new forsaken leader spoilers

[MatadorMedia]

Calia Menethil reclaiming leadership of Lordaeron has been expected since her reemergence in WoW. This indicates a greater likelihood of the faction merger coming to fruition in this next expansion; I hope BlizzCon announces cross-faction raiding so I can be a fluffy fox and still play with my Ally guild!

I don't think we'll be getting Lightforged Forsaken, however, as this will be a lore character only situation [much like how the players could not be an Blood Elf Forsaken like Sylvanas].

[Mehrunes]

So your headcanon is what you want Forsaken to feel like? Can't they grow as a race, or instead have the hidden desire (like desolate council, and the events in before the storm have shown) to be lead by a kind queen?

Since when does growth equal crawling to the opposite of what your race is?

Who do you prefer? The rightful heir to Lordaeron, who cares about you? Or the bitch who ressed you just so that she can take advantage of you, and drip feed you small doses of pretentious ''care'', while keeping you in the most miserable state ever?

I know that if I was forsaken, I'd choose the former mate. I don't give a fuck if Sylvanas was turned undead same as them. She wasn't forced to serve a retard, unlike her forcing the forsaken to do so. So while their circuminstances of undead are the same, Sylvanas gets to enjoy 'shaping' them, while they get to be worthless pawns. Fuck this shit.

And Forsaken can't choose one of themselves, because...? For god's sake, there are still members of the Desolate Presence remaining.

If people stop playing forsaken cause a different leader got placed at their non-existent as of now capital, then that's their fault being stupid. Trolls haven't had a racial leader since start of legion, yet I see people running as trolls around literally everywhere because they like their aesthetics, including animations, or just the racials or sometimes class choice (like druid). Only people who will care are a couple of sylvanas irl loyalists from MMO-champion, because as always, MMO champion is 99% of the game's population, and their word is holy, and they are essential to this game staying alive.

Except it's not about simply a different leader. It's about Calia specifically. Because she doesn't fit the Forsaken for squat. If Zalazane became the leader of the Darkspear after Vol'jin, it'd be just as stupid.

At least you rotting babies get a new racial leader. Orcs and trolls are still waiting.

Rokhan becomes the Darkspear leader in 9.3. And by the looks of it Thrall will be on the council, which likely means he's the Orc leader.

So I've played Forsaken, and literally almost all of their identity hinged on Sylvanas or deifying her to the point it took over what made them interesting in the struggle of being raised into undeath.

Did Forsaken merrily killing sleeping Druids in Ashenvale revolve around Sylvanas even though she stayed behind in Undercity? Did Forsaken hiding their questionable allegiance to the Horde in Swamp of Sorrows by sneakily killing a human prisoner trying to warn the Horde about it revolve around Sylvanas even though she was still in Undercity? The Forsaken acted the way they did because they are undead and as such they have drastically negative affect. Their wolrdview aligned with Sylvanas' because she is also an undead. Not because Sylvanas pulled a gun to their head and forced them to behave that way.

Am I missing something or is their identity according to Forsaken mains supposed to be self-loathing abominations banding together in worship over their queen?

You're missing the part where you're engaging in a sad straw-man right here. And even if you weren't, taking the worship of their queen part doesn't logically lead to them abandoning all the rest on the spot and crawling over to Calia who is the complete antithesis of what the Forsaken have been for years instead of simply going back to self governance through Desolate Council (who still has surviving members to begin with) . There's growth after Sylvanas and then there's hamfisted horseshit where a female clone of Anduin is forced onto the single least Alliance-like race of the Horde in the matter of seconds.

Their whole "free will" aspect was thrown out the window with Sylvanas raising into undeath and even killing those who didn't "free will" her way.

How exactly was it thrown out of the window when Blizzard explitly confirmed it's the cornerstone of their society and the very first post-Cata quest of the Forsaken revolves around joining the Forsaken being a personal choice? And no, Sylvanas didn't kill those who didn't "free will" her way. She killed those who free willed into the Forsaken society only to then betray it. Voss told the Forsaken to fuck off for years and she was left alone to her own devices. The Rotbrain were left to their own devices until they banded together in order to attack the Forsaken. All the Forsaken that left the faction like Leonid Bartholomew faced no reprieve even if they joined factions as different to Sylvanas' one as the Argent Dawn.

