you will often find yourself doing the WQ eventhough you are actually having less fun with it.

That is the core problem of the overflow of rewards i think. At some point, if you want more and more rewards in your game, you need to create new content to supply those rewards and there is a limit of how many reward levels you can make. At some point, the game will have to ask the player choose between different content and then comes the fun-killing number crunching we naturally make as humans.

- - - Updated - - -

This is inevitable and happens w/ every game that has a strong minmaxing community. That's what minmaxers do.

As for items with identity. Let's say, in ARPGs there's items w/ ability-altering properties that change the way your abilities behave. I mean, people don't really remember names of blue/yellow items in D3. It's pointless. They only know that they need to get any blue/yellow items w/ stats X, Y, and Z. They, however, do remember which item set they need to aim for and which legendaries to get because those have those ability-altering properties. But in WoW 99% of items are similar to D3's blue/yellow items, so obv no one remembers their names, such item are treated similarly in every single game. Unless ofc an item has a completely broken stat budget, then you get something like unstable arcanocrystal from Legion.

I agree, that something like this will always happen for minmaxers, but for the average player, i think you can choose a specific game design, which promotes the idea of item identity. Just as Travis Day pointed out with D3 gear, if you focus down on unique fantasy design when it comes to gear, you can make players remember experiences based upon their interaction with the gear.
Like, im bad with names, but i still remember the fun interactions with my gold-gain items and Call of the Ancients build i played with in D3 more than 2 years ago.

When we talk about items, i think it is important to point out, that we are ofcourse not talking about blue/yellow items, as the devs themselves does not really give them identity, but instead the unique named items, that you get in-game. But when it comes to epic/orange items, i really think, if you wanted to, you could create a lot of identity in the items, if you made them have more uniqueness around them.

[Jtbrig7390]

Yeah that doesn't make any sense though when epic / purple is the highest gear quality you can achieve.

And now the highest you can achieve is Titan/Warforge....

The color of the text does not matter and it didn't matter in classic ether. There was Greens and Blues that was BIS over Epic's.