The myths about Classic that have fallen apart

[SirCowdog]

I like PoE, stop building a strawman and adress what i wrote.

I literally did. You claimed people were talking trash about the trininty but couldn't supply examples of MMOs that didn't use it. I gave you FOUR examples which you immediately just didn't like....for reasons.

PoE doesnt play anything like WoW in terms of gameplay system, how or why people play it. POE is not a game that works like WoW in everything but the combat system, like you pretend.

This is what I meant when I said "moving the goalposts". First it was just asking for a working alternative to the Trininty. Now it's "game that works like wow". OF COURSE no game is going to be as successful as wow. You hold up the most successful game as the standard, then shit on anything that doesn't do as well. That's not an argument that anyone can reasonably refute.

Now if you want to try to claim that wow is successful PRIMARILY because of the trinity, that's a different story, and an argument I don't think you'll win.

Yes you have it has no bearing because, see above.
Here are other rpgs that work without holy trinity:
Final Fantasy X
Dragon Quest
Phantasy Star
Monster Hunter
Fallout


They arent mmorpgs because they arent mmorpgs, what are you even on about? The devs themself doesnt call them mmorpgs. Who the fuck ever called diablo, which is the same as POE, an MMORPG?

Speaking of straw man.....

All of those games you listed are single player games. The ones I listed are all MMOs. Yes, even POE, because it has a massive community and economy which relies upon many players interacting, and yes it has grouping. POE is NOT just Diablo 3. The fact that you think it is means you don't have any understanding of it.

EVE online is an MMO...I don't even know how you could claim otherwise.

DDO is an MMO. It has a massive amount of content, guilds, communities, grouping, crafting, and virtually every other aspect that an MMO should have.

GW2 is an MMO. It has a massive amount of content, guilds, communities, grouping, crafting, and virtually every other aspect that an MMO should have.

None of the games you listed have any real multiplayer aspects to them except maybe Monster Hunter, or perhaps Phantasy Star Online(if that's even what you meant). You want to sound high and mighty, but you're really just talking directly out of your ass because you can't admit that you were wrong. Either that, or you simply don't have the context to understand the games I'm using as examples.

So what are you trying to say here? You want a WoW moba or...? If games opperate completly differnt on goals and systems they are other genres.

/facepalm

NO! FFS man...the point being argued is whether other games can do an MMORPG without the Trinity. You wanted examples; I gave them.

I said you cant name a other mmorpg that works well without holy trinity. You cant refute how a mmorpg without a holy trinity system, like gw2, cant produce encounters that are as fun as wow.
No goalpoast has been moved.
You stating GW2 just adds to my argument,

Now you're just ignoring reality. Are you going to tell me that EVE online, a PVP MMO that's been around LONGER than wow, doesn't work well without the trinity?

Are you going to stick your head in the sand and say that DDO, another game that's successfully maintained a decent fanbase with regular updates and expansions for 13 years "doesn't work well".

And even if you don't like GW2, it is one more example of an MMO that is still alive in the face of WoW.


The problem is that you DID move the goalposts. You moved the bar from "games that don't use the trinity" to "games that don't use the trinity and yet magically somehow have the same success and popularity as wow".

We're done here. I've punched holes in your argument so wide a mack truck could drive through it. You can like whatever style of game you want, but when you try to deny that other games exist in the genre that don't use the trinity, you just make yourself look stupid.

Uhg...why did I even write this. Fucking waste of time.

[Teddyfish]

In Retail, bring any tank you want because it will play exactly the same way as any other tank (naming the abilities differently doesn't change that the heal is a heal)

I don't even know where to start, for one seperate tank classes are vastly different to each other in retail compared to vanilla considering there's only really one tank class in vanilla.
And even including Prot Pala a Bears they still do.
And your example "a heal is still a heal", does this mean all healer classes in Classic are the same then?????

If you have no intention of playing retail that's your choice, but don't throwing out statements like this makes it clear you have no idea what your on about.

If you want veried class mechanics that feel and play different to each other then try out retails tanks in mythic+.

[Coldfrostzero]

Out of curiosity, what does the "Trinity" mean to you?

