Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[burzian]

I think that's an unfair summation. You can't really just kick the entire economy from a capitalist basis into a purely socialist one, not without massive societal upheaval and a totalitarian approach. Pushing forward step by step against the capitalist tide, until you reach a point where the shift is no longer drastic, is a perfectly feasible approach, and one that involves a lot less societal upheaval. It takes longer, but it's more stable and less likely to result in poor policy frameworks (as you have time to adjust as you go).

I don't agree. I didn't say anywhere we'd flip a switch and have a "purely socialist" system. Not sure where you grabbed that from. Everyone understands this is step-by-step, and Warren's steps are almost universally weaker. I believe she's weaker as a candidate too. You can't make even incremental change by asking for incremental change -- it's almost like we've learned nothing in the last decade or so. We need a candidate willing to go hard at the big goals at all levels to push us towards them. Warren ain't that candidate.

Bernie will be Obama V2.0, or Trump V2.0 with that attitude. As Bernie won't get down ballot votes enough to get congress. Without congress his agenda is shit.

Nor will a down ballot congress be much for his agenda more likely than not. While Warren can probably get them for hers.

Disagree. The path to real change is through labor organizing -- not through Obama-style compromise and incremental change. Bernie campaigns and organizes for down-ballot candidates more than anyone, and is on record saying that the organizing does not end when he's elected. Warren has no such plans and will govern the same way Obama did, sticking us in the mud for another 8 years (if we're lucky).

[Edge-]

https://www.newsweek.com/fox-news-ai...source=Twitter

Don't worry guys, Fox News found the perfect person to criticize Sanders and Warren.

Jordan Belfort.

I didn't know who that was either, so it's understandable if you're raising an eyebrow. He's the guy this movie is based on -



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Belfort

[kaelleria]

First bit of post debate polling is out -
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...-october-poll/
Buttigieg and Klobuchar did well compared to their favoribility.

The race still is about who can beat Trump.

[Gestopft]

The new deal coalition is extremely interesting in it's make up. Both with how politically shaped it is. Roosevelt was aware of how disfavoured African-Americans was in it, however would probably have had the bill(s) dead in the water if tenant farmers were included in the farm bill.

Would he have liked to help that community more? Yes, probably. Else he wouldn't have let Elanore help them as much as she did from the white house. (Probably). Could he? No, since he knew he'd lose the southern half of his party and not gain enough republican votes.
Say what you want about his administrations. And his way of handling his cabinet. He knew where the steak was cooked, and how.

Something progressives in the US today have no fucking idea of. They need to seriously study TR, WW, and FDR administrations and what big policies were enacted under those progressive giants. (They won't, but one can wish).

This is sort of something that I think the entire Democratic Party needs to realize (different wings of the party for different reasons): The "middle voter" is a bit socially conservative, but center-left to left economically. The actual "middle voter" is going to be much more scared of Beto's mandatory gun buyback or Castro's approach to immigration than to Warren's "accountable capitalism" or any of their labor plans. This is also why some candidates like Yang or Gabbard have fringe appeal to some right-wingers. Added to that, there is a big fracture happening on the right between free-market doctrinaires and "populists." Remember Tucker Carlson complimenting Warren on how she talks about the economy? Some populist economics is the way to reach out to swing voters, not just "going to the middle" on everything.

Of course, the party's big money and corporate donors are the opposite of the actual "middle voter."

[Blade Wolf]

What's so ridiculous about wanting a plan is that she literally has 90 seconds...you don't have the ability to explain a comprehensive plan without it getting twisted to hell. Get rid of like 8 of those people and maybe then you will.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/stephen-...arren-refused/

This is Bernie explaining his Medicare for all plan in a short concise and to the point manner. It's not hard if you have a well thought out plan and how to execute it but she doesn't

[Themius]

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/stephen-...arren-refused/

This is Bernie explaining his Medicare for all plan in a short concise and to the point manner. It's not hard if you have a well thought out plan and how to execute it but she doesn't

Which I feel is a failure because again it doesn't go into detail all everyone hears, is "taxes go up" and instantly you have lost people they don't give a shit what your plan is, and if cost overall are down, all they will focus on is the initial portion of the sentence.

[SirBeef]

Too many people talking, no real info. What a pathetic excuse for a debate.

This is not a debate, this is a TV show starring people too ugly to get a job in Hollywood.

Blame the moderation not the debaters. They just follow what they are given.

[Skroe]

Thank god these primary debates barely matter, because seriously, many more like this, and Donald Trump will easily win a second term. And that goes for the LGBT town hall too.

If you want to defeat Donald Trump, the strategy is to shut the fuck up about things actually important to you, appeal to surburban women and white men in about 6 or 7 specific states (you know the list), and message only about the following

(1) Donald Trump is corrupt, an unindicted criminal, and self deals (Ukraine, G7, etc).
(2) Trump is helping his rich friends get richer at the expensive of YOUR FAMILY.
(3) Trump is allowing ISIS to resurge and Russia to get stronger
(4) A second term of Donald Trump will be a disaster for your healthcare, retirement, job and kids.
(5) Do you really want another 4 years of the exhausting "Donald Trump show?"

That's it. No gun issues. No LGBT issues. No environmental issues. Nothing. Keep in simple and you win.

All that gun stuff. LGBT stuff. Environmental stuff.... you do that when you win. You do that without telling anybody you're going to do it.

