[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival

[UnluckyAmateur]

I might be confused or something but what exactly is the spec fantasy with the pre-legion survival? Explosives and traps?

Honestly it sounds like it could just be rolled into a tinkerer spec with zero problems.

[Eapoe]

This has been debunked by the multiple times SV has been a high-performing spec yet still deeply unpopular since it's been melee.



Blatantly false. MM's representation in raiding and M+ is literally several times higher than that of SV.

Why are SV Hunters so comfortable with lying and inventing history?

This is a faulty argument. The times SV was a higher performing spec was places like Guldan in NH, while also being the advantage of being melee for the mechanics. This isn’t the only time, just the example I am using. It was brought up at that time that most average players simply wouldn’t have the traits or gear to switch even if they wanted to.
SV also has the issue that to actually be the higher performing spec it had to be played damn near perfectly to achieve it with a bigger emphasis on stat priority, while the other specs were just a slight bit behind with a much more forgiving playstyle.
There’s also the issue of “why bring a melee Hunter when the rdps counterparts perform just as well, have better survivability and better/equal CC, while you could bring a DH, Monk, or a Rogue that perform better in that role?”
Now, I’m not disagreeing and saying it’s vastly popular; and, I’m not saying there aren’t issues. The thing is, anecdotally, when I still played I had much more fun as SV than either BM or MM. The issue I had was any fight that had a melee “soft cap” or wasn’t outgeared to be an issue, I had to go rdps. Almost every M+ I tried to get in as a SV Hunter was instantly declined, yet I could swap to BM and get an instant invite. It got to the point it was just easier to stay BM/MM and carry 2 gear sets than try and play 3 when I struggled just to even get to play it outside of world play or the random LFG run.
That said, I do believe it will go back rdps by either next xpac or the one after. The interest of a melee Hunter has been hindered by stigmas of “Hunters aren’t melee,” as well as either underperforming or requiring very specific play to get the most out of it. I’ve also pointed out that “getting the most out of it” hasn’t even been high enough to justify the actual trying of it most of the time.

[Caperfin]

This has been debunked by the multiple times SV has been a high-performing spec yet still deeply unpopular since it's been melee.



Blatantly false. MM's representation in raiding and M+ is literally several times higher than that of SV.

Why are SV Hunters so comfortable with lying and inventing history?

Isn't there a separation of spec at one point between hardcore and casual players? One side doesn't know the other exists?

[F Rm]

Ranged SV was a thing from 1.7-6.2, yet after 2 expansions of melee people say that ranged SV will never come back? Get real, there's no logical reason it can't return.

I sort of agree.

Though I would argue that despite any history regarding the specs past iterations, there is no logical reason for why it cannot return. Even as a 4th spec.
In short, it ticks all the boxes in terms of the criteria necessary to warrant being an additional spec option.
Or I should say, it can tick all of them. It would depend on how it's designed.

If that was still how SV worked I'd want to keep it as a 4th spec. Unfortunately BfA brought the skill floor way down and made the spec unfun so fuck it.

We all have reasons for why we either like or dislike the current Survival.

The current SV being easier to play than the Legion-version can ofc be one of them.

I might be confused or something but what exactly is the spec fantasy with the pre-legion survival? Explosives and traps?

Honestly it sounds like it could just be rolled into a tinkerer spec with zero problems.

I would argue that it should be fairly easy to pick up on what the theme of pre-Legion Survival was/should be about.


Don't know if you read my original post in this topic with the suggestions but in short:

The core fantasy/theme involves in the enhancement of ammunition/arrows as opposed to Marksmanship that is thematically all about taking your time to get that perfect aim, followed by hitting that exact spot where your shot causes the most damage.

For pre-Legion SV, the fantasy is that you can basically hit an enemy in the arm and, thanks to your enhanced ammo(either through applied poison or extracted animal venom, or even explosives), the enemy will be weakened and will sooner or later also die.