The "Trinity" isn't my definition. It's been Blizzard's standard for the 3 roles of Tank, Healer, and DPS. They have never stated that CC was a role to fill. If that had ever been the case, every spec that wasn't a tank or healer would have a CC. Shamans didn't get a CC until Wrath and Warriors have never had a CC. Priest and Druid CC were extremely limited at first.

The closest they have ever blurred these lines is when DKs could tank as any spec, Shockadin, Druid affinities (though they don't allow you to switch roles), and tiny bit with a few Holy Paladin talents currently (they are just burst mainly). I think a support role would breathe some life into the game, but it'd have to be good enough to make you want to bring them with in a party/raid, but not so good that you have to have them to succeed. This would make them either really good or really bad in Mythic+ and Mythic raids. Support just doesn't have a great spot in WoW.

Edit: read more of your discussion after the question was asked.

If you are playing warrior and fight yellow or orange mobs you are doing it wrong. My wife makes me REEE so hard when she tries to fight level 46 mobs on her level 43 rogue and complains that she needs help.

I was fighting mobs that were literally the exact same level and was dying because of how much I was missing (2H, not DW). At level 13 and onward, I have just done dungeons as that is generally easier for a warrior since you have a healer support. At about 41, I was able to barely solo level 44 and 45 mobs in Feralas. I wouldn't recommend it, but it is doable with the right amount of luck and spamming shield block over and over and over again until your target dies.

[TJ]

Honestly, adding pvp to wow was a mistake from the beginning, especially when trying to use existing pve abilities and dynamics. It has caused more problems with gearing and class balance than everything else in the game combined.

But that's a completely different can of worms we should leave for another thread.

Not really, it just requires constant tuning and adjustments (as does PvE), which is something Blizzard sucks at as they take sometimes months to sort out a simple issue.

The main improvement they've done over the years (which should've been implemented from the start) is the separation of PvE and PvE in terms of abilities and possibly talents. This allows them to nerf an ability for just PvP or PvE use and have the other unaffected. Both have hindered the other in this way for many years and a well performing class could suffer for something they are not op at, and a player's class could be nerfed for something they don't even participate in.

[SirCowdog]

The main improvement they've done over the years (which should've been implemented from the start) is the separation of PvE and PvE in terms of abilities and possibly talents. This allows them to nerf an ability for just PvP or PvE use and have the other unaffected. Both have hindered the other in this way for many years and a well performing class could suffer for something they are not op at, and a player's class could be nerfed for something they don't even participate in.

Agreed!

There are two completely different dynamics and intents for abilities in WoW:

In PVE you have a dynamic designed for groups of 5-25 players beating on NPC enemies that, by necessity, have a massively inflated HP pool in order to compensate for their poor AI. Damaging abilities are designed to create sustained DPS in order to bring this massive pool of HP down. Defensive abilities are designed to move players out of predictable hits, or allow player character tanks to survive those same predictable hits.

In PVP you have a dynamic designed for a groups of three human players to face off against another group of three players. Hitpoint pools are smaller, and damage often comes in massive, unpredictable spikes that have to be reacted to on the fly.

Trying to give a single player character abilities that are meant to be used in both environments is a balancing nightmare that should never have been attempted, IMO.

- - - Updated - - -

You claiming what its an mmo and what isnt over the actual devs statments that developed the game says everything about your points

If that's the best you've got, you're just sticking your head in the sand. Here is some evidence to make you look stupid:

EVE online(directly from the wiki): "Eve Online is a space-based, persistent world massively multiplayer online role-playing game developed and published by CCP Games."
EVE Online(directly from the game website scroll down): "EVE Online is a community-driven spaceship MMO"

DDO(from the wiki): "Dungeons & Dragons Online is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game developed by Turbine"
DDO(from their facebook page): "Free to Play Dungeons & Dragons MMORPG"

GW2(from the wiki): "Guild Wars 2 is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game developed by ArenaNet and published by NCSOFT."
From the ArenaNet page describing GW2: "Explore a vast, ever-changing persistent world.
From the GW2 website: "Guild Wars 2 is an online role-playing game..."

POE wiki: "Path of Exile is a free-to-play action role-playing video game developed and published by Grinding Gear Games."
POE website: "Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. It is designed around a strong online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races."



I'll grant that POE is in something of a grey area, since it's been an ongoing argument across many mediums whether or not games of that type actually constitute a "MMORPG", despite the fact that it's clearly an RPG, Online, Massive, and multiplayer.