This nonsense of wearing your progressive beliefs on your sleave? If it doesn't stop before long, Donald Trump will coast to a second term. Progressives, being strategically stupid about how to beat the easiest-to-beat President in memory will not understand why.

I'll tell you why.

Be like a Republican.
You don't tell people your ideas when you're running for office. You feed them platitudes, and then do whatever you want once you win.

For the love of god, spare us from Trump II, and execute the motherfucking strat.

Oh and one more thing, the November debate better be just Warren, Biden, Bernie and Harris. It's time for everybody else to go. Enough fooling around.

[Somewhatconcerned]

Thank god these primary debates barely matter, because seriously, many more like this, and Donald Trump will easily win a second term. And that goes for the LGBT town hall too.

If you want to defeat Donald Trump, the strategy is to shut the fuck up about things actually important to you, appeal to surburban women and white men in about 6 or 7 specific states (you know the list), and message only about the following

(1) Donald Trump is corrupt, an unindicted criminal, and self deals (Ukraine, G7, etc).
(2) Trump is helping his rich friends get richer at the expensive of YOUR FAMILY.
(3) Trump is allowing ISIS to resurge and Russia to get stronger
(4) A second term of Donald Trump will be a disaster for your healthcare, retirement, job and kids.
(5) Do you really want another 4 years of the exhausting "Donald Trump show?"

That's it. No gun issues. No LGBT issues. No environmental issues. Nothing. Keep in simple and you win.

All that gun stuff. LGBT stuff. Environmental stuff.... you do that when you win. You do that without telling anybody you're going to do it.

This nonsense of wearing your progressive beliefs on your sleave? If it doesn't stop before long, Donald Trump will coast to a second term. Progressives, being strategically stupid about how to beat the easiest-to-beat President in memory will not understand why.

I'll tell you why.

Be like a Republican.
You don't tell people your ideas when you're running for office. You feed them platitudes, and then do whatever you want once you win.

For the love of god, spare us from Trump II, and execute the motherfucking strat.

Oh and one more thing, the November debate better be just Warren, Biden, Bernie and Harris. It's time for everybody else to go. Enough fooling around.

Spot on.

Save the fringe policies for later.

[Skroe]

Spot on.

Save the fringe policies for later.

I will vote for any Democrat. Hell, as a Massachusetts resident, I've already voted for Elizabeth Warren (in 2018) for Senator. I will vote for any Democrat. But my vote does not matter, because I am a Massachusetts resident, and Massachusetts will vote for a Tomato with a D on it when it comes to President. My vote against Trump is a moral vote. By rights, I can stay home election day and jerk off all day.

And maybe I should, because going blind and not being able to see the unfolding disaster the current course lays out will be better than seeing it happen.

Progressives will give Donald Trump a second term, and not even realize how. And the "how" is rather than sitting down, sitting the fuck up and being a team player, executing a strat they all KNOW is the strat, which is to do whatever it takes to just get enough Wisconsite Rubes to vote for Warren, Biden or Bernie... they'll instead feel like they achieved something by having all 12 Democratic candidates go down the row and give them a nice "you matter to me *wink*" pat on the ass.

LGBT issues... boy did Elizabeth Warren really step into it at that town hall, first with that answer about one-man-one woman, and then with that woman and her 9 year old transgendered kid. The point isn't to be "right". The point is the engage in cynical politics and score more points (votes) in the states that matter in the electoral college.

How'd Elizabeth Warrens' response at that town hell help her in suburban Wisconsin? Or Central Pennsylvania. How did Bernies socialist screeds pick up General election voters in Virgina, which Democrats cannot lose? And can someone please wake up Joe Biden to actually say something not nice about Donald Trump, one of these days?

Frankly, I want to abudct the three of them, and Mayor Pete too, and put them into some kind of cellular fusion device where we have someone who looks (white, Male, ) and has the General election Strategy like Biden, is the age of Mayor Pete, has the wonkish side of Warren, and the crowd pleasing talent of Bernie. Hell that's the entire problem. The Megazord candidate is the one who beats Trump. The issue right now is that the individual Zords are probably going to get individually stomped by Fat Orange Lord Zedd.

Christ in heaven Democrats, be cynically political just this once. I promise. You can go back to being your adorably political naive selves after Trump is in chains.

[kaelleria]

Thank god these primary debates barely matter, because seriously, many more like this, and Donald Trump will easily win a second term. And that goes for the LGBT town hall too.

If you want to defeat Donald Trump, the strategy is to shut the fuck up about things actually important to you, appeal to surburban women and white men in about 6 or 7 specific states (you know the list), and message only about the following

(1) Donald Trump is corrupt, an unindicted criminal, and self deals (Ukraine, G7, etc).
(2) Trump is helping his rich friends get richer at the expensive of YOUR FAMILY.
(3) Trump is allowing ISIS to resurge and Russia to get stronger
(4) A second term of Donald Trump will be a disaster for your healthcare, retirement, job and kids.
(5) Do you really want another 4 years of the exhausting "Donald Trump show?"

That's it. No gun issues. No LGBT issues. No environmental issues. Nothing. Keep in simple and you win.

All that gun stuff. LGBT stuff. Environmental stuff.... you do that when you win. You do that without telling anybody you're going to do it.

This nonsense of wearing your progressive beliefs on your sleave? If it doesn't stop before long, Donald Trump will coast to a second term. Progressives, being strategically stupid about how to beat the easiest-to-beat President in memory will not understