Blizzard punishing you for stepping out of line - everytime

[Big Thanks]

I expect you to take a look at how it affects people other than yourself. Blizzard nerfed it because it caused major problems and led to plenty of pointless deaths, not because the community came up with it.

Point is, it wasn't successfull.

Blizzard did not "nerf", they did ZERO math to tune it.
They either REMOVED, REWORKED, or 70% nerfed.

70% nerf = removal

Entire playstyles were lost in the process. All im asking is a simple tune...and not "removal"

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Others already answered this, your personal fun to an abusive mechanic, ruins the fun of everyone that isnt using it.

I already told you, its the same logic with hackers in any other game, especially FPS.

"I got headshotted, that guy is hacking 100%, i am gonna turn my aimbot on to show him", proceeds to ruin the game for the rest, but he had his fun.

Then tune them! Not "remove" them! Is it too much to ask for?

[Alvito]

Its more about the most recent azerite traits.

Imbalance? Says Blizzard because we stepped out of the line of their vision on how to play the game.
We must play exactly how they want.

RPG's are known for giving the ability to players to "spread their wings"...except blizzard cuts our wings everytime.

Yeah you have to play within their boundaries. This isn't a new concept and should't surprise anybody. They want things to work a certain way if they don't or people get them to work another they alter it back to it's intended path. Rarely they will see the new way things are being done and just go with it as long as it doesn't create balance issues. RPGs are often single player game so you can get away with whatever wacky stuff you want, when you dip into the multi player part you lose that ability if you want to play a good game.

[Big Thanks]

You're creating a conspiracy out of nothing, Blizzard isn't basing their buffs and nerfs on whether it's "community created" or not, they're just correcting imbalances. The way Blizzard does their nerfing is they look at the talents which are contributing most to the excessive damage, and nerfing those talents. So if the community found a specific talent which provides a different rotation that deals more damage, and it pushes that class excessively above others, of course Blizzard is going to nerf that talent.

Also, pro tip, EVERY playstyle is created by the community, Blizzard only steps in when there's a clear problem(Like Deadshot being incredibly overpowered, regardless of it being "fun" to use or not.)

Like i said to Huth, Blizzard did not "tune" this playstyles. They were removed, reworked or 70% nerfed...which is the same as removal, a 70% nerf...might aswell be 90%.
Entire playstyles were lost.
Thats all im saying, instead of "removing" them...tune them, and dont make we lose more playstyles.

[Syegfryed]

i only wished the traits could be free to chose, able to chose all of the existing trait sin that roll,would be waay more fun create some nice combos.

[Frozenbro]

Like i said to Huth, Blizzard did not "tune" this playstyles. They were removed, reworked or 70% nerfed...which is the same as removal, a 70% nerf...might aswell be 90%.
Entire playstyles were lost.
Thats all im saying, instead of "removing" them...tune them, and dont make we lose more playstyles.

What talents were removed? unbound chaos? it was removed cause you cant have a ping dependant trait like this one, if you actually knew this you wouldnt use it as example, deadshot and snake eyes are still there, just nerfed to bring them in line, they nerfed it too much for your taste since you wanted them to continue being the go-to build as in OP build, sooooo you are a fotm player using arguments to fit his narrative then?

[nekobaka]

Still, it’s baffling that specs that worked in the past expansions and are nearly universally enjoyed are changed so often and dramatically.

And then you get the cases of a mechanic in one spec being praised for being different that then has to be shoved into the other specs. So players who didnt like that mechanic of that spec now gets the spec they enjoy changed and mechanic they dont enjoy forced on them.

Over the years the leads have said that constant revamps are bad and yet keep doing it.

[Big Thanks]

What talents were removed? unbound chaos? it was removed cause you cant have a ping dependant trait like this one, if you actually knew this you wouldnt use it as example, deadshot and snake eyes are still there, just nerfed to bring them in line, they nerfed it too much for your taste since you wanted them to continue being the go-to build as in OP build, sooooo you are a fotm player using arguments to fit his narrative then?