You're right, this does say everything about my points: That they're grounded in factual, objective information instead of spouting off bullshit like you. Good day, sir.

[schwank05]

Doing a lot of these old quests, I just don't remember so many of them having complete shit drop rates for the quest items...

I do, but I have also found that drop rates in the morning seem to be 1000 times better than at peak hours. Probably just coincidence, but still what I have found.

[Coldfrostzero]

I do, but I have also found that drop rates in the morning seem to be 1000 times better than at peak hours. Probably just coincidence, but still what I have found.

I only play at peak times. On two separate characters, doing the Zevhra hoof and Raptor head quest from the Crossroads I had a 100% drop rate on those items. Which are 2 of the 3 notorious low drop rate quest items. Take that how you will /shrug

[xuros]

I only play at peak times. On two separate characters, doing the Zevhra hoof and Raptor head quest from the Crossroads I had a 100% drop rate on those items. Which are 2 of the 3 notorious low drop rate quest items. Take that how you will /shrug

OMFG I can't even recall how many of those fucking Zehvra I killed that had ZERO hooves! Fuckers must have been walking around on their nubs or something. (lol /sigh) Oh and Centaurs with no ears in Desolace!

[SirCowdog]

I do, but I have also found that drop rates in the morning seem to be 1000 times better than at peak hours. Probably just coincidence, but still what I have found.

There was a theory back in original Vannila days that drop rates were refulated globally across each server. Meaning that the drop rates for everything were locked, and not specific to each kill. More people doing the same content, the lower the drops would be for each person since they were all drawing from the same "pool".

Don't think it was ever proven. It's almost certainly just the laws of probability being weird. Random is random, after all.

[Specialka]

Agreed!

There are two completely different dynamics and intents for abilities in WoW:

In PVE you have a dynamic designed for groups of 5-25 players beating on NPC enemies that, by necessity, have a massively inflated HP pool in order to compensate for their poor AI. Damaging abilities are designed to create sustained DPS in order to bring this massive pool of HP down. Defensive abilities are designed to move players out of predictable hits, or allow player character tanks to survive those same predictable hits.

In PVP you have a dynamic designed for a groups of three human players to face off against another group of three players. Hitpoint pools are smaller, and damage often comes in massive, unpredictable spikes that have to be reacted to on the fly.

Trying to give a single player character abilities that are meant to be used in both environments is a balancing nightmare that should never have been attempted, IMO.

- - - Updated - - -



If that's the best you've got, you're just sticking your head in the sand. Here is some evidence to make you look stupid:

EVE online(directly from the wiki): "Eve Online is a space-based, persistent world massively multiplayer online role-playing game developed and published by CCP Games."
EVE Online(directly from the game website scroll down): "EVE Online is a community-driven spaceship MMO"

DDO(from the wiki): "Dungeons & Dragons Online is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game developed by Turbine"
DDO(from their facebook page): "Free to Play Dungeons & Dragons MMORPG"

GW2(from the wiki): "Guild Wars 2 is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game developed by ArenaNet and published by NCSOFT."
From the ArenaNet page describing GW2: "Explore a vast, ever-changing persistent world.
From the GW2 website: "Guild Wars 2 is an online role-playing game..."

POE wiki: "Path of Exile is a free-to-play action role-playing video game developed and published by Grinding Gear Games."
POE website: "Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. It is designed around a strong online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races."



I'll grant that POE is in something of a grey area, since it's been an ongoing argument across many mediums whether or not games of that type actually constitute a "MMORPG", despite the fact that it's clearly an RPG, Online, Massive, and multiplayer.

You're right, this does say everything about my points: That they're grounded in factual, objective information instead of spouting off bullshit like you. Good day, sir.

On all those games, only DDO and GW2 are actual MMoRpgs.
EVE is an MMO obviously but I would not qualify it as RPG even if you can gain xp and level in it.
POE is a hack and slash with simple fights.

I do not know DDO but in GW2, boss fights are simple since most dmg is telegraph on the ground. You can't have raid damage like in wow since you lack proper healers.

[SirCowdog]

On all those games, only DDO and GW2 are actual MMoRpgs.
EVE is an MMO obviously but I would not qualify it as RPG even if you can gain xp and level in it.
POE is a hack and slash with simple fights.