Apart from that, my design involves enhanced traps and even some optional ways to further involve your pet, if you so wish(they are entirely optional though as some don't want to rely on a pet). I did this as this is a ranged spec and the upside of having optional ways to rely on a pet can be very useful at times. Like in open world content when questing or when leveling. Or just in general if you like pets.

But it's not meant to be another BM spec, hence why it's all optional choices and only one option has anything involving an active mechanic.


As for whether you'd like a design such as this? I couldn't tell. I hope that you would.
But yeah, that is what the fantasy of this spec would/should be about.

[Katchii]

This has been debunked by the multiple times SV has been a high-performing spec yet still deeply unpopular since it's been melee.

Current numbers show SV performance being bottom of the barrel.

Also, you didn't quote the rest of my post. Even if it was high performing, BM is also high performing and is significantly less difficult to play. It's a combination of those things There's very little reason to play SV over the other Hunter specs.

[gd8]

This has been debunked by the multiple times SV has been a high-performing spec yet still deeply unpopular since it's been melee.

Its "unpopularity" is more due to obsessive people like you constantly smearing it and giving it a bad reputation regardless of whether it's performing well or not rather than it being melee. melee specs are generally popular and widely played otherwise

Blatantly false. MM's representation in raiding and M+ is literally several times higher than that of SV.

Why are SV Hunters so comfortable with lying and inventing history?

both MM and survival are underrepresented compared to BM in M+ because they're both inferior to it at higher keys. and if we're talking arena MM is absolute bottom of the barrel - literally the least played spec in the game - while survival is typically the only hunter spec currently being played in any successful comps

[F Rm]

Its "unpopularity" is more due to obsessive people like you constantly smearing it and giving it a bad reputation regardless of whether it's performing well or not rather than it being melee. melee specs are generally popular and widely played otherwise

Sure, people often criticising a spec, either performance or gameplay will cause some to shy away from it. However, the biggest reason for why so few are playing it is more likely to be the fact that most hunters, play hunter because they prefer ranged combat.

And that then requires more new players to pick the MSV spec. But any non-hunters most likely already have well established, well progressed characters which they like to play as well. Characters who are also melee-based.

In most types of content, MSV doesn't bring anything that other melee classes/specs cannot bring as well in some form.

This will naturally result in few players picking the MSV spec. Especially as a main character.

both MM and survival are underrepresented compared to BM in M+ because they're both inferior to it at higher keys. and if we're talking arena MM is absolute bottom of the barrel - literally the least played spec in the game - while survival is typically the only hunter spec currently being played in any successful comps

Pet dependence, the pet AI, LoS dependence for BM, makes some people stay away from it in PvP.
There are off other reasons as well.

MM, don't have the same issues, though it has to deal with the requirement of being stationary at times along with the casted Aimed Shots.
Which will cause people to stay away from that as well.

[Bepples]

I might be confused or something but what exactly is the spec fantasy with the pre-legion survival? Explosives and traps?

Honestly it sounds like it could just be rolled into a tinkerer spec with zero problems.

Except, you know, having to create an entirely new class that steals aspects from Hunters.

This is a faulty argument. The times SV was a higher performing spec was places like Guldan in NH, while also being the advantage of being melee for the mechanics. This isn’t the only time, just the example I am using. It was brought up at that time that most average players simply wouldn’t have the traits or gear to switch even if they wanted to.

Most Hunters started off Legion as MM, most of them switched over to BM around the middle, and towards the end you had a roughly even balance of both.

People were switching specs. They just weren't switching to SV.

Look to your own posts before calling out others for "faulty arguments".

SV also has the issue that to actually be the higher performing spec it had to be played damn near perfectly to achieve it with a bigger emphasis on stat priority, while the other specs were just a slight bit behind with a much more forgiving playstyle.

SV difficulty is much more in line with the other two specs in BFA than in Legion.

There’s also the issue of “why bring a melee Hunter when the rdps counterparts perform just as well, have better survivability and better/equal CC, while you could bring a DH, Monk, or a Rogue that perform better in that role?”