Snake eyes was reworked to the point that killed the entire playstyle. Forget the numbers. The playstyle died with the rework.
You are probably unfamiliar with the old playstyle.

Deadshot could still be a "burst" tool. A random one at that.
Fish for the buffs...fish for the buff...NOW...Burst
The burst part was removed. Playstyle died

Frozenbro, im giving value to different playstyles...i dont care about the numbers.
I care when a new playstyle dies.

[dcc626]

And then you get the cases of a mechanic in one spec being praised for being different that then has to be shoved into the other specs. So players who didnt like that mechanic of that spec now gets the spec they enjoy changed and mechanic they dont enjoy forced on them.

Over the years the leads have said that constant revamps are bad and yet keep doing it.

part of the problem with stacking abilities on abilities is that is makes new design space smaller and smaller. balancing 36 specs is already badsically impossible and if they didnt remove or otherwise nerf existing traits/specs/systems they would likely never add anything neat or meaningful EVER.

like it or hate it, its not going to change.

[Nefarious Tea]

No no no, not the case.
I collected every single azerite trait pre nerf and tested them myself.
I like to see stuff with my own eyes.

I was a happy collector monkey...and tested everything on my own.

The only exception was Deadshot which i learned outside the game.

There is value in playstyle created by the playerbase...but they are usually removed by Blizzard.

You know what? I was being a bit of a dick and you just rationally answered. I'm impressed

I admit I was wrong and also more than a little surprised that you put the effort in to actually test things. Generally I play around with everything to see what feels interesting/looks cool/is fun... and then I see whether it's actually good by looking it up. I end up disappointed more than I like lol

To actually engage in argument: I think the real issue however has less to do with blizzard intentionally nerfing cool interactions or builds. That's a side effect of the real problem, which is that blizzard is utterly unwilling to buff underperforming specs unless they are egregiously behind; instead Blizzard would rather nerf the high end to bring specs down to the lowest common denominator than bring the bottom up to excellence. In the specific case of Unbound Chaos - and this may just be my bitter world-weariness speaking - but I think the issue was more that it was so divisive in the community. People argued and bitched one way or the other constantly, and so Blizzard just acted like a condescending parent: taking the toy away so we can't fight over it. I think this is also why flying is such a shit show for the past three expacs: you get it so late that it doesn't matter. People feel like it's gone, but it's not. Both sides are equally chastised by the condescending, patronizing view Blizzard takes on the playerbase.

[tmamass]

Imbalance? Says Blizzard because we stepped out of the line of their vision on how to play the game.
We must play exactly how they want.

Its Blizzards game ofc you play how "THEY" want if you dont like it make your own game...

[Big Thanks]

You know what? I was being a bit of a dick and you just rationally answered. I'm impressed

I admit I was wrong and also more than a little surprised that you put the effort in to actually test things. Generally I play around with everything to see what feels interesting/looks cool/is fun... and then I see whether it's actually good by looking it up. I end up disappointed more than I like lol

To actually engage in argument: I think the real issue however has less to do with blizzard intentionally nerfing cool interactions or builds. That's a side effect of the real problem, which is that blizzard is utterly unwilling to buff underperforming specs unless they are egregiously behind; instead Blizzard would rather nerf the high end to bring specs down to the lowest common denominator than bring the bottom up to excellence. In the specific case of Unbound Chaos - and this may just be my bitter world-weariness speaking - but I think the issue was more that it was so divisive in the community. People argued and bitched one way or the other constantly, and so Blizzard just acted like a condescending parent: taking the toy away so we can't fight over it. I think this is also why flying is such a shit show for the past three expacs: you get it so late that it doesn't matter. People feel like it's gone, but it's not. Both sides are equally chastised by the condescending, patronizing view Blizzard takes on the playerbase.

I THINK, not sure, is just a feeling i have, Blizzard preemptively knows which specs they want to be the "top performers".
This feeling comes from the interview of when Demonology warlock was outperforming the other specs.
And Blizzard said something along the lines, "it makes no sense and we dont want Demonology to outperform the other specs"

So i think they decide the meta somewhat beforehand, and tune accordingly afterwards.
Could be wrong but is the feeling i get.

