Horde Striving Not To Be Warmongering = Horde Dead?

[Syegfryed]

It’s a progress thing. You can’t stay the prosecuted underdog when you have a force comparable or larger then your enemy. By wrath the horde is an equal match for the alliance which means it can only progress from being an underdog. So then you have to pick, one side either needs to go lol evil or one side needs to start wanting to expand.

ths seems too much arbitrary with just 8 or 80 choices, neither i see this mess as progress

If both sides just want to have happy fun times the war ends and you have two peaceful alliances.

meaning bf was a mistake

Anything. Even new furries race or Goblin is better right now than orc.[ One thing i really like on new lore is that orcs are no longer main race of Horde.

see? you can't complain when this is your mentality, the horde start to be shit exactly to please the ones like you, and we are in this shit place directly because of those decisions

the orcs are horde, like the alliance is humans, they created the factions, when you want to erase then it become this nonsense

No because i don't like this race but because their have their spotlight for more than 8 years.

every other race had spotlight under thrall and even under Garrosh reign, even more than now with multicultural and happy horde, don't know the problem you guys have

By that logic, no one owns any land,

by logic, all land is troll land, the pointis they take from someone else by conquest,and it was happening with then

and the dwarf excavations in "Horde" territory are no more aggressive than the orc's attacks on Ashenvale.

the difference is the orcs are getting resources to not starve and die, and are only defending thenselves from the elves attacks, who refuse the trade, the dwarves are digging for giggles killing taurens in the process

Given that the discussion was about Alliance being more of the aggressor than Horde in Classic and you seem to favor the Horde in your posts, this seems an odd stance to take. I feel like I'm missing something regarding your argument here.

the alliance was more of the aggressors, even in ashenvale they attacked first again, even after the 3 war.

[Miseration]

Ugh, agree its absolutely pitiful.

[Goldielocks]

Ironically enough if you ask an Alliance fan who got the better end of the deal by the end of BFA they'd say the Horde came out on top. It's shit like this that makes it impossible to take pro Horde and pro Alliance arguments seriously. I've seen a few threads about this on MMO champ already.

Fact of the matter is that MMO storytelling creates this phenomenon. When you can't satisfy either side you satisfy nobody.

[Mirishka]

Ironically enough if you ask an Alliance fan who got the better end of the deal by the end of BFA they'd say the Horde came out on top. It's shit like this that makes it impossible to take pro Horde and pro Alliance arguments seriously. I've seen a few threads about this on MMO champ already.

Fact of the matter is that MMO storytelling creates this phenomenon. When you can't satisfy either side you satisfy nobody.

Not everyone on either side is a OMGHARDCORE FACTIONZ fanboi whose blood pressure elevates at even the slightest apparent disparity between the factions.

[Darththeo]

Lor'themar entire character is "My actions and choices are to insure that the Sin'dorei will survive." Loyalty to the Horde, to a warchief is secondary to that. So, staying loyal to Garrosh or Sylvanas meant certain death for his people, so as he cannot betray his people, he betrays the Warchief. Seriously, Lor'themar has been very clear where his loyalties lie. If you are surprised he turned on Sylvanas, you never paid attention to his character.

Baine was well Baine. I honestly miss his father, but we can't get him back.

Also, don't we have this topic like already?

[Nathasil]

I always chuckle when this "He's a traitor! He broke his oath to the Warchief!!!" comes up for anybody a Horde-Fanboy decides not to like, when Sylvanas clearly and openly broke her oath to the Horde and Warchief MANY times and Garrosh broke it when eating Old God Goo. But that does not count, because when Sylvanas and Garrosh turned traitor,they were still killing Alliance and while you are killing Alliance you are cool and cannot possibly be a traitor to the Horde.

This is the main problem of the Horde, by the way: It has no motive except "Let's hate the Alliance". The common motive of the Alliance is to believe in peace, cooperation and (most of all) common defense of their homelands. Now, the Alliance totally sucks and fails at all of that, but it is still there. What is the common motive of the Horde that is INDEPENDANT of the Alliance? Common respect? Nope. Believe in peace/war/cooperation? Nope. Same believes? Nope. Common defense? No.

The only thing that defines the Horde is "We hate the Alliance!" - which is not true for most of the races in the Horde and never was, but somehow this is what fans attributed to it and obviously wre fine with.

[Nadiru]

Lor'themar entire character is "My actions and choices are to insure that the Sin'dorei will survive." Loyalty to the Horde, to a warchief is secondary to that. So, staying loyal to Garrosh or Sylvanas meant certain death for his people, so as he cannot betray his people, he betrays the Warchief. Seriously, Lor'themar has been very clear where his loyalties lie. If you are surprised he turned on Sylvanas, you never paid attention to his character.

Baine was well Baine. I honestly miss his father, but we can't get him back.

Also, don't we have this topic like already?

Why do people miss Cairne? Is it really just because he's in WC3?

[Steelcryo]

This is the exact same problem of Game of Thrones, they know where the story eventually has to be and those points could make perfect sense if the connecting material would be good.