Yes I agree being melee is a hindrance for the spec.

Isn't there a separation of spec at one point between hardcore and casual players? One side doesn't know the other exists?

Every spec in the game has a subset of hardcore and casual players. The only other reason the endgame content represenation would be low v.s. the "casual" representation is low performance, and that's not a problem for SV this expansion.

Plus, ranged SV had plenty of casual players too.

Current numbers show SV performance being bottom of the barrel.

Survival's performance is right in line with BM's performance and earlier this expansion it was exceptionally strong. Didn't matter.

Also, you didn't quote the rest of my post. Even if it was high performing, BM is also high performing and is significantly less difficult to play. It's a combination of those things There's very little reason to play SV over the other Hunter specs.

The difficulty gap between the specs is way smaller than you think.

Enough with the excuses. Melee is the problem, as admitted by Blizzard.

Its "unpopularity" is more due to obsessive people like you constantly smearing it and giving it a bad reputation regardless of whether it's performing well or not rather than it being melee. melee specs are generally popular and widely played otherwise

If people like me really did have a significant negative impact on the amount of people playing melee Survival then I consider it a job well done.

But sadly for you when Blizzard was asked about Survival's unpopularity they did not say "it's because Fpiceail from mmo-champion.com talks smack about it", but rather "a lot of existing hunters, they are all hunters because they want to be a range class".

The only spec less represented right now than SV is also a melee spec and the total ranged representation is higher than melee representation. But you are right that melee specs are generally more popular than SV. That should tell you that SV is an exceptional case for some reason; that reason being that it's the only one that was once a ranged spec in a ranged class and was suddenly changed to melee.

both MM and survival are underrepresented compared to BM in M+ because they're both inferior to it at higher keys. and if we're talking arena MM is absolute bottom of the barrel - literally the least played spec in the game - while survival is typically the only hunter spec currently being played in any successful comps

Yes they are both behind BM, but MM is still far ahead of Survival in M+. What you claimed was that there are more people playing Survival than MM. That's only true in arenas.

Speaking of it: the only reason SV is ahead in PvP is because of the hamstringing of BM and MM this expansion. It doesn't speak to the merits of SV being melee. SV is strong in spite of being melee, not because of it. It was even stronger in arenas the last time it was ranged. Yet another failed argument from an embarrasing melee SV zealot.

[Katchii]

The difficulty gap between the specs is way smaller than you think.

Enough with the excuses. Melee is the problem, as admitted by Blizzard.

Never said difficulty, I said complexity, those aren't the same thing.

Were the numbers you looked at a SIM? or from raid logs or some other form of real world application of the spec? The numbers I saw were from raid performance, showing the actual performance of the spec was one up from the bottom.

It's not an "excuse" it's one of the reasons, not denying it being melee doesn't have SOMETHING to do with it, but to say it's the ONLY reason is also misleading.

The source you're seeing from Blizzard is also 2 years old, before BfA launch. It's obviously still somewhat accurate, but I'm curious to know if it being melee still has as much to do with the spec distribution as it did at that point in Legion.

[Bepples]

Never said difficulty, I said complexity, those aren't the same thing.

Actually they are just about the same thing for the purposes of this discussion so stop being pedantic.

Were the numbers you looked at a SIM? or from raid logs or some other form of real world application of the spec? The numbers I saw were from raid performance, showing the actual performance of the spec was one up from the bottom.

I was looking at logs. The median BM and SV differ by 1 point yet there are literally 30 times more BM parses.

And remember, that's just this patch. In Uldir SV smoked BM in damage. It didn't matter. Meanwhile SV back in Siege of Orgrimmar performed notably worse than BM yet had higher representation.

It's not an "excuse" it's one of the reasons, not denying it being melee doesn't have SOMETHING to do with it, but to say it's the ONLY reason is also misleading.

Your original point here was that it had "little to do with game play and more to do with performance".

Melee is by far the biggest reason.

The source you're seeing from Blizzard is also 2 years old, before BfA launch. It's obviously still somewhat accurate, but I'm curious to know if it being melee still has as much to do with the spec distribution as it did at that point in Legion.

Simply put: it got a much easier and better-flowing gameplay loop, better performance, and a lot more ranged capability, yet it is STILL deeply unpopular. It just moved up from dead-last for all of Legion to "at least we aren't Subtlety".

[Katchii]

Actually they are just about the same thing for the purposes of this discussion so stop being pedan

Depnds on the point of view I guess, but I see your point.

I was looking at logs. The median BM and SV differ by 1 point yet there are literally 30 times more BM parses.

And remember, that's just this patch. In Uldir SV smoked BM in damage. It didn't matter. Meanwhile SV back in Siege of Orgrimmar performed notably worse than BM yet had higher representation.

OK, just wasn't sure what you were looking at.

Your original point here was that it had "little to do with game play and more to do with performance".

Melee is by far the biggest reason.

That wasn't my intention, but fair point. I just meant that the game play wasn't the only reason it was so weakly represented. It being melee is obviously a factor, just not the ONLY factor.

Simply put: it got a much easier and better-flowing gameplay loop, better performance, and a lot more ranged capability, yet it is STILL deeply unpopular. It just moved up from dead-last for all of Legion to "at least we aren't Subtlety".

I don't have any experience with it as a spec except in Legion to acquire the Artifact Weapon, so I can'r speak to how easy or more fluid it is now. I'll check it out, but as I'm sure is the case with many others and doesn't come a a surprise...I didn't play a Hunter to go melee. I just know my opinion isn't the only one and there are others who might like that fantasy.

Now that it exists and some people play it I don't think it should disappear, but I do think Blizzard made an error by making it in the first place. I hope real ranged SV comes back in the future and that they can balance this melee spec to make it desirable. Otherwise, I wouldn't be disappointed to see it go in favor of bringing ranged SV back. I'm not some advocate for melee SV, I really couldn't care less either way, I just wasn't convinced the only reason it was under represented was because it was melee.

[F Rm]

Every spec in the game has a subset of hardcore and casual players. The only other reason the endgame content represenation would be low v.s. the "casual" representation is low performance, and that's not a problem for SV this expansion.

Plus, ranged SV had plenty of casual players too.

This is not directed at you FpicEail. Just typing in general, regarding the topic of spec representation.^^


You can first check how many level 120 Hunters there are in total.

Then you can check how many of those make up each spec: BM/MM/SV

Then you can check the representation within certain types of content: PvE(raids or M+)/PvP(arenas or BGs)/Open world.

You can continue checking representation of specs even if you go deeper in focus towards specific talents/setups.


When checking whether a particular spec is well represented or not, you have to compare, at the very least, the first 3 steps above.
Sure, you can choose to base representation on just a specific type of content, but that will not actually give an accurate measurement of how popular a spec is at the time.

You can even check representation of specs over longer time periods(as long as those particular specs have existed really) if you want even more information to back up the end result. Why? Because this will give an even clearer picture of the popularity of a spec's actual design rather than if it was popular/unpopular due to performance.

The difficulty gap between the specs is way smaller than you think.

There is little difference between the current spec iterations that we have on live for Hunters.
The biggest factor, as far as difficulty goes, is whether you're a person who are good at handling pets or if you're good at predicting/dealing with required movement(due to certain restrictions) etc. etc.

I would argue that if you purely look at how the specs work mechanically, they are fairly equal when it comes to difficulty. This ofc hasn't always been the case.

It's not an "excuse" it's one of the reasons, not denying it being melee doesn't have SOMETHING to do with it, but to say it's the ONLY reason is also misleading.

No, it's not the only reason. There's almost never only one reason for why, for example, a spec is not well represented.

It's obviously still somewhat accurate, but I'm curious to know if it being melee still has as much to do with the spec distribution as it did at that point in Legion.

Yes and no.

Like FpicEail said: the design of the spec has changed A LOT between Legion and BfA. Yet, the only type of content where we see many(proportionally) MSV hunters today, is in PvP.

If you look at representation of the 3 specs for all 120 hunter characters, the gaps aren't as huge. Last time I checked, I think Survival was below the others by about 0.6% or so. Keep in mind that this is the percentage based on the comparison of all specs in the game, not just hunter specs.
Maybe someone can find the rep spread between only Hunter specs. From that, we will probably see that percentage numbers will differ quite a bit more.

So...why is this?

Most hunters will stick with ranged spec options because that's what they prefer(read: MOST). Some will choose melee ofc. And there will also be some "outsiders" who decide to roll a Hunter so they can play as MSV. But there wont be a ton of them either. For varying reasons.

I don't have any experience with it as a spec except in Legion to acquire the Artifact Weapon, so I can'r speak to how easy or more fluid it is now. I'll check it out, but as I'm sure is the case with many others and doesn't come a a surprise...I didn't play a Hunter to go melee. I just know my opinion isn't the only one and there are others who might like that fantasy.

Now that it exists and some people play it I don't think it should disappear, but I do think Blizzard made an error by making it in the first place. I hope real ranged SV comes back in the future and that they can balance this melee spec to make it desirable. Otherwise, I wouldn't be disappointed to see it go in favor of bringing ranged SV back. I'm not some advocate for melee SV, I really couldn't care less either way, I just wasn't convinced the only reason it was under represented was because it was melee.

I agree. The spec(MSV) should stay as, like you said, there are many players out there who do like that particular playstyle.

I've said this many times before but, if the goal is to implement an entirely new playstyle into a class, then it should NEVER be done by replacing an existing playstyle/fantasy. Like they did when they removed RSV in favor of giving us MSV.

The decision to add in a melee option for the class, I believe was a good one. But not in the way they did it.
Which is also the main reason for why we should get RSV back. And like above, it's not the only reason for why we should get it. But it is the main reason. Noone asked them(devs) to remove RSV. It was a well liked playstyle/fantasy.

Hence why this topic exists(on multiple forums, including the official ones) as I'm advocating for that 4th spec option. So we can all keep our preferred fantasies/playstyles.

[Dragonhawk]

I am in the camp of players who would consider resubbing if ranged SV came back. I didnt mind trying other classes and roles for 5 mans and when we had a raid on farm status, but I couldnt get into any other role or even spec when it came to raiding a new raid dungeon. I messed around with MM after they broke SV (WoD) and finished up the expansion as MM but I always found the mechanics clunky. So combined with my anger for Blizzard dumping my favorite spec and the spec I played for 10 yrs (I even did MM/SV hybrid in vanilla) I said goodbye to the game when Legion came out.

Now the argument of specs didnt feel different enough and that justified making a melee spec, was stupid as that argument held true for nearly every dps class in the game, melee and ranged. Really how different was a combat rogue vs an assassination rogue gameplay wise or between a frost mage and a fire mage. Warlocks probably had the most variety with a pet spec, and front end damage spec, and a dot spec. Hunters could have gone this route and Blizzard had actually started down that road when they decided to break the spec in WoD, though I admit it didnt go far enough.

What I would do for the spec and I would make it a new ranged spec is to make it a real dot spec. Now not having been in the game for a few years now I would say this is a full spec plan and it is mostly based off pre-legion mechanics and spells. So signature spells for the class would be these:

Serpent Sting: Nature dot single target, around 20 tics
Explosive shot: Fire dot single target, around 8 tics
Black Arrow: Bleeding dot single target, around 20 tics, short cooldown
Cobra Shot: Nature damage focus builder, no dot
Serpent Swarm: Multishot nature dot, with a cooldown
Napalm Shot: Will cause explosive shot to be consumed at once and spread the dot effect to other close targets, cooldown
Bear Trap: Bleeding dot. If target has both bleeds from Bear Trap and BA, the bleed effect is doubled below 30% health
Exotic Munitions: Allows you to make autoshots do either nature, fire or cold damage. Cold slows a target, fire puts a dot on a target and nature increases the effect of serpent sting/swarm.
Synergy: Pets now do either nature or bleed damage depending on the pet family.