They are finally free of her and can go any number of ways now. Just because Calia and Voss are being sympathetic to them after they lost a beloved leader, and also to the now undead sentinels and dark rangers, doesn't mean they have somehow been killed off. We don't even know what's going to happen, maybe the desolate council steps up and cements an identity along with Calia, Derek, and Voss as new champions of the Forsaken who put them first even over Alliance and Horde.

But they are not going any numbers of ways now, are they? They are going the way of a female Anduin that has nothing in common with what they've become since the fall of Lordaeron (or nothing in common at all with the Forsaken of Thalassian origin).

I basically just see one sided overpoint view such as "forsaken is dead", you have it wrong right there, and if we are going to see each other's views, why you don't understand ours then?

"Why don't you understand our view?" "You have it wrong right here." Just fascinating.

WoTLK is long gone, Arthas is defeated, Sylvanas has been turned into a character with total other plans for her and she really doesn't give much about the horde or even the undead if that goes against her plans. And that's even why she choose saying they are all nothing. Undead had a really bad time after death, and pain of their fate, they now will probably feel less lost with Calia, as she said many times, that she needed support from Jaina's brother to not feel lost. The forsaken had Sylvanas and Sylvanas many times, when undead didn't do what she asked, even new turned undeads, she would just kill them, no one has free will and she pretends they are traitors. They have no free will. Calia will give them free will. If one side has to understand the forsaken against the scourge and the living (because they were mad and had a leader that would made them be even more mad and wanting revenge), try as well understand my side for example of wanting the forsaken to stop feeling so much pain of what because they have been turned into.

And did Forsaken magically change what they were prior to Cata after Arthas' death? Not really. Instead they went on a rampage across the entire Lordaeron continent, starting with the invasion of Gilneas that began when Sylvanas wasn't even there.

And your claim that no one had free will in the Forsaken society is outright fanfiction given that we had Ask a CDev reply explicitly confirming they do. Sylvanas didn't "pretend they Forsaken she killed are traitors", she killed the Forsaken that were traitors. The Forsaken that stole her bloodstones? They stole from her and defected to Kirin Tor. Stillwater? Broke Forsaken law. Koltira? Made an unaothorized truce with the enemy. People at the Gathering? 11 out of 12 were defecting to the Alliance, Elsie disobeyed the orders about when to retreat and continued to argue with Calia even after the horn was sound.

The worst possibility came to pass.

Does this mean Calia also has a seat in the greater Horde council? Might as well just call us vassals now.

With people like Baine "The human Doormat" and Thrall "I already punished my people for how they treated the humans in the past 15 years ago and I only grew into an even bigger Alliance lover since then" on the council as it is Calia's presence isn't needed. The Horde is already an extension of the Alliance as it is.

Also the whole "Lightforged" feels so cheap. Why not have Calia be a regular Forsaken while still being more optimistic and hopeful through her experiences with Alonsus Faol. So that she knows what being Forsaken feels like but also has a huge positive influence with Alonsus Faol.
So that some Forsaken, after maybe growing (visible again, IN GAME) more and more annoyed with Sylvanas and her bleak view and her "they are arrows" approach have a reason to come to her other than "she is the sister of the guy who doomed us all and we really need a moncarch to tell us what to do".

But without the Light that our lord and savior god-boiking Anduin exemplifies coursing through her entire being she wouldn't be as close to him. And that just can't do. Especially for a Forsaken leader.

Of course spice that thing up with conflict coming from other sub factions of Forsaken.

Sub factions of the Forsaken? What's that? Blizzard couldn't have been arsed to portray any differences between OG Forsaken and post-Cata Forsaken.

With :effort: and worldbuilding there is a good story here. But Blizz isn't doing that.

