*Spoilers* Tyrande's reaction to end of 4th war

[Greengrim]

And this my dear friends is why the title of "High King" stands. I said this in another thread which touched on its purpose. Tyrande and Genn are just way too unstable. If not for Anduin, they'll just create more chaos in between the Horde and Alliance, which is completely needless now more than ever.

[Mehrunes]

At that point, the Alliance believes that the Horde abandoned them to die at the Broken Shore.

The Alliance believed that because they contorted themselves and jumped to the conclusions they wanted to reach. There's no actual data supporting that line of thought among the Alliance.

[Darththeo]

BuT vEnGeAnCe Is NeVeR rAtIoNaL!!!1one

Because it isn't rational. I don't see why that concept seems beyond you because you just agree with the outcome doesn't make it rational.

You have to show how the person rationalizes their actions to themselves to make it written well.

Seriously, this isn't a hard concept. But what do I know, you actually secretly like the shitty writing so you have something to whine about.

[Thalassian Bob]

The Horde is gonna be lead be a coalition? Coalition governments are almost universally shit.

[Rune B]

Tyrande is clearly going to the dark side WITH Sylvanas, either as a pawn of death playing into their hands, or to the void. Perhaps the third death refers to her.

[Darththeo]

The hate for Tyrande is unreal, people calling her ''Irrational'' and ''blinded by revenge'' are some of the most naive,inexperienced hypocrites around.
Emotions,even dark ones are not a bad thing, stop trying to sprinkle ''rational'' in your arguments,these are Night Elves in a fantasy medieval setting not the United Nations nor vulcan bible ! Have you never been hurt personally and wanted to get back at the other person??You know you have, so now imagine having your people killed and burnt,genocided, your lands invaded, your capital city destroyed, one of the worlds greatest heroes almost killed ! even if Sylvanas gets the Kerrigan treatment the Horde are still guilty !

Anduin's peace = the Horde pays no reparation,no justice done, no revenge achieved, he literally gets thousands killed without seeking punishment for the Horde. He is a naive child and most people that support him are not living in the real world.

Having Tyrande agree with Anduin= bad writing.
This expansion is doing a great job at portraying her the same way she was in WC3, a great leader,stubborn and strong, a powerful Amazonian Priestess.

No one was ever arguing that irrational = bad. Just how they are handling Tyrande's irrationality = bad.
Anduin is being irrational, but his irrationality was well within character and therefor is better.

No one was ever arguing anything that you are suggesting.

Does anyone actually ever read in this topic?

Look how Genn handled Anduin vs Tyrande with Anduin. Genn doesn't trust the Horde, Genn wants to kill Sylvanas, but Genn doesn't go off on Anduin talking about how he will have his vengeance. He doesn't walk out the door following Tyrande.

You can write Tyrande better AND keep everything they are trying to do.

[Mehrunes]

I mean what we are saying here is:

This quest that both factions do with different outcomes is canon to the Alliance because then it legitimizes a Horde grievance
This other quest in the same area that you will mostly encounter while doing the previous quest which again both factions do with different outcomes is canon to the Horde because if it was canon to the Alliance it would lessen the impact of a Horde grievance

Bias much?

Mind you, this is not on you, it's on Blizzard. It's not nearly as bad as the War of Thorns and then Genn's speech in BoD only at least in the latter true it was pretty clear which side was seeing what actually happened.

First of all, even if the Fate of Queen's Reprisal Alliance quest was canon, it wouldn't lessed the impact of a Horde grievance because nothing in the journal found in that quest actually justifies Alliance attack in Stormheim. Sylvanas being out for some power in Stormheim wasn't Alliance's business. They had no holdings in Stormheim at the time, they had no allies in Stormheim at the time. And since they aren't the Azerothian police either, the issue of Stormheim and Sylvanas' plans for it fell entirely out of their jurisdiction.