So basically move the spec entirely from the physical upfront damage to a more nature based dot damage.

[Dadwen]

I am in the camp of players who would consider resubbing if ranged SV came back. I didnt mind trying other classes and roles for 5 mans and when we had a raid on farm status, but I couldnt get into any other role or even spec when it came to raiding a new raid dungeon. I messed around with MM after they broke SV (WoD) and finished up the expansion as MM but I always found the mechanics clunky. So combined with my anger for Blizzard dumping my favorite spec and the spec I played for 10 yrs (I even did MM/SV hybrid in vanilla) I said goodbye to the game when Legion came out.

Now the argument of specs didnt feel different enough and that justified making a melee spec, was stupid as that argument held true for nearly every dps class in the game, melee and ranged. Really how different was a combat rogue vs an assassination rogue gameplay wise or between a frost mage and a fire mage. Warlocks probably had the most variety with a pet spec, and front end damage spec, and a dot spec. Hunters could have gone this route and Blizzard had actually started down that road when they decided to break the spec in WoD, though I admit it didnt go far enough.

What I would do for the spec and I would make it a new ranged spec is to make it a real dot spec. Now not having been in the game for a few years now I would say this is a full spec plan and it is mostly based off pre-legion mechanics and spells. So signature spells for the class would be these:

Serpent Sting: Nature dot single target, around 20 tics
Explosive shot: Fire dot single target, around 8 tics
Black Arrow: Bleeding dot single target, around 20 tics, short cooldown
Cobra Shot: Nature damage focus builder, no dot
Serpent Swarm: Multishot nature dot, with a cooldown
Napalm Shot: Will cause explosive shot to be consumed at once and spread the dot effect to other close targets, cooldown
Bear Trap: Bleeding dot. If target has both bleeds from Bear Trap and BA, the bleed effect is doubled below 30% health
Exotic Munitions: Allows you to make autoshots do either nature, fire or cold damage. Cold slows a target, fire puts a dot on a target and nature increases the effect of serpent sting/swarm.
Synergy: Pets now do either nature or bleed damage depending on the pet family.

So basically move the spec entirely from the physical upfront damage to a more nature based dot damage.

I ended up unsubbing entirely after they broke it in WOD, came back for a few months in BFA because a friend dragged me back, but could not stand any of the classes really and left back in march, but as it stands now would not even consider re-subbing unless they brought back a half way decent range SV again (I just want something near LK or MOP design).

[Eapoe]

I ended up unsubbing entirely after they broke it in WOD, came back for a few months in BFA because a friend dragged me back, but could not stand any of the classes really and left back in march, but as it stands now would not even consider re-subbing unless they brought back a half way decent range SV again (I just want something near LK or MOP design).

I loved old SV. I love new SV. Wish they could give us a 4th spec for both. Would be happy if Blizz could redesign new SV to be competitive with other melee and not be a mess of how to play optimally.

[F Rm]

I am in the camp of players who would consider resubbing if ranged SV came back. I didnt mind trying other classes and roles for 5 mans and when we had a raid on farm status, but I couldnt get into any other role or even spec when it came to raiding a new raid dungeon. I messed around with MM after they broke SV (WoD) and finished up the expansion as MM but I always found the mechanics clunky.

It was pretty much the same for me for the time where we had RSV as a playable option. I played that spec, and that alone from end of WotLK up until it disappeared in Legion.

Still playing though.

Now the argument of specs didnt feel different enough and that justified making a melee spec, was stupid as that argument held true for nearly every dps class in the game, melee and ranged. Really how different was a combat rogue vs an assassination rogue gameplay wise or between a frost mage and a fire mage. Warlocks probably had the most variety with a pet spec, and front end damage spec, and a dot spec. Hunters could have gone this route and Blizzard had actually started down that road when they decided to break the spec in WoD, though I admit it didnt go far enough.