Cut them some slack. They are allergic to effort. You're shaming them for a medical condition. That's kinda albeist.

Yeah, Sylvanas was a piece of shit. Maybe if they could just get back a member of the Royal Menethil Family of Lordaeron, who knew many of them before they were forsaken, and allied with an undead priest (Alonsus Faol), can understand the plight of HER people.... and even tried to reunite those people with those of their still living family, and took an arrow for it....

But yeah, go ahead and tell us how Calia Menethil has nothing to do with the Forsaken, the former people of Lordaeron, her home.

And, pray tell, how on earth does she understand the plight of "HER" people when she bailed out on them for over a decade and didn't go through a shred of what they went through? She didn't get resurrected by the necromantic powers that affect people negatively in terms of their emotions. Instead she was the exact same naive and hopeful (if anything, even more hopeful) girl she was before she got killed. She hasn't spent months enslaved to the Lich King. She didn't have to claw her way to making a secure place for herself in the world. She wasn't shunned by her former allies, friends and family. Or even the Light she previously worshiped. She didn't have to prove herself to a distrusting faction she joined. When it comes to undeath and what it entails, compared to the Forsaken Calia had everything handed to herself on a silver platter.

But hey, she got an arrow to the heart for the people that tried to betray the Forsaken and leave them for an enemy faction. What a connection you got here

And how is it not bland for the Forsaken to be completely set on one thing, to be retarded douchebags who just want to 'dominate' the living? If anything, them having people among them who just hate being what they are, and not being loved, shows actual depth to the race, by not making them all a single hivemind with one goal.

I think you are just pretty bad at knowing what is 'depth' in a character, or a race, and are just trying to project what you find 'cool' onto what the Forsaken 'should' be according to your canon. But fear not! You can login classic and enjoy being an undead who blows everything up, together with all the other undead, with zero depth, and a race that cannot think for itself.

Except they aren't completely set on one thing. You don't even know the race you're trying to discuss here, but please do go on about what would give it depth. Hint: it's totally them being led by an antithesis of themselves /s

The forsaken must be quite fond of the name Menethil. So many wonderful memories. A king,who supported the imprisonment of orcs and ignored the advices of his allies, ignored the warnings about the plague; his son,who betrayed all of his people and damned to miserable existence. Such a wonderful dynasty. I think,that forsaken will be quite happy to be ruled by the "rightful" ruler,right @Mehrunes @Friendlyimmolation ?

You forgot the bit where Arthas' downfall was largely caused by his monumental daddy issues because Menethil senior couldn't ever be arsed to say "Oy, son, me being proud of you today doesn't mean I won't be proud of you tomorrow. You don't have to bend over backwards each day to earn my pride."

So is with elves. forsaken had barely any story besides being around sylvanas. Sylvanas this and that, and val'kyries. Forsaken people apparently ain't forsaken people anymore, just tools of Sylvanas and Sylvanas is always the one speaking for the forsaken.

Except for all the times when Forsaken were doing their thing, that Calia stands in direct contrast of, with Sylvanas chilling back in Undercity.

That's why i want to see a redemption of Menethil in Calia. I know you and most of the people hate the "redemption" storylines but as for Lordaeron i wish they actually have Menethil ruler that doesn't follow the bad steps of her family.

And why is the person who bailed on the Forsaken only to feel sorry for herself about how she bailed out on them deserve it to be the one to redeem the Menethil name?

Seemed to me that the Forsaken slaughtered on the fields of Arathi, via THEIR queen, didn't share your sentiments.

Wow, whole 11 of them. With Forsaken being the ones to kill them. And a Forsaken Priest being the one to inform Sylvanas about Calia's shenanigans.

Everything you've stated here is of no consequence. Calia is not loved by the living. She is an enigma.... a question with no answer, concerning how she has come to be. Every day since the initial events of WC3, the loss of her father, and the knowledge of who was responsible (her own brother), the knowledge that the Forsaken were now suddenly, and inexplicably, in control of their own mind, and her not being able to do shit about any of that... until now.