I do not know DDO but in GW2, boss fights are simple since most dmg is telegraph on the ground. You can't have raid damage like in wow since you lack proper healers.

I think a lot of people tend to apply their own highly specific and exclusionary terms to MMORPG. What does MMORPG stand for?

Massive.
Multiplayer.
Online.
Roleplaying.
Game.

EVE is massive, multiplayer, online, and a game. If you think people don't play roles in that game, you need to expand your understanding of what a role is. This isn't the same thing as just a simple class that's defined by a game, nor is it the traditional "Tank/Heal/DPS" role that sparked this discussion. In EVE online you can play the role of miner, a merchant, a mercenary, a businessman, an explorer, a shipper, a pirate, a gambler, etc, etc, etc.

I don't really think there's a legitimate argument that people don't play roles in EVE online. Although if you have one, I'd be open to discuss it.

As for POE, again: It's massive, both in terms of how many people play it, and how large the world, maps, and skill system is. It's got multiple players, in terms of its community, economy, and also with the possibility of grouping. It's online. It's clearly a game. You can play the role of a spellcaster, a melee fighter, or a group support, among others. You can play the role of a "mortal" who dies once and can't respawn infinitely. There are also implied roles based on the skilltrees immediately available to each starting character, and specifically defined by starting class based on the ascendancy system.

Even if we look at the wiki definition of an MMO, POE still qualifies. The only time it doesn't is when people start applying additional limitation on the definition to fit their own personal view of what an MMO is.

But this is getting off into a tangent from the original point of contention: Can an MMORPG be done without using the holy trinity? Even if we disqualify POE, there are still 3 other examples that I provided which are all successful in their own right. As successful as WoW? No, of course not. No MMORPG is as successful as WoW. But if someone tried to claim that WoW is successful BECAUSE of the trinity I'd call them out on it. Since there are many other larger factors which came together to bring wow to the success it enjoys. I would even argue that WoW could have been just as successful if it used a different system than Tank/Heal/DPS due to its established fanbase from the RTS series, and the overall lore and setting.

[Charge me Doctor]

On all those games, only DDO and GW2 are actual MMoRpgs.

You can disagree with a definition, but you'll still be wrong. It's like saying that you disagree with fire being hot

[Butser]

...

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

But I have to say I experience the game very differently.

1. Can't really respond to this since I haven't raided yet.. I'm still on my journey (34 & 32 now)

2. Well some talents are simply increase damage by 1%. Especially the first few have something like increase max mana by 1%. But there are also talents that made me really happy when I could take them. Simple examples are the following:
- Ghost wolf cast time reduction
- Two handed axes/maces
- Cat form movement speed
- Flurry(enhancement)

other talents that increase your damage with quite a bit still feels great. I don't know why but, clicking on the talent gives me a great feeling. Feels like I got something for my level up. In retail you probably get the increase dmg automatically but it doesn't feel like a reward.

What I really do love is the going to a capitol city to learn some skills, it gives me a break from questing/farming and I can do some other stuff like leveling my profession, mail stuff to my other characters or simply take a break to chill a bit IRL.

3. I still play it on my own pace, I'm not in a hurry to get to 60 for the end game content. There isn't even much end game content since all the battlegrounds and world PvP rewards aren't in yet. Also there are only a few raids you can do now. It's not a race for me and I just casually do some quests daily. I don't care if I'm leveling slow because I'm inefficient. It's about the fun I have. In the end this game is made to have fun, not to be the first lvl 60 and showing the world how great you are for being the first...

4. You CAN be more social in Classic. I have the feeling that it's needed to communicate with other players because of the group quests. Those aren't in retail anymore,. Or when they are, they are too easy that you can simply solo them because you have a wide package of skills that can save your ass or burst them down. With these group quests you get stimulated to search for other players. But in the end it's up to you if you want to talk or not. Sometimes I like to have a chat and sometimes I just say a simple hello, thanks and goodbye.

5. I haven't experienced anything of this. I can heal/dps with my shaman (both roles are fine, I haven't be declined/ignored because I'm a enhancement shaman). On my druid I mostly tank so I don't have issues finding a group.