Agreed. You could draw comparisons between specs for other classes as well towards similarities/differences.

And in the end, it would not be a valid argument going forward anyway as they basically overhauled every spec going into Legion.
What any specs looked like prior to that, wouldn't matter.

They could have given RSV the same spec fantasy/identity overhaul as they did with all other specs.

This is essentially what I've done in this topic, regarding the suggested design.

What I would do for the spec and I would make it a new ranged spec is to make it a real dot spec. Now not having been in the game for a few years now I would say this is a full spec plan and it is mostly based off pre-legion mechanics and spells. So signature spells for the class would be these:

Serpent Sting: Nature dot single target, around 20 tics
Explosive shot: Fire dot single target, around 8 tics
Black Arrow: Bleeding dot single target, around 20 tics, short cooldown
Cobra Shot: Nature damage focus builder, no dot
Serpent Swarm: Multishot nature dot, with a cooldown
Napalm Shot: Will cause explosive shot to be consumed at once and spread the dot effect to other close targets, cooldown
Bear Trap: Bleeding dot. If target has both bleeds from Bear Trap and BA, the bleed effect is doubled below 30% health
Exotic Munitions: Allows you to make autoshots do either nature, fire or cold damage. Cold slows a target, fire puts a dot on a target and nature increases the effect of serpent sting/swarm.
Synergy: Pets now do either nature or bleed damage depending on the pet family.

So basically move the spec entirely from the physical upfront damage to a more nature based dot damage.

Would be okay with much of this.

Wondering a bit about Serpent Swarm though… Is it intended to be Multi-Shot combined with the old Serpent Spread passive added or?

For Napalm Shot, I chose a similar design tied to the Major CD. As far as spreading damage that is. I also added in a talent option that if picked, causes Explosive Shot to deal AoE dmg.

They tried some stuff with Bear Trap in the past, though it didn't really work out in the end. I chose to go with Immolation Trap instead as sort of a mid-range CD @1min baseline. You could pick a talent to be able to use it more often in case you like traps.
I gave the Trap a baseline longer CD though as many don't want traps to be part of their main rotation/priorities. Having it as a longer CD is a fair compromise.
Makes it more situational and less "spammy".


For Exotic Munitions, I found the WoD design to not live up to the theme. Or at least, I wouldn't call it exotic in terms of the SV theme of using explosives/poison/venom. As, this is exactly what SV would be about anyway.
Also, we have ranged weapon enchants/scopes in the game today that you can craft with Engineering that does this exact thing so...no point in having it as a passive as well.

But I did like the idea of the Exotic Munitions randomness somehow added to the spec. Which is why I tied it to your DoTs. And designed it to be fairly neutral. As in, you can have good RNG and you will notice the effect. But if you have bad RNG, it wouldn't make it feel like it breaks your gameplay. For example compared to Wild Call procs RNG for BM today. If you're unlucky with those, it just feels like shit tbh.

This design also let me do some fun stuff in the Talents section.

but as it stands now would not even consider re-subbing unless they brought back a half way decent range SV again (I just want something near LK or MOP design).

I would not mind some feedback on my design. What you think of it.

Anything in particular that you would want to add?

I've tried to add in elements taken from all iterations of the spec that we had(ranging from WotLK to WoD). + Some new stuff as well ofc.

[Maxilian]

I'm ok with the addition of a 4th Survival spec (well i guess it would have another name) as long as they don't take out the Melee Survival (Though i do think it can have some extra stuff -IMHO the Legion version of it was a little better as the Survival artifact ability worked quite well with it)

[Gasparde]

Hunter will never get a 4th spec, at least not a 4th pure dps spec, that's just not gonna happen. Like, I could see them going mental and turn one spec into a tank spec and maybe then add a 4th spec... but that's about as likely WoW 2.0.
I also 100% doubt that Blizzard is gonna admit defeat and just turns back time on SV to bring back the spec that so many people fucking loved and got removed for no fucking reason whatsoever.