She's a pal of the bestest living to ever live, but sure. Never mind that already prior to her resurrection even the likes of Genn and Turalyon accept Faol just fine and Faol was a normal undead, not one created by the holy Light. But I'm sure the living will have a ton of issues with Calia.

When people start the game as an undead, they are not raised and immediately drafted into Sylvanas' unending army of pawns so they can die again at her whim.... they are offered a choice. Granted, their options are not great ones, and in some cases actually ARE to become Sylvanas' expendable pawns, before they were freed from the grip of the Lich King, they were none the wiser.

Except Lich King's pawns weren't "none the wiser". They were still there, it's just that the will of the Lich King overwhelmed their own.

I also know of several other individuals who became various undead, and didn't seem to be too affected by it. Kel'thuzad is likely the best example, and of course, can't forget about Arthas Menethil. Or Teron Gorefiend.

Arthas' psyche outright split and he was already pretty deranged before that. Kel'Thuzad went crazy already in life. Gorefiend was a Shadow Council psychopath already in life.

Forsaken were humans once. Many of them seek to be humans through their deeds. Everything you stated is not Calia's vision for the forsaken. They are part of Azeroth. How they came to be, well, it's anyone's guess how it all happened, but it did happen. She's their best hope for her people to once again be treated as people rather than as monsters. Too bad not everyone has that vision for them.

And they need a female Anduin to seek to be humans why, exactly? Those wanting to do that were doing so long before Calia crawled out of her safe haven.

I'm not a fan of Sylvanas, but what does Calia even know about being a forsaken? She was brought back to life in a different manner - she was revived by the Naaru, not by the hands of the Scourge. She was not turned against her family members,friends. I suppose,that she even has a different mindset - way more human than the ones of the forsaken. She hasn't been through the same shit as the other forsaken - so,how can such an invidual lead the race she knows nothing about? How long time is she forsaken - a year or less? And then she says,that she understands the forsaken...

She is a Forsaken for no amount of time so far. She is an undead. And while Blizzard seems to have forgotten their own story in recent times and tries to push the idea that Forsaken = any free willed undead they can fuck right off with that. Forsaken are explicitly their own faction and the free willed undead that haven't joined them are by default not Forsaken, just like not all living humans are somehow Stormwindians.

Excuse me if i don't actually mind with Calia leading them, because i'm already tired of the focus on Sylvanas and how hot she is and waifu babe.
I understand all your points concerning the forsaken but you're also failing to see that the forsaken only had one thing similar to Sylvanas that was sharing the fate that the lich king made them go through. Sylvanas after her last death has been acting around other interests. But she is still waifu.

Oh, wow, the Forsaken "only" have the moment that defined them in common with Sylvanas? Ah, that's nothing then Never mind that they had much more in common with her, like all the things they went through even after breaking away from the Lich King. Which, for the most part, they achieved precisely because of Sylvanas. It's Sylvanas who secured a place in the world for them. It's Sylvanas that secured a place in the Horde for them. It's her that led them to victory against their enemies that wanted them dead. It's her that broke many Forsaken out of Lich King's grasp personally in the first place.

I don't mind having redeemed undead and i also don't mind the original forsaken mindset, because many undead had a bad transition and some of them unpredictable had a crazy bad experience others had a more peaceful one, and others are just neutral, not all of the forsaken is likely, derek for example, he had standards himself, and he only didn't felt lost because baine took him home and he met Calia. But undeads that had nothing like this was struggling all their life after the undeath. They wanted revenge, they wanted to all to die, they were absolutely mad.

Except the latter is the stark majority of the Forsaken. And even the more peaceful ones went through things that Calia didn't. Even those went at their more peaceful ways differently than Calia "let's sing kumbaya with the Alliance that wanted you dead" Menethil. They still were shunned by the world. Still unable to use their previously holy Light without feeling great pain. Calia is none of that.

Both are acceptable. I just accept the fact that the rightful queen of Lordaeron is there. Doesn't mean i hate the original undead, or that they should not exist, because i love them too. And all their struggles make them interesting indeed. But god knows how relieved i am for Sylvanas to finally get the fuck away.