Secondly, you're comparing apples to oranges here. The Fate of the Queen's Reprisal has different conclusion for each faction, with those conclusions being mutually exclusive with each other. Shipwrecked Sailors does not suffer from the same issue. As such there's no obstacle for both factions to have done it. So add misrepresentation to false equivalency here. The idea represented in @mickybrighteyes's post is that both factions could have done Shipwrecked Sailors just fine, not that it's just the Alliance that did it. While the claim about The Fate of Queen's Reprisal, that you also misrepresented, is that there's no proof which version is canon, not that the Horde one is. For all we know it's neither because Blizzard scrapped zone progression in favor of "choose your own adventure" leveling scheme and they simply forgot to scrap that quest.

Finally, the second aspect of why your comparison here is a false equivalency is that the idea that Alliance got the ledger in their version of The Fate of Queen's Reprisal and that's why they attacked the Horde in Stormheim does not mesh with the Alliance questline in Stormheim, because in that questline Genn himself says multiple times he has no clue what Sylvanas is after in the zone even long after the attack. There's nothing that would contradict the possibility of Alliance killing Forsaken crew members in their version of the Shipwrecked Sailors quest.

[mickybrighteyes]

I mean what we are saying here is:

This quest that both factions do with different outcomes is canon to the Alliance because then it legitimizes a Horde grievance
This other quest in the same area that you will mostly encounter while doing the previous quest which again both factions do with different outcomes is canon to the Horde because if it was canon to the Alliance it would lessen the impact of a Horde grievance

Bias much?

Mind you, this is not on you, it's on Blizzard. It's not nearly as bad as the War of Thorns and then Genn's speech in BoD only at least in the latter true it was pretty clear which side was seeing what actually happened.

The problem with the quests we're talking about is that they don't reference each other, there's no additional information linking them and no following on dialogue about them at all.

There's no real reason to breadcrumb you into finding these quests in a specific order and no additional prerequisite quests to force some semblance of order.

[Moldevort]

Sorry Tyrande but I lost any respect I had for you after the embarrassing "MALFURIOOOON WHERE ARE YOU MY LOOOVE?!" at Val'Sharah.

[Shiza]

No one was ever arguing that irrational = bad. Just how they are handling Tyrande's irrationality = bad.
Anduin is being irrational, but his irrationality was well within character and therefor is better.

No one was ever arguing anything that you are suggesting.

Does anyone actually ever read in this topic?

Look how Genn handled Anduin vs Tyrande with Anduin. Genn doesn't trust the Horde, Genn wants to kill Sylvanas, but Genn doesn't go off on Anduin talking about how he will have his vengeance. He doesn't walk out the door following Tyrande.

You can write Tyrande better AND keep everything they are trying to do.

Why should Tyrande be nice towards a toxic nazi? We are talking about a man who trivializes genocide and portrays women who want justice for the genocide inflicted on their people as mentally unstable.

Anduin is objectively Truscum.

[allawyn]

Are you talking about the Kaufman or Morgenthau plans when you are talking about killing german plans? Because these were the most extreme plans for what to do after an allied victory against germany and neither of them included killing babys and they were actually rather fringe ideas never considered to become actual policy. It's a Nazi dogwhistle that is used to legitimize Germany not capitulating and prolonging the war in europe as well as to present the allies was just as bad as the Axis. The same with the firebombing of Dresden. The commonly quoted numbers of victims are often extravagated, in reality it where at maximum 25k. And the attacks weren't executed to kill germans for the lolz or for vengeance or anything, Dresden was a military target due to its role as an industrial city which supplied the Wehrmacht.



Not really. Anti-Semitism was always present in german but also the broader european culture and it is to this day. It is deeply ingrained into the culture, just as militarism was an atmost important part of german culture at this time, due to the heavy prussian influence. We shouldn't forget that Germany voluntarily decided to stand with austria when the austrian heir to the throne was murdered by some fringe serbian seperatist and austria just wanted to invade serbia for it. Germany is not some helpless victim in WWI and when people talk about the treaty of Versailles, they ignore that Germany just a couple of decades earlier inflicted a by far greater humiliation of france after their victory in the franco-prussian war. And to be honest, your attempts to paint germany as a victim during WWII when it was the perpetrator of the worst genocides in history makes your whole argument come off like an alt-right dogwhistle.

Let us not forget, that this was the first and only time Sylvanas suffered an unprovoked attack, by an Alliance Leader whose nation she still occupied despite a truce. Genn as the King of Gilneas can't start any unprovoked attack against Sylvanas when she started a war that she herself never ended.