This! This is exactly what I think is the problem. They have all these great stories to tell, but forget the details in the middle. Each expansion is planned on key points they want to hit and often they seem to bounce from point to point without much being filled in in the middle.

A GoT comparison is perfect here because they had the exact same problem. On paper, Dani going all nuts and killing everyone made perfect sense, except in practice, it felt super forced. This was because they rushed it, you could see exactly the reasons they were giving for her change of character, but didn't give it time to settle and feel natural. The same thing happened with Sylvannas. All the reasons they've given for her doing what she did are sound reasons, but there's not middle part for us to see her move from character type A to character type B. It's just "Here she is doing one thing" "Now here she is doing another thing because of X".

This seems to have permeated a lot of BfA. I can't give detailed examples on the Horde side because I haven't played it, but overall from what I've seen of the cinematics, each characters motivations make sense, they just aren't given detail and context. Which frankly leaves you with a bunch of Horde leaders that feel wasted and boring. The Alliance leaders aren't much better. Anduin, while sticking true to his character of wanting peace and unity, just feels like a cliche come to life, Genn is a broken record that's slowly stopping playing, and Tyrande, while interesting, again has the issue of jumping from plot point to plot point with little detail in between.

Unfortunately I think this is a problem with the genre. To keep things interesting each expansion, devs feel they have to go bigger than the previous, which means more complex and grand stories. Eventually you're bound to get to a point where those stories just can't be told in the amount of time and budget they have. So things get rushed, details get skipped and it all feels very forced and unnatural.

[Darththeo]

Why do people miss Cairne? Is it really just because he's in WC3?

That and unlike Baine when he disagreed with what a Warchief was doing he actually stood up to said Warchief.

[Darththeo]

Did he not stand up to Sylvanas by helping Derek escape?

And that was how long after he realized that Sylvanas was leading the Horde to ruin?

[Kyphael]

let's bend the knee to the sister of the lich king.

Damn right, and LIKE IT!

[Darththeo]

I'm not sure what you want me to say? Days? Weeks? Months?

He was disillusioned with Sylvanas during this expansion, he stood up to her in a patch in this expansion.

Yes, but he was disillusioned at least since Undercity and it took rezzing a dead Alliance character for him to do anything? When Garrosh was Warchief, Cairne didn't like his ideals and challenged him then and there. He didn't wait.

[Th3Scourge]

Yeah the Horde is finished. I've always felt separate to the Horde playing as an Undead and Blood Elf so I'm kinda glad it's fallen apart

[bloodmoth13]

My only hope for the story is that tyrande comes to orgrimmar and the sentinels slaughter the entire council. every one of them. calia, thrall, baine, rokhan, lorthemar and all the allied race leaders leaving thrall last, make him regret peace.

All of them. Fuck em. they aint horde, there is no horde, let some new characters rise up and lead the races of the horde, the old ones have already been murdered beyond repair.

my entire hopes for the story rest on tyrande, i hope she does a good job

[Darththeo]

When do you think Baine had an opportune time to challenge Sylvanas? Should he have squared up in the throne room of Lordaeron while the Alliance were at their door?

Or perhaps he should've duked it out with her while he was needed elsewhere in order to secure new allies in the wake of losing a large portion of their troops?

After Undercity, before Undercity if he felt it after Tel'drissil, before she sent people in to free Talanji, etc? The only allies he help were Highmountain who were recruited lorewise prior to the War of Thrones, iirc and Zandalari. He had plenty of times to actively oppose Sylvanas before Derek.

[bloodmoth13]

Ironically enough if you ask an Alliance fan who got the better end of the deal by the end of BFA they'd say the Horde came out on top. It's shit like this that makes it impossible to take pro Horde and pro Alliance arguments seriously. I've seen a few threads about this on MMO champ already.

Fact of the matter is that MMO storytelling creates this phenomenon. When you can't satisfy either side you satisfy nobody.

Both sides got shafted. Alliance lost more and never really won anything other than killing the zandalari's king, while the horde lost 2 important heroes and had its entire identity raped to death.
Horde i think definitely had it worse. MUCH worse. Alliance can just ignore this expansion and pretend it never happened, the horde on the other hand will NEVER recover from this travesty.

[Darththeo]

WHY before Undercity? Nothing points to him being disillusioned by the burning of Teldrassil, and even if he were, why would he challenge his commander in chief before a siege of a major settlement(Lordaeron)?

WHEN after Undercity? He was needed as a diplomat to Zandalar to secure new allies, in the next patch the Alliance laid siege to the city

These weren't all events that happened day after day, you know. We don't see the full story.

[Grythletubs]

"boohoo horde aren't going to be genocidal maniacs anymore"

[Kithelle]

Just packed and left...I guess helping save the world is just packing and leaving these days.

Like him or not being Green Jesus, he was Green Jesus...so no, he didn't just pack and leave.

[Adam Jensen]

You're calling Baine and Lor'themar "traitors" but they were traitors to a genocidal maniac who used biological weapons against her own city. Sylvannas took the Horde and the Forsaken to an evil place, Baine, Saurfang, Lor'themar and everyone who stood up to that witch understood that.

Fuck Sylvannas. I hope N'zoth tears her apart.