6. Well holy grail is a big word, but they are fun and for my shaman they aren't skippable. The totem quests are a must, since you can't summon any totems without them. For my druid they are skippable, but I really liked to do them, especially aquatic form. The dispell poison quest is good but not a must. Can't speak for other classes. Warrior does get a great axe and gets the quest quite early, but thats just a design error I think. You shouldn't be able to get a high reward on low level. If you have a friend he can boost you through it and you get an insane axe on a low level.

7.I don't think the questing is tedious, but then again I only play max 4 hours a day and sometimes I got some stuff IRL to skip a day. I actually have 2 characters at 30+ and 1 at 19. I actually want to start another one with a friend that's going to start soon. I know 1 thing, playing together with a friend is 10 times more fun. But hey it's a MMO for a reason. Playing together is more fun.

[Esotaric]

there's no titanforging in classic wow. that itself trumps retail wow in every way shape or form

[d00mh4cker]

Watching a mage play classic makes the game look like a bad meme.

[MidnyteTV]

there's no titanforging in classic wow. that itself trumps retail wow in every way shape or form

Titanforging will forever be a crutch bad players hang onto to justify the fact that they suck at the game and other people getting a slightly better piece of gear is the end of the world.

[rohoz]

Titanforging will forever be a crutch bad players hang onto to justify the fact that they suck at the game and other people getting a slightly better piece of gear is the end of the world.

Titanforged bad piece <<< base level with good (not perfect) stats almost always.

Titanforged ok piece <<< base level with perfect stats almost always

Titanforged good piece = base level with good stats.


and even if you get a good piece, it's a 2% upgrade at best, i.e, negligible difference. I non-ironically love the system cus it only really matters for weapons that can't roll past +10 (weekly chest counts as x+10 so x+20 is possible tho)

[Battlebeard]

You are right on number 1, that is pretty much it.

I think completely objectively that these talents are amazing and so much better than anything we have in retail.

And who says classic was about the journey? For 15 years I've always said the game begins at max level. Always have, always will.

[Mardux]

Titanforging will forever be a crutch bad players hang onto to justify the fact that they suck at the game and other people getting a slightly better piece of gear is the end of the world.

So TF is pretty similar to classic then. 14-15 year old raids that don’t even need you to be level capped to clear being a crutch for those who are bad at current wow.

[Specialka]

I think a lot of people tend to apply their own highly specific and exclusionary terms to MMORPG. What does MMORPG stand for?

Massive.
Multiplayer.
Online.
Roleplaying.
Game.

EVE is massive, multiplayer, online, and a game. If you think people don't play roles in that game, you need to expand your understanding of what a role is. This isn't the same thing as just a simple class that's defined by a game, nor is it the traditional "Tank/Heal/DPS" role that sparked this discussion. In EVE online you can play the role of miner, a merchant, a mercenary, a businessman, an explorer, a shipper, a pirate, a gambler, etc, etc, etc.

I don't really think there's a legitimate argument that people don't play roles in EVE online. Although if you have one, I'd be open to discuss it.

As for POE, again: It's massive, both in terms of how many people play it, and how large the world, maps, and skill system is. It's got multiple players, in terms of its community, economy, and also with the possibility of grouping. It's online. It's clearly a game. You can play the role of a spellcaster, a melee fighter, or a group support, among others. You can play the role of a "mortal" who dies once and can't respawn infinitely. There are also implied roles based on the skilltrees immediately available to each starting character, and specifically defined by starting class based on the ascendancy system.

Even if we look at the wiki definition of an MMO, POE still qualifies. The only time it doesn't is when people start applying additional limitation on the definition to fit their own personal view of what an MMO is.

But this is getting off into a tangent from the original point of contention: Can an MMORPG be done without using the holy trinity? Even if we disqualify POE, there are still 3 other examples that I provided which are all successful in their own right. As successful as WoW? No, of course not. No MMORPG is as successful as WoW. But if someone tried to claim that WoW is successful BECAUSE of the trinity I'd call them out on it. Since there are many other larger factors which came together to bring wow to the success it enjoys. I would even argue that WoW could have been just as successful if it used a different system than Tank/Heal/DPS due to its established fanbase from the RTS series, and the overall lore and setting.

According to your logic, tons of games are mmorpgs. Even game like Elite: Dangerous. You can play a role as well in it. See how stupid it is?