Especially since Teldrassil as a nation had nothing to do with this attack, it was an attack by Gilneas with the support of Stormwind forces. Her answer was a genocide of the Night Elves.



You know that after WWII, Germany was not a fully souvereign nation up until the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany back in 1990? Only when East and West Germany re-united, Germany became a fully souvereign nation again. This is only 29 years ago. For most of its history, the federal republic of germany, the current german state, was not a souvereign nation. It lost a shit-ton of its territory, perpetrators of the genocide were executed, we had to pay reparations and germany had to go through a hugh cultural shift, the holocaust impacts german identity, culture and politics to this day. For four years after the war, germany as a nation didn't exist, the federal republic and the democratic republic both were only founded in 1949, the current german army, the Bundeswehr, was only funded 10 years after the war, in between germany had no army.

In contrast, in both of its defeats the Horde suffers no negative consequences for its genocidal actions, nobody is punished for his or her crimes, the only ones who are are loyalists, not a single perpetrator of any war crime and in both cases the Horde got to keep any and all conquered territory.

Saurfang, a war criminal who was one of the leaders of both first war, which had the goal of commiting a genocide against humans, dwarves and high elves and of both the night elven and the draenei genocide who openly admitted to have personally slaughtered Draenei children is celeberated as a martyr and symbol of honor. Children inside the Horde learn that Saurfang, the Man who slaughtered frightened little Draenei Children with his own bloody hands and who was one of the core architects of burning alive countless night elf men, women and children, is to be their role model.

At the same time Jaruk Bloodfyre from the Warcraft Manga, an actual orcish hero who tried to help Draenei escape and sacrificed his life fighting the orcish Horde and saving a Draenei Orphan, remains forgotten, with no monument or song honoring the one and only real orcish Hero. The Horde is a disgrace and objectively evil. Tyrande is right in persueing vengeance against them, as long as she only targets soldiers and military personnel, who consciously support a genocidal army.

I'm talking about Freeman Dyson's essay on his time in the British bomber command the attitudes toward killing German babies of those around him.
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/4...-intelligence/

Sylvanas saw her envoys killed, Alliance was killing an hunting her people (both the Scarlet Crusdade, which was not rejected until they killed the _living_, and others as seen in the that short story), she was shown that genocide of her people that would have resulted in their defeat at the hand of the Alliance, then Genn shows up and explicitly tries to kill her and destroy the her, and her people's future. So if you want to excuse Alliance people for their killing of Horde civilians, then you open the door to the converse.

Now, before people try to set up straw man about this, still think Sylvanas' killing of civilians is evil. But then I think the killing of civilians by the Alliance is evil too.

And yes, Blizzard didn't show anyone who committed crimes against except the Syvlanas and Nathanos and they got away. But, as villains, they are already doomed to be killed. You can demand Blizzard also write in that someone else. That is a different subject, but I'll just mention that I think the claim that Alliance players have right to have their story writen at the expense of already suffering Horde players is both unfounded and unworkable. Otherwise, you are left with killing people with no apparent connection. That is evil. Having been wronged is a good backstory to make a villain relatable, but they were still a villain.

Not sure why Saurfang is relevant. Regardless of your take on what moral responsibility one has for what you do after being drugged by the Legion, any guilt by him would hardly make Tyrande more pure. You could argue whether her revenge might extend to him, but then he is dead now.

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1. About the Germany thing: I know my grandfather was imprisoned in Russia as a prisoner of war. They was "denazification" going on, some sort of US-propaganda thing, Germany was occupied for a looong time. We had to pay reparations to several countries. People were tried and executed, but not enough in my opinion.
The real question is: how do you punish an entire country of millions and millions of people?

2. About the Horde trials: There were taurens, blood elves etc. all present in the War of Thorns. There was even a story about Malfurion meeting a blood elf in Ashenvale who clearly stated he hated the nelves for ousting their people 10k years ago. Not to mention Sadfang was the mastermind behind the attack on the nelves, Sylvanas could never have done it without him. Not to mention the Forsaken who are puppets to their waifu. We also don't want to forget the massacre at Brennandan in which you saw Lady Liadrin happily killing healers.

