Why flying being gated behind rep grind makes no sense

[Shakana]

Guys, just, remember, flying breaks barriers.

I used to think that I could not go on
And life was nothing but an awful song
But now I know the meaning of true love
I'm leaning on the everlasting arms

If I can see it, then I can do it
If I just believe it, there's nothing to it

I believe I can fly
I believe I can touch the sky

[Zentail]

Got proof to back this up? This is the problem with broad statements like this. The reality here is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. In regards to flying, the only people you saw posting were people wanting it gone. That was in no way the majority of the player base. You say because people accept it means they like the decision. Also no true. Just because they don’t log on here and complain doesn’t mean they like it. They are probably people like me that realize there is no good bitching about it because blizzard does what they want regardless of how fucking stupid it is. Bfa is complete proof of that. If there was a way to make everyone respond and straight up ask flying or no, I’m guessing that the fliers would outweigh the “immersion nerds” 10 to 1. They just don’t get on here to complain so it appears that they don’t exist.

To a certain degree I agree with what you are saying. Where we differ is your claim that a majority of people are ok with it. I don’t think they are. I think they just accept it.

That could be true, but being okay with it and wanting it are on the same side of the coin. The only people who make it to the other side of the coin are the ones who actually don’t like it.

As for the amount of people, consider that there are potentially 3 million people playing WoW. A single thread on Reddit (which definitely has the most WoW traffic as far as social media) gets between 5-10k likes if it’s a hot topic. That same thread gets between 50-150 comments. That represents a tiny percentage (0.16 to 0.33%) of the player base. And that’s a hot topic.

You do bring up an interesting point though. When you said that people just accept it, it makes me wonder (though probably couldn’t ever be truly determined) how many people are ever for any feature. For example, does 99% of the player base just accept design choices because they maybe just don’t care, and that 1% is the actual amount of people that make Blizzard make changes? (for example in this case, say 0.2% truly don’t like this feature, and 0.4% like it, either side could easily be misrepresenting the 99.4% of other people)

[Jujudrood]

The ideal scenario is that, once you complete the main story (ie "see" everything on the ground they want you to see), you get flying.
I could support that level of gating because it encourages you to finish the main story of each zone on the ground in the way they want.
You do most of it while leveling anyway, and with flying being account-wide, you can level in the world, see the stories and zones, then alts can fly around and catch up.

The gating *could* make story sense if the reps actually affected flying in some capacity, like sky patrols and such, where the narrative would tell you you can't fly freely because it's a militarized zone or something.

But, I would also guess that they gate it behind reps (especially annoying ones, at that) because it keeps you logged in longer.
It keeps you playing "the way they want you to", which is often and for a long time.
The time it takes to get to a daily, on the ground, could be minutes, whereas flying gets you there in seconds.
Flying lets you finish faster, which then leaves no reason to remain logged in because, once you max a rep, there's little point in dailies.
So that's your "why"; daily logins and play time.

[Swnem]

Honestly, they had the flying right from TBC onwards. This whole achievement stuff is arrogance nothing more.

They want to force advertise their artists work. I have come to hate WoW's artists because of that. Because of people saying they do good work and they get the power to force everyone to look at their work until their eyes bleed.
No thanks, your work is not THAT good to do that. Give me flying after reaching max level. It will make the first year of the expansion way less frustrating and i will actually appreciate the artists efforts in the leveling experience.

[MasterOfNone]

@Zentail

For sure I get what you are saying. I think of it like this. The flying debate is like accepting a character flaw in a person. I’ll use my wife as an example. I love her to death but she has a tendency to procrastinate. I hate that about her. I’m the exact opposite. I accept her for who she is and go on. I don’t like it, and I never will. I’m not ok with it as a person but I’m ok with her as my wife. Nothing is ever perfect. You take the good with the bad. Now that being said, people could look at wow and say “vote with your wallet” etc etc. I have. I have tried other games to come to the realization that wow is a long term invested style game. I have zero inclination or time to restart something of this magnitude so I have to accept the features of wow for what they are. I don’t know how many people agree but I’m sure it’s waaaaaayyy more than the forums here would lead you to believe.

[Shakana]

Honestly, they had the flying right from TBC onwards. This whole achievement stuff is arrogance nothing more.

They want to force advertise their artists work. I have come to hate WoW's artists because of that. Because of people saying they do good work and they get the power to force everyone to look at their work until their eyes bleed.
No thanks, your work is not THAT good to do that. Give me flying after reaching max level. It will make the first year of the expansion way less frustrating and i will actually appreciate the artists efforts in the leveling experience.