You're engaging in a false dichotomy here. And Calia is rightful nothing. She abandoned her people and chilled in the safety of the Draenei temple with other Priests only to feel sorry for herself about how she failed "her people" while the Forsaken had to fight for the very right to exist because other Light zealots or Calia's precious Alliance buddies wanted them extinct.

Terenas II chose to fight for his kingdom. I understand that. Running is not an answer in war unless you have a plan to regroup. Medivh did not offer a plan to regroup. Hard call without a crystal ball that sees the future what would happen.

Terenas did nothing of the sort. He utterly ignored the threat Medivh warned him about and blindly focused on the issue of the Orcs.

It is not her fault. She wasn't able to do anything to change or stop these events from unfolding. If you're saying she is guilty by virtue of being a descendant, well I hope you're never held to the same standard. Her desire to help lead the forsaken has nothing to do with, and of right ought to have nothing to do with penance for her hand in what is now the Forsaken. She didn't have a hand in it. She has nothing to be sorry for, or take responsibility for.

Her desire to help lead the Forsaken was for most of her life after the fall of Lordaeron was nothing but empty thoughts and something Calia used to feel sorry about herself. Other than that she bailed on the Forsaken. Even though she could have reached out to them at any point through Faol. But she distanced herself from her heritage and continued to do so even in Legion. Because that would required actually giving a shit about them. But that would have required her to abandon her fancy place in a safe Draenei sanctuary. She only took action when some traitors to the Forsaken already decided to defect and handed her an opportunity on a silver platter. And after that she came only after Sylvanas already left and again gave her an opportunity on a silver platter.

All you really need to know about the people who support Calia is that virtually all of them didn't have a prior interest in the Forsaken or most often even the faction they're in and that their core arguments are either poor or completely disingenuous. "I'm tired of the Forsaken being a cult of Sylvanas, that's why I'm okay with their entire roster vanishing to be replaced by one that is a cult of a different Queen" or "Sylvanas is just waifu bait and that's why people like her, the real connoiseur respects this different undead Queen who has an even bigger pair of tits on her", etc. etc. It's not about them being one note, because the new version is even more one note and has zero dissent. It's not about complexity, as there's no complexity to be had - the drama that made characters like Zelling, Voss or even the goddamn Desolate Council run has been defused leaving them unconflicted clones.

The real reason people support Calia is because they prefer this new version of the undead over the old one and prefer humans with a skin condition and cosmetic difference with the living over the prior identity of the race. They can identify better with them. That's fine. There's nothing wrong in admitting that, but it'd save you a lot of trouble championing absolutely asinine arguments like the above.

Preach.

[Stormdash]

So a character with no development who might as well not exist because the character people want is paper-thin?

The reason WoWs lore stagnates so fucking much is because every time Blizzard tries to do anything with any character, people rage like man children that they should not change the status quo. All they want is the same old characters of Thrall, Sylvanas and Arthas, with no chances to their character.

That is a strange reply to me literally saying "take this new character and greatly expand her role instead of handing the not-particularly-Forsaken over to two thinly drawn retreads.

[Maxilian]

My only interest in the story of Calia, is the new whispers, as i think that this whisper:

"The golden one claims a vacant throne. The crown of light will bring only darkness."

Is actually talking about her

[Dch48]

Exactly what I was expecting and I think it's great. The best choice by far.

[Irian]

Except they've been doing typical Forsaken shit without a sliver of Sylvanas in their general vicinity. The idea that the Forsaken haven't had an identity since Vanilla is flat out bogus. Just because they *gasp* shared in Sylvanas' outlook doesn't mean they had no identity or that it was all shaped by Sylvanas.

Under Sylvanas's orders. Doing things on behalf of the Forsaken ruled by Sylvanas. Acting on behalf of the faction created and ruled by Sylvanas. Do I need to spell this out more? Or are you seriously trying to imply that Forsaken without Sylvanas in their immediate vicinity aren't still acting on behalf of Sylvanas?