There's plenty the Horde has to stand trial for. Each and every one of them. Switching sides when the deal turns sour doesn't count (looking at you, Lor'themar)

Yes, _Nazis_ were tried and executed. People how had involvement in what the Nazi's did. You keep avoiding my point that the German people were not punished for what other did. And this is what lead to the breaking the chain of wars.

And no, I don't accept that involvement in the War of Thorns represented guilt over Teldrasil. The goal of the war (at least for anyone but Sylvanas) was to capture, not destroy, Teldrasil.

[Darththeo]

Why should Tyrande be nice towards a toxic nazi? We are talking about a man who trivializes genocide and portrays women who want justice for the genocide inflicted on their people as mentally unstable.

Anduin is objectively Truscum.

Where did I say she has to be nice? Seriously, there are other ways of handling it. I used Genn as an example, doesn't mean it is the only way to handle it.

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Yes, _Nazis_ were tried and executed. People how had involvement in what the Nazi's did. You keep avoiding my point that the German people were not punished for what other did. And this is what lead to the breaking the chain of wars.

And no, I don't accept that involvement in the War of Thorns represented guilt over Teldrasil. The goal of the war (at least for anyone but Sylvanas) was to capture, not destroy, Teldrasil.

And to kill either Tyrande or Malfurion, preferably both.
This was known, she uses it as justification on why Teldrassil had to be burned.

[Zyky]

She's right. And they are going to kill her.

More and more we're witnessing the End Time dungeon scenarios.

[UnluckyAmateur]

Its about fucking time, although she does sound like she's going full sith lord though.

[allawyn]

And to kill either Tyrande or Malfurion, preferably both.
This was known, she uses it as justification on why Teldrassil had to be burned.

Killing enemy leaders is an accepted part of war. Just ask Alleria.

And _Sylvanas_ uses it as a justification for Burning Teldrasil.

[Feanoro]

I think the claim that Alliance players have right to have their story writen at the expense of already suffering Horde players is both unfounded and unworkable.

So then we can assume you're equally displeased at how the Horde story has been at the expense of the Alliance players for years now?

[allawyn]

So then we can assume you're equally displeased at how the Horde story has been at the expense of the Alliance players for years now?

Well, I don't think much of your characterization. For a long time Blizzard has only written the Horde, in neutral content, as followers for Alliance lore characters or, in the faction conflicts, as the source of villians.

Now I won't be shocked if you have a Horde bias" meme to push. But we have heard it all before. As to the point here. I do, in fact, not like how Blizzard pits the factions against each other instead of offering compelling writing. That has been good writting for either side. Though I have to say that the side that seems to think that writing should be fixed at the expense of players who have paid the same amount of money is the Alliance fanatics. (Though, to be fair to Alliance players as a whole, I think these are a minority.)

[Rozz]

Lets not conflate fictional politics with irl Nazism and forbidden discussions.

[Arrashi]

Why should Tyrande be nice towards a toxic nazi? We are talking about a man who trivializes genocide and portrays women who want justice for the genocide inflicted on their people as mentally unstable.

Anduin is objectively Truscum.

Now thats a buzzword combo if i ever saw one. Man i hate those toxic nazis, they give bad name to all nice nazi.

[Feanoro]

Well, I don't think much of your characterization. For a long time Blizzard has only written the Horde, in neutral content, as followers for Alliance lore characters or, in the faction conflicts, as the source of villians.

Now I won't be shocked if you have a Horde bias" meme to push. But we have heard it all before. As to the point here. I do, in fact, not like how Blizzard pits the factions against each other instead of offering compelling writing. That has been good writting for either side. Though I have to say that the side that seems to think that writing should be fixed at the expense of players who have paid the same amount of money is the Alliance fanatics. (Though, to be fair to Alliance players as a whole, I think these are a minority.)

No, this wasn't bait or pushing an agenda; I wanted to know what you thought. Not going to claim I don't think there's Horde bias, as my post history would disprove that, but my goal is both sides having good writing without one side paying for the other. That doesn't mean both sides must receive the exact same thing, e.g. Alliance guy X dies so Horde equivalent dies.