I like the gameplay of current BM, at least the high crit version of it - low crit never proc Barbed Shot was just shit. I'd like to have Dire Beasts back in a meaningful form, not just a random ass 20s CD that doesn't do shit though, maybe something noticeable like the pvp talents. But other than that I'm pretty fine with the spec.
Same for MM nowadays after the shitshow that was 8.0 MM (I also thoroughly hated Legion MM). I do miss stuff like Focused and Kill Shot though, but other than that I'm perfectly fine.

And then there's fucking SV. I just don't understand why. Like, they could've changed BM to be slightly more melee-reliant and everyone would've probably been fine with it. But I just don't get why Survival had to become what it is now. And sadly I just don't ever see old SV coming back. I'd love it if they just came out and said 'fuck it, we screwed up, here's your SV again, sry' at Blizzcon... but it's just not gonna happen. Random ass melee SV is here to stay for the 10 people that actually enjoy it.

The only way I ever see SVs playstyle coming back is if they were to ever introduce a Dark Ranger class and give that a pretty much 1:1 replica of old SV but just call it some other shit. But I think Tinkers as a new class are way more likely at this point, so my hopes for every getting to play one of the most fun specs I've ever played again... are pretty much 0.

[F Rm]

Hunter will never get a 4th spec, at least not a 4th pure dps spec, that's just not gonna happen. Like, I could see them going mental and turn one spec into a tank spec and maybe then add a 4th spec... but that's about as likely WoW 2.0.
I also 100% doubt that Blizzard is gonna admit defeat and just turns back time on SV to bring back the spec that so many people fucking loved and got removed for no fucking reason whatsoever.

I like the gameplay of current BM, at least the high crit version of it - low crit never proc Barbed Shot was just shit. I'd like to have Dire Beasts back in a meaningful form, not just a random ass 20s CD that doesn't do shit though, maybe something noticeable like the pvp talents. But other than that I'm pretty fine with the spec.
Same for MM nowadays after the shitshow that was 8.0 MM (I also thoroughly hated Legion MM). I do miss stuff like Focused and Kill Shot though, but other than that I'm perfectly fine.

And then there's fucking SV. I just don't understand why. Like, they could've changed BM to be slightly more melee-reliant and everyone would've probably been fine with it. But I just don't get why Survival had to become what it is now. And sadly I just don't ever see old SV coming back. I'd love it if they just came out and said 'fuck it, we screwed up, here's your SV again, sry' at Blizzcon... but it's just not gonna happen. Random ass melee SV is here to stay for the 10 people that actually enjoy it.

The only way I ever see SVs playstyle coming back is if they were to ever introduce a Dark Ranger class and give that a pretty much 1:1 replica of old SV but just call it some other shit. But I think Tinkers as a new class are way more likely at this point, so my hopes for every getting to play one of the most fun specs I've ever played again... are pretty much 0.

I'm keeping my hopes up for that 4th spec option so we can get RSV back.

It might not be very likely no but...honestly, players kept asking for the return of Vanilla through the official game for well over a decade and A LOT of other people, incl devs said that it wasn't going to happen.

And now, here we are...


Now, does this mean that we will get RSV back? No, not at all. But all we can do is keep asking for it.
And the 4th spec route is essentially the only one that allows us to get it back without "hurting" the existing Hunter specs.

Also, I have no interest in seeing a dev come out and admit that they screwed up. I don't care for apologies. Give me RSV and I'm good.

[Gasparde]

And now, here we are...

Only took them close to a decade, hype.
It also only took them like half a decade to admit that their pruning might has gone ever so slightly too far - I personally can't wait to find out that by that they meant bringing back shit like fucking Eagle Eye and Far Sight and nothing else.

So yea, maybe they're running out of emergency boxes to break and we do indeed get our SV back one day...