Classic vs. Retail - The Cars analogy

[Will]

He's not wrong though @Super. The Classic forum is often filled with comparisons to Retail. Usually to mock or belittle it, or pomp about how superior Classic is. Are we that insecure that we need to justify the merits of Classic all the time?

[Jotaux]

So no change then or do you consider the C'thun doorway of death to be a minor bug.

I didn't do that boss when it was current so I don't even know what that means.

[Eapoe]

My guild chat was recently discussing classic vs. retail (this was in classic btw) and the guild has a big mix of players who played for various times throughout WoW's history, including those who still play retail.

One guy in chat made a simple statement about retail that caught my eye: "They streamlined the soul out of the game."

That one statement jumped out at me and out of nowhere made me remember the Pixar movie Cars. The entire movie involves this hip racecar guy getting trapped in this really small rural town and they explain the history of the town and one of the characters tells a story about how the country road that went through the town died when they built a nearby highway.

And it sort of reminded me of the lifestyle of WoW.

Before mega-highways if you traveled cross country people often traveled a lot of backroads, a lot of small country roads. These roads were often quirky. They weren't uniform, they were sometimes narrow, bumpy, etc. They were also not laid out very efficiently. You drove a ton of extra miles on your journey. But, the roads took you to a lot of interesting places. Small little rural towns where you met people you otherwise would have never met, you got to see amazing scenery you otherwise wouldn't, etc. The journey was more interesting. This in a nutshell is Classic WoW.



Modern day retail WoW is a lot more like an interstate highway. Extremely uniform design, usually very well maintained, extreme efficiency in the layout of the system, designed to get you from point A to point B as fast as possible. You save the most time and gas this way. Sounds great, but as someone who has driven a ton on highways, what you gain in "efficiency" you pay for in monotony. The "journey" is completely irrelevant in this system. Only getting you transported to the destination as reliably and efficiently as possible. This is Retail WoW in a nutshell.



I think BOTH systems have their obvious pros and I'm glad now people have the option to choose which they prefer.

Except your analogy glosses over the fact that while streamlined, easy going highways exist, there are still the options to get off and explore the country and backroads. You can still see the sights and see what’s off the well trodden path. So, while the highways exist that give you a shortened trip and the convenience of the pacing and smoothness, you still have all the exit ramps that lead to all the same places that still exist if you so choose.
The backroads only part of your analogy shows the flaw of the topic as you are forced to go on a long route with falling apart, broken roads and detours. You have no choice than to take a specific route, a certain way, and at a pace not made up by you for it.
This is one of the problems with Classic vs Retail. Die hard Classic supporters love to point out what Retail lacks and Classic has, such as community and exploration and story. Never one realizing that all of that still exists in Retail. Community is a choice, and Classic players abandoned that choice when Blizzard gave them streamlined options. Just a short example, people can’t argue things like LFR killed the community when the community decided to stop talking. The option to talk and be friendly and the blacklisting, and all the things people say, is still there. In fact, it would still exist if people had simply just not stopped talking.

[shadowmatrix]

I didn't do that boss when it was current so I don't even know what that means.

C'thun would shoot at players when they entered the doorway before they even entered combat, oh yeah the beam he shot would chain to others if they were too close. Picture someone not paying attention and half the raid getting KOed. Raid teams had to send someone ahead to bait it out then run in while it was on cooldown if my information is correct.

Disclaimer: I didn't play back then and can only go by word of mouth and tons of salty complaining.

[Zaqwert]

People who point out that many things that were available in classic are still available in retail if you seek them out or glossing over one very important fact. Most people will seek the path of least resistance to anything. It's human nature that if you're given an easy out most people will take it.

Building lots of choices in your game seems like a good idea and it is in most cases. Especially in single player games where what you choose to do has no impact on anyone else.

However in an MMO the way people choose to play the game has a very strong impact on other people playing the game.

In an MMO, as a game developer understanding that the choices you give your individual players will have a large consequence on the world as a whole is something that's been lost.

Fundamentally I think many of the things that are optional in retail should have never been made optional in an MMO in the first place.

Very few people are going to travel the world on foot if they can just hit a button to immediately go there. It's human nature.

Forcing people (yes I used the word force) to do it will lead to an entirely different game ecosphere.

As a game developer understanding that the choices you give your player are important but what's equally important is not presenting them with a choice that will be detrimental to the overall experience. Particularly in an MMO.

[Annelie]

I mean you also clear the hardest content possible within a week of hitting 60, as will be the case everytime a patch comes out with the next raid with the exception of Naxx.

How long does it take to clear the first raid in BfA after hitting 120? I bet you dont even have to wait a full day.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Outstanding analogy.