If people believe they want to take flying just because players don't like it... Even devs said some Q&A, they want to make people appreciate their artworks, their world, places designs. They said this themselves, i'm not making stuff up. So the meaning is obviously that they want us to first appreciate the design and all details and all, and we do tbh, but taking off flying is a not way to go, pretty sure this amount of people talking flying breaks the game love having flying too, and it's a guilty pleasure without saying anyone. THE TRUTH IS EVERYONE LOVES TO HAVE FLYING

[MasterOfNone]

If people believe they want to take flying just because players don't like it... Even devs said some Q&A, they want to make people appreciate their artworks, their world, places designs. They said this themselves, i'm not making stuff up. So the meaning is obviously that they want us to first appreciate the design and all details and all, and we do tbh, but taking off flying is a not way to go, pretty sure this amount of people talking flying breaks the game love having flying too, and it's a guilty pleasure without saying anyone. THE TRUTH IS EVERYONE LOVES TO HAVE FLYING

It’s ironic you say that. After people have unlocked flying, I have not seen ONE person purposely riding a ground mount to appreciate game design or for immersion. I have asked almost every person on ground mounts that I have seen why they don’t fly and they all reply the same. “I don’t have flying yet.” It is never “I think the game is amazing from the ground mount and flying ruins it”.

[valky94]

TIL playing the game is grinding

[VinceVega]

sounds like you're a crybaby lol i raid and do mythics and i have no issues with pathfinder

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hard? lmfao no its not hard to get

I agree completly. It is laughable easy to get pathfinder. You don't have to no life. This time they implemented even a possibility to no live it which you could not do earlier. ( Killing ALL the rares every day)

The game is just not build around flying. I think it was a mistake they just have to live with now. It devalues every bit of content.
The only way around it would be an expansion on another planet where everything looks like Nagrand on steroids. THEN they could integrate flying into the actual gameplay. But in a normal fantasy world it just makes everything to... easy...
And yes i know i know i don't have to fly. But that is a hollow argument. If i want to stay even remotly competetive i have to fly.

[Aresk]

Cata's flying from the get-go was convenient but also cheap. I enjoyed the BC/WotLK/MoP model for mains. I like the WoD/Legion/BfA model for alts. I'd have no problem if they implemented them both, one a per-character for gold and the other an achievement for free.

But I disagree that Pathfinder is difficult, particularly in BfA. Assuming you play through the zone stories, you should get most of the way there with Part 1 just from quests. Quests will also take you to almost all the points of the zone for the explore achievements, with maybe one or two you have to go out of your way to get. By the time you finish the quests for the main continent zones and the war campaign, you should be at least halfway through honored; that's about three emissary quests to hit revered. Naz and Mechagon were a bit of a grind, but I was focused on getting those reps in order to get flying. My very casual spouse got flying a few weeks after I did (admittedly, having someone to fly you around made it a bit easier), but that was still putting in only a little bit of effort (about an hour to an hour and a half every other day or so and using the war table).

Note that I am a completionist, so I would want all the Pathfinder requirements anyway, even if they didn't give flying (the quest, rep, and explore achievements). I acknowledge some people really hate reputations, and I think it comes down to a case of how much you value flying over value not gaining reputations. I don't normally PvP, but I got up to 30k honor for the rank 3 essence because that was important to me; I'll never get the rank 2 rated essence because trying to get rating just isn't worth having that essence to me.

[valky94]

Becuase you are meant to earn it. Pathfinder is okay, have people get the basics of the expansion but not in multiple parts. Making things take a little more than just pay gold over also means chance of more money on the business side of it all.

i agree, pathfinder is a good thing, but imo it should be made harder and available at launch, not a year after the expac has launched

[CaptainV]

Honestly the no flying gang now have no excuse, classic exists for people that are adverse to flying, while retail can be used for people who "enjoy" flying.

If they go classic from vanillia to wrath thats fine, that way theres no flying in cataclysm, and players can enjoy flying when they unlock it in TBC and WOTLK and learn to appriciate why flying was fun and enjoyable.

WoD/Legion/BFA has prooven that "no flying" has never worked to enhance enjoyment, people are leaving faster due to the slow grinds, lower quality time gating and generally lazier design philosophy behind the expansions mechanics. Even if the stories are good/bad or terrible it doesnt matter, even if the first time leveling from 1 to level cap is great, it doesnt matter. No flying is detrimental to the game, has been detrimental to the game for a long time.

Blizzard probably recognises it by now, which is why im confident they will make the next expansion with flying in mind, theres a "reason" they made Nazjatar/Mechagon flight friendly, and thats becuse they know that having no fly zones is -unfun-.

Its the same reason I predict 8.3 (very likley the dragon isles at this rate) will have a flying unlock rep grind again, but that flying will be possible, because people dont -enjoy- being grounded.

See, I dont mind the idea that if pathfinder served to give flying in relevent content that'd be fine.

Example:

Pathfinder part 1, 9.0 content.
Pathfinder part 2, 9.2 content.
Pathfinder part 3, 9.3 content.