But im only up in arms about the removal of entire playstyles without tuning them and actually doing math/work on them.
They grab a shotgun and shoot them down no math involved.

[endersblade]

That’s the problem with having 40 specs in the game. Balance is prioritized over fun, emergent gameplay.

Still, it’s baffling that specs that worked in the past expansions and are nearly universally enjoyed are changed so often and dramatically.

What I would do personally is bring back designated PvP and PvE specs. Not every spec needs to be viable in every situation.

I have been advocating for completely, 100% separate specs for PvP and PvE since like BC...back in the day, they would nerf abilities because in PvP they would wreck face, but in the process they would completely neuter a PvE build. In this day and age there is absolutely ZERO reason for there NOT to be completely different specs, where NONE of the abilities are shared. That way they can balance each set of abilities based on whether or not it's PvE and PvP.

They could even go so far as to make it a thing where, at the start of each arena/BG/etc, you pick a handful of abilities that you'd use during the battle, and those are the only abilities you can use. Instead of having 30+ hotkeys to bounce around, you get, say, 10 total. Or 6. Or 5. Whatever. Main combat abilities, utility abilities, and CDs. That way you don't have to completely respec every time, you just get a different hotbar.

Of course the problem with this is world PvP. But considering how little of world PvP nowadays is actually 'fair' anyway, mostly just asshats ganking lowbies, I really don't care if PvE abilities are OP against other players. As long as organized PvP areas rely on a PvP-specific set of abilities, it would make things so much better.

[Wondercrab]

The first occurrence of this that I can think of was way back in Wrath, and it was probably the most egregious example of removing something awesome just because it wasn't intended. When Death Knights were first introduced there was no obviously good dual wield spec, because most of their skills focused on weapon damage and none of them hit with both weapons, so it was better to just use the standard slow two-hander style. But clever players figured out an awesome build that double dipped into Frost and Unholy to focus on auto attacks and spell damage. This not only made dual wield viable, but it also created a really cool Death Knight archetype that did a lot of its damage via spells and had very strong AoE. I can't even remember if this spec was particularly strong outside of AoE situations, but rather than just tweaking it or toning it down the devs nerfed several talents hard and rearranged the talent trees to completely remove the build. A very unique, very different archetype was just deleted overnight when it could easily have existed alongside the others.

[shadowmatrix]

Welcome to the world of multiplayer games, things rise and fall. Every games does it, has been doing, and will keep doing it so being surprised is useless. If you don't like that ebb and flow then you need to switch to single player games. It is not a Blizzard thing, it is a development thing.

[endersblade]

I THINK, not sure, is just a feeling i have, Blizzard preemptively knows which specs they want to be the "top performers".
This feeling comes from the interview of when Demonology warlock was outperforming the other specs.
And Blizzard said something along the lines, "it makes no sense and we dont want Demonology to outperform the other specs"

So i think they decide the meta somewhat beforehand, and tune accordingly afterwards.
Could be wrong but is the feeling i get.

But im only up in arms about the removal of entire playstyles without tuning them and actually doing math/work on them.
They grab a shotgun and shoot them down no math involved.

This is why I like games like Path of Exile. While obviously not a great direct comparison to WoW, the fact that you could have 50 people all using, say, Fireball, as their main ability but all using it in entirely different styles is the biggest draw to that game. Sure, that sort of wild freedom wouldn't translate well into WoW. But as you bring up Demonology, it was really interesting at that one point in WoW's history where people were attempting, and I think actually succeeding, to make it a viable tank spec. Then blizz swung the nerf bat with reckless abandon as usual. But it was that whole thinking outside the box that made it really cool. Or things like Shockadins back in the day. But Blizz wants us pigeonholed into specs that they want, and anything outside of that gets nerfed to the point where nobody wants to even use the ability anymore.