Until now there has never been a sign of a splinter faction or any group dissent within the Forsaken. At best we had the events in Before the Storm and Sylvanas killed them all. If you genuinely think Forsaken all acted independently and there was no level of fanatical worship within the Forsaken you're either delusional or just being obtuse for the sake of it.

[Seradi]

All you really need to know about the people who support Calia is that virtually all of them didn't have a prior interest in the Forsaken or most often even the faction they're in and that their core arguments are either poor or completely disingenuous. "I'm tired of the Forsaken being a cult of Sylvanas, that's why I'm okay with their entire roster vanishing to be replaced by one that is a cult of a different Queen" or "Sylvanas is just waifu bait and that's why people like her, the real connoiseur respects this different undead Queen who has an even bigger pair of tits on her", etc. etc. It's not about them being one note, because the new version is even more one note and has zero dissent. It's not about complexity, as there's no complexity to be had - the drama that made characters like Zelling, Voss or even the goddamn Desolate Council run has been defused leaving them unconflicted clones.

The real reason people support Calia is because they prefer this new version of the undead over the old one and prefer humans with a skin condition and cosmetic difference with the living over the prior identity of the race. They can identify better with them. That's fine. There's nothing wrong in admitting that, but it'd save you a lot of trouble championing absolutely asinine arguments like the above.

Yes it is really telling that almost all of the people shilling for Calia and nuForsaken are Alliance players. From what I’ve seen across several mediums is the the majority of Horde players and Forsaken players do not. I don’t know why that offends some of you so much.

[Aucald]

All you really need to know about the people who support Calia is that virtually all of them didn't have a prior interest in the Forsaken or most often even the faction they're in and that their core arguments are either poor or completely disingenuous. "I'm tired of the Forsaken being a cult of Sylvanas, that's why I'm okay with their entire roster vanishing to be replaced by one that is a cult of a different Queen" or "Sylvanas is just waifu bait and that's why people like her, the real connoiseur respects this different undead Queen who has an even bigger pair of tits on her", etc. etc. It's not about them being one note, because the new version is even more one note and has zero dissent. It's not about complexity, as there's no complexity to be had - the drama that made characters like Zelling, Voss or even the goddamn Desolate Council run has been defused leaving them unconflicted clones.

The real reason people support Calia is because they prefer this new version of the undead over the old one and prefer humans with a skin condition and cosmetic difference with the living over the prior identity of the race. They can identify better with them. That's fine. There's nothing wrong in admitting that, but it'd save you a lot of trouble championing absolutely asinine arguments like the above.

I think there's actually an unaccounted middle ground in all this, which is mostly left undiscussed and unobserved due to the polarization of the pro and anti-Calia camps. Goes back to the same basic gist I've maintained for some time - the Forsaken not being a monolith, being neither 100% hateful or seeking the death of all living beings nor 100% seeking atonement and/or "humans with a skin condition" as the hyperbole goes. That's kind of why I want the Forsaken to have two leaders - who I often feel will wind up as Lilian Voss and Calia Menethil, one leader for each side of the Forsaken polity: those who embrace undeath and wish to use it as a weapon against those who threat them, and those who seek some form of remedy or "cure" be that physical or spiritual. There's room for both viewpoints among the people, and having that internal rift opens up far more narrative possibilities for the Forsaken as a race.

Calia can minister to those Forsaken who seek a way out of the hatred and inward-violence that have defined the Forsaken up to this point, those who feel as the Desolate Council once did and have been cowed from further dissent due to what happened to them. Voss can represent and likely moderate the more practical element of her people, like Belmont, who seem to embrace undeath as a state of being and not a transitory condition. Hopefully, with sufficient time the Forsaken can find themselves in a more balanced footing and can actually join the Horde in earnest, something they've yet to really do on any significant level due to holding themselves apart for so long.