But even then, I personally think that isnt fun anyway, id rather they made zones with flying as part of their design choice, zones with floating isles or huge mountains were fun to traverse because it make the world feel monumental and huge.

Now, it feels like you stare up at these big mountains on ground only to realize once you can fly up them, they feel tiny, because they -are-.

Theres no real design of flight in mind content, and thats why flying is dull, but equally, why flying would be amazing, with flying zones designed with flying in mind.

[qwerty123456]

They gated it for the same reason they keep making retarded excuses for the Horde and Alliance to keep fighting when by this point they have worked together and saved each others lives so many times it would be silly to think most members of the factions would still hate each other: world pvp.

[MasterOfNone]

I agree completly. It is laughable easy to get pathfinder. You don't have to no life. This time they implemented even a possibility to no live it which you could not do earlier. ( Killing ALL the rares every day)

The game is just not build around flying. I think it was a mistake they just have to live with now. It devalues every bit of content.
The only way around it would be an expansion on another planet where everything looks like Nagrand on steroids. THEN they could integrate flying into the actual gameplay. But in a normal fantasy world it just makes everything to... easy...
And yes i know i know i don't have to fly. But that is a hollow argument. If i want to stay even remotly competetive i have to fly.

Hollow argument? How? How is flying keeping you from being competitive? Gathering professions? It seems to me like you are being a hypocrite here. Your claim is that flying “ruins the game” (which we all know is bullshit seeing that some of the most successful times in wows history had non gated flying) while you claim you fly to be competitive? How? M+? You can’t fly in dungeons. Raids? Same thing. World quests maybe!? If it’s things like world quests and profs, you are being a hypocrite. You are suffering the advantage of doing things faster so you can move on to more relevant things while waving your hand saying it’s “bad”.

[Xevarc]

I personally prefer to have flying at max level. Just like in MoP getting it as soon as max level and be able to travel around easier. I'm not a fan of waiting until half way through the expansion, Just means i hold off with certain achievements & Archaeology. That and i absolutely hate Daze

[Final Verdict]

flying adds as much to the game as the game is already designed for flight since TBC.
this nonsense about grounded for immersion is simply stupid.
being grounded reduces immersion and the aesthetic experience, as its exclusivly a horizontal experience without the vertical dimension. Suramar looks as impressive from above as the blackrock does...

btw - flying is optional, if u dont like, dont fly. dont pull the strawman argument of competition (cuz everyone else is flying, i ll lose the catch-up race) if ur main reason contra flying is immersion.

for many and myself WoW is so much better with flying for various reasons.

[Haloswin]

Are you insane? 3 hours every day doing the same exact thing like an effing bot for one month? If this is not torture, I don't know what is.

Three hours every day? I guess if you take breaks and are behind, sure -- otherwise it doesn't take anywhere near that big of a time sink. Do the "casuals" that "support" this game take breaks like that? Seems like the only people who this puts out are those that take those breaks and don't "support" it, like you claimed.

I don't have an opinion on whether they should make flying available at hello or not, I don't really miss it early on because of the whistle systems but I always enjoy it when I do unlock it. There is no question they make people do it the way they do in order to keep people playing. If it wasn't flying it would be something else... I'd rather it be something like flying than some sort of attunement to actually play the game.

[valky94]

Again, another dev who does not seem to understand the basic idea of this discussion: GRINDING IS OK, just not the type that makes me do THE EXACT SAME STEPS for HOURS every day for a whole month. Incredible.

thats the definition of grinding dude, repeating the same proces over and over again

[Shakana]

It’s ironic you say that. After people have unlocked flying, I have not seen ONE person purposely riding a ground mount to appreciate game design or for immersion. I have asked almost every person on ground mounts that I have seen why they don’t fly and they all reply the same. “I don’t have flying yet.” It is never “I think the game is amazing from the ground mount and flying ruins it”.

See? That's what i mean, no one ever on the game says "ye i like to be on the ground stuck on purpose, it's so enjoyable"

[Relapses]

The hardcore no-lifed it in a record time anyway, so gating didn't stop them from zooming through it. The losers are the casuals who support this game, yet they get treated with repetitive boring chores every day leaving them no time to really enjoy the game. It makes absolutely no sense.

I quit several times and even when I reactivated, I played once, or twice max per week, no longer than 1 hour a day and couldn't stand looking at the same zone anymore.

Who thought of this anyway? What's wrong with simply just not giving flying to anyone until a certain time has passed rather than make people hate your own game. This is beyond ridiculous.

Gotta pump up that engagement metric somehow mate. Blizzard doesn't really care whether you enjoy the content just that you do it. And no matter how much you hate it, there will be sections of the playerbase who find this type of reward meaningful. They're usually the ones too lazy to post on the forums (because they're busy doing the same five repeatable quests for the 329th consecutive day in a row).