[Big Thanks]

The first occurrence of this that I can think of was way back in Wrath, and it was probably the most egregious example of removing something awesome just because it wasn't intended. When Death Knights were first introduced there was no obviously good dual wield spec, because most of their skills focused on weapon damage and none of them hit with both weapons, so it was better to just use the standard slow two-hander style. But clever players figured out an awesome build that double dipped into Frost and Unholy to focus on auto attacks and spell damage. This not only made dual wield viable, but it also created a really cool Death Knight archetype that did a lot of its damage via spells and had very strong AoE. I can't even remember if this spec was particularly strong outside of AoE situations, but rather than just tweaking it or toning it down the devs nerfed several talents hard and rearranged the talent trees to completely remove the build. A very unique, very different archetype was just deleted overnight when it could easily have existed alongside the others.

I didn't know this piece of history thanks for sharing

[Nefarious Tea]

I THINK, not sure, is just a feeling i have, Blizzard preemptively knows which specs they want to be the "top performers".
This feeling comes from the interview of when Demonology warlock was outperforming the other specs.
And Blizzard said something along the lines, "it makes no sense and we dont want Demonology to outperform the other specs"

So i think they decide the meta somewhat beforehand, and tune accordingly afterwards.
Could be wrong but is the feeling i get.

But im only up in arms about the removal of entire playstyles without tuning them and actually doing math/work on them.
They grab a shotgun and shoot them down no math involved.

An interesting notion. It sounds compelling but of course unless something were to slip at a live panel, there's no way we'd have any kind of proof. At the very least, it sounds plausible that they'd know what specs they expect to perform well based on guesstimates and when demo was so strong they were a little surprised because their internal napkin math said it would be lower than it was.

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The first occurrence of this that I can think of was way back in Wrath, and it was probably the most egregious example of removing something awesome just because it wasn't intended. When Death Knights were first introduced there was no obviously good dual wield spec, because most of their skills focused on weapon damage and none of them hit with both weapons, so it was better to just use the standard slow two-hander style. But clever players figured out an awesome build that double dipped into Frost and Unholy to focus on auto attacks and spell damage. This not only made dual wield viable, but it also created a really cool Death Knight archetype that did a lot of its damage via spells and had very strong AoE. I can't even remember if this spec was particularly strong outside of AoE situations, but rather than just tweaking it or toning it down the devs nerfed several talents hard and rearranged the talent trees to completely remove the build. A very unique, very different archetype was just deleted overnight when it could easily have existed alongside the others.

Yeah I remember that build. I fucking LOVED it, even if I only used it in pvp because I tanked dungeons/raids. I remember when they nerfed it

[Addiena]

Well, once upon a time there was this little talent called "Clarity of Power..."

Not only did they kill that talent, they killed Mind Spike too. Just for good measure. Just to see if they could prank us twice, they added Surrender to Madness and then smashed our faces into it just as we went to take a bite.

*cries in Guardian spec tears

My Warrior still misses Sword and Board DPS.

[Linkedblade]

They've done this plenty. Take a system that was iconic to shamans: totems. They iterated and improved how to summon them. Originally you had to use a castsequence macro. But they added a ui to pick which ones you could summon with one click. Then they added recall so you could move them and save Mana. Then they just removed them altogether.

They did the same with plenty of other seemingly harmless but fun play styles, that they could have iterated and left in game. Shockadin (another use for int plate). Frostfire mage(which they even added frostfire bolt), panzerkin (redundant with bear tank, but fun), Dark simalcrum, symbiosis, warlock tanking, i could go on and on.

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And I have to add that they always used PvP as the excuse to change class mechanics, when they should have just made a separate does for PvP or separate mechanics for PvP(which they did)

[Biomega]

For every "Blizzard doesn't allow fun" post, there's a "Blizzard can't balance their game" post complaining about the very same things the first post praised. Was Deadshot burst "fun" in PvP? Maybe not so much if you're on the receiving end and get boom-boomed because buffs and crits happened to align. Was Snake Eyes fun? Maybe not so much when you don't like the simplified play style but it deals more damage so you feel forced into it. And so on.

One way or another, Blizzard will piss off SOMEONE for SOME reason.