[ChairmanKaga]

All you really need to know about the people who support Calia is that virtually all of them didn't have a prior interest in the Forsaken or most often even the faction they're in and that their core arguments are either poor or completely disingenuous. "I'm tired of the Forsaken being a cult of Sylvanas, that's why I'm okay with their entire roster vanishing to be replaced by one that is a cult of a different Queen" or "Sylvanas is just waifu bait and that's why people like her, the real connoiseur respects this different undead Queen who has an even bigger pair of tits on her", etc. etc. It's not about them being one note, because the new version is even more one note and has zero dissent. It's not about complexity, as there's no complexity to be had - the drama that made characters like Zelling, Voss or even the goddamn Desolate Council run has been defused leaving them unconflicted clones.

The real reason people support Calia is because they prefer this new version of the undead over the old one and prefer humans with a skin condition and cosmetic difference with the living over the prior identity of the race. They can identify better with them. That's fine. There's nothing wrong in admitting that, but it'd save you a lot of trouble championing absolutely asinine arguments like the above.

As there has been alot of speculation for an Alliance group of Undead (Lightforged or whatever), What if instead of Calia becoming the new Forsaken leader this is just the way to introduce said Alliance faction?
By that I mean from this text we are all assuming Calia would become the racial leader for a full expansion or more but what if this is designed to create this exact push back by existing Forsaken/Horde players and mirror that in the story. ie. Some Forsaken who want nothing to do with Calia remain in the Horde and Calia takes with her back to the Alliance a contingent of currently Forsaken but to later be called the Accepted or some such. Perhaps play this out from 8.3 - 9.0 instead of just pulling another Void Elf debacle.

If that is what Blizz intends I could get behind that idea.

[Shakana]

@Mehrunes you're too pro-Sylvanas

[RH92]

Under Sylvanas's orders. Doing things on behalf of the Forsaken ruled by Sylvanas. Acting on behalf of the faction created and ruled by Sylvanas. Do I need to spell this out more? Or are you seriously trying to imply that Forsaken without Sylvanas in their immediate vicinity aren't still acting on behalf of Sylvanas?

Until now there has never been a sign of a splinter faction or any group dissent within the Forsaken. At best we had the events in Before the Storm and Sylvanas killed them all. If you genuinely think Forsaken all acted independently and there was no level of fanatical worship within the Forsaken you're either delusional or just being obtuse for the sake of it.

Uhm, did you forget about Putress in WotLK? Even in Hillsbrand Foothills there is a quest where Warden Stillwater directly opposes Sylvanas.

Most of the Forsaken are vicious cunts anyway, it is not like Sylvanas orders them to be sadistic maniacs. She never really cared as long as they succeed.

@Mehrunes you're too pro-Sylvanas

He is not, he is actually right.

If they wanted to redeem Forsaken they could have continued the forgotten storyline of Tauren helping them find a cure for undeath. It is actually Tauren who played a huge role in their acceptance into Horde and it would make a perfect sense with Sylvanas' disappearance and Baine in charge.

[Sesto]

Calia is hotter than Voss so I gladly accept her

[Highelf]

Why do you act like I'm saying they haven't been violent? I haven't even mentioned something being close to it. I'm telling you why the faction even exists and why it was created. I'm not disputing what they have done.

I'm not saying that making them more peaceful is even wrong. It makes sense to try and make forsaken change in that regard. The fact still remains that the identity and reasons for the faction even existing i still that they are cast out and shunned by previous family members after being turned undead.

Lillian Voss confirms that is still a big part of why forsaken are forsaken with the Thomas Zelling quest line as of two patches ago. You saying that the identity have changed and its not about that is just wrong.
She makes it very obvious that him being reawaken as undead will most likely make his family turn against him and he will be truly forsaken. He takes that risk and its proven right away that it still rings true. His family forsakes him and he is taken into the faction.

You can't say that the identity has changed from that when it's demonstrated to still be a big reason as of why the faction exist.
You entire argument about being peaceful or violent is sort of irrelevant because the faction doesn't exist or is needed for the purpose of being peaceful or violent. The factions existence is there to be a home for those who are forsaken.

I can't make this more clear. You are arguing something that has little to do with my arguments. I agree that they could require a more peaceful leader. Lillian Voss makes sense in that regard.