Very easy to see analogy's in retail to the highway:
- EZPASS, Pay to Win
- POV Lane, Instant queues
- More Accidents, Shitty class design
- More Pot Holes, band-aids & hotfixes 24/7
- Higher Speeds, instant gratification
- Tons of Car Manufactures, Free loot

Look how beautify the old road is, this is what blizzard needs to get back to.
A true RPGMMO that takes TIME. Raiders in Classic will be hitting MC for an entire year. Unlike retail where the raid tier ends within 1 month and you're fully geared.

Every single Pothole in Classic will be there forever.

[Biomega]

How long does it take to clear the first raid in BfA after hitting 120? I bet you dont even have to wait a full day.

Can't really compare the two because Classic only has one difficulty. Any raid that comes out there will be cleared nearly instantly. So will normal-mode raids on Retail, but Retail also has heroic (which regularly takes more than the first day to clear), and of course mythic (which takes the best guilds in the entire world 1-2 weeks to clear, and most other people literal months).

As for OP's analogy, sure, it works to an extent; but as someone already pointed out, they're not straight replacements. Just because we have cars doesn't mean horses don't exist anymore, for example - sure most people choose to no longer use them for transportation, but the people who really want to still can.

[Relapses]

It's why I liked TBC. It was a middle-ground. You could jump directly to content when in a focused frame of mind, and meander at other times, and no choice felt wrong.

Unless the content you wanted to jump into was progression raiding... less than 1% of the player population got to see SWP. Attunements and general lack of people wanting to do old content made it nearly impossible to get into endgame raiding unless: a.) a guild thought you were worth getting attuned or b.) you literally paid a guild to carry you. Then you add in shit like feeder guilds and it just makes things more complicated. TBC was not a good time to be a raider.

[Salty Maud]

Classic is like slot car racing, but the cars are broken to a varying degree and the track is also fucked up and will throw you off the track at every other turn if you try to go at any reasonable speed. You can manage the quirks, but it's a grating experience, and the simplicity of slot car racing can only keep you entertained for so long.

[chrisnumbers]

Why are some Classic players so completely obsessed with Retail in almost every way? Its such a strange thing.

When I play Classic I see literally 0 people talk about retail. It's pretty great.

[arkanon]

When I play Classic I see literally 0 people talk about retail. It's pretty great.

When I play classic, it is one of the most if not the most common topic in all public channels. Maybe you are on a dead realm? Sounds blissful

[arkanon]

Mmoc mods "game vs game threads are not allowed "

*Creates thread called game vs game*

Mmoc mods "i'll allow it".

[chrisnumbers]

When I play classic, it is one of the most if not the most common topic in all public channels. Maybe you are on a dead realm? Sounds blissful

Nope it's Full during peak hours.

[arkanon]

Nope it's Full during peak hours.

Well like others have said here, other than the endless grp spam, it's really all anyone talks about, at least on the two servers I play on. I'm not sure why you would try and convince other classic players this doesn't happen.......kinda like farting in a lift, then blaming the only other person in there.

[Super Black Man of Steal]

Dude made an actual point and you come out of nowhere saying, "nu uh you are!" and you sit here thinking that is an actual reply to anything.

The classic forums (and players in general) all too often seem not only eager, but actively looking for instances that they can shit on 'retail' because reasons.

Have you nothing to say to that point?

I already said what I have to say. I made the observation that he seems to be very obsessed with classic players, in the same way he thinks classic players are obsessed with retail. I don't see where the insult is, unless you acknowledge that he equally insulted classic players. Both he and you seem awkwardly aggressive towards me right now.

[cface]

When I play classic, it is one of the most if not the most common topic in all public channels. Maybe you are on a dead realm? Sounds blissful

What server do you play on then? I'm on zandalar (eu) which is high/full, and haven't seen a single discussion about retail at all, except the unusual "retailer" insult which I honestly don't get, and most just scrolls past without remark.

[Bumboclaat]

I would like to add, if you get a flat (get stuck) on a highway, almost everyone zips by without a care to assist you. (retail)

If you get a flat on old side roads, someone would more likely stop for you, but you're just as likely to just get murdered. (classic)

[Nightstalker]

Outstanding analogy.

Very easy to see analogy's in retail to the highway:
- EZPASS, Pay to Win
- POV Lane, Instant queues
- More Accidents, Shitty class design
- More Pot Holes, band-aids & hotfixes 24/7
- Higher Speeds, instant gratification
- Tons of Car Manufactures, Free loot

Look how beautify the old road is, this is what blizzard needs to get back to.
A true RPGMMO that takes TIME. Raiders in Classic will be hitting MC for an entire year. Unlike retail where the raid tier ends within 1 month and you're fully geared.

Mental Gymnastics to the rescue!!

[Gaidax]

Ah, the classic vs retail thread of the day.

The best thing that came out of Classic is that we finally had these herpa-derps clamoring how Vanilla raiding was so hardcore shut down - some good memes came out of that one. That and all the retarded topics about how paladin DPS in Vanilla was not dogshit.