Two undeads who don't fit the bill of being forsaken in the first place doesn't make sense and kills the identity for the sole purpose of the faction to even exist.

That's literally what I've been saying. You're the one that said their identity is lost when really it isn't. They just have a new leader who won't cater to their emo side and might progress them in a different light.

[Irian]

Uhm, did you forget about Putress in WotLK? Even in Hillsbrand Foothills there is a quest where Warden Stillwater directly opposes Sylvanas.

Most of the Forsaken are vicious cunts anyway, it is not like Sylvanas orders them to be sadistic maniacs. She never really cared as long as they succeed.

That's why I specifically said splinter faction and group dissent. I'm not implying Sylvanas has anything in the way of mind control, but I am saying that Forsaken have spent most of their existence being shepherded by someone who simply wanted to throw them at whoever opposed her.

It might be a part of the whole Forsaken package to be a sadistic asshole, which is why I'm actually genuinely interested in what will happen to the faction now. Calia is not that at all and I hope we actually see some interesting changes and possibly a split between loyalist Forsaken and new-age Forsaken who want to reclaim some semblance of humanity.

[Kumorii]

That's literally what I've been saying. You're the one that said their identity is lost when really it isn't. They just have a new leader who won't cater to their emo side and might progress them in a different light.

Guess we just disagree. You say their identity isn't lost when really it is.

[Highelf]

Dude, how long did that take you to do? The only thing that is missing from their "identity" is the slaughtering and blighting. Everything else is still there.

They're the race that directly was responsible for the murder of thousands.

[StillMcfuu]

Fucking gag...

Forsaken new leader is now a person who isn't a Forsaken, doesn't know a damn thing about what they went through, and the one point she had to make an impact on the forsaken (meeting between Forsaken/Humans) she hid her identity like a scared little girl.

[Dch48]

The Forsaken never really wanted to be part of the Horde. They still thought of themselves as humans and would have gladly fought at their side. Humans however, especially the Paladins and their ilk considered all undead to be monstrous abominations who needed to be exterminated. The Forsaken joined the Horde for survival. A marriage of convenience and always an uneasy relationship. The Orcs hated them too but saw them as reinforcements in the fight against the Alliance. Now things have changed and after the corruption and subsequent insanity of Sylvanas, Calia seems like the perfect choice to lead them into the new world they find themselves in.

[Highelf]

Guess we just disagree. You say their identity isn't lost when really it is.

You just said yourself that their identity is still there. They still feel "forsaken" YOU said that, not me. They have long been a merciless race that slaughters innocents, poisons things around them, concocts new ways to painfully kill or "turn" people.

[Mehrunes]

Under Sylvanas's orders. Doing things on behalf of the Forsaken ruled by Sylvanas. Acting on behalf of the faction created and ruled by Sylvanas. Do I need to spell this out more? Or are you seriously trying to imply that Forsaken without Sylvanas in their immediate vicinity aren't still acting on behalf of Sylvanas?

Do give a source that an Apothecary expedition tasked by Sylvanas with developing the Blight was ordered by her to kill those Druids. Do you seriously think Sylvanas had to give her go ahead on every single thing the Forsaken have ever done? In that case, have fun explaining Edge of Night where Lydon tried to convince Garrosh to let them use the Blight when Sylvanas wasn't even a part of the campaign in Gilneas yet.

Until now there has never been a sign of a splinter faction or any group dissent within the Forsaken. At best we had the events in Before the Storm and Sylvanas killed them all. If you genuinely think Forsaken all acted independently and there was no level of fanatical worship within the Forsaken you're either delusional or just being obtuse for the sake of it.

Aside form multiple Forsaken that left to Argent Dawn or other factions, at least one of who explicitly stated his dislike of Sylvanas' direction as the reason. Or Stillwater. Or Putress and his Apothecaries. Or the Forsaken that defected to the Kirin Tor in Vanilla. Jesus Christ... And two of those examples are people who went beyond Sylvanas in their actions, meshing really well with what you said in the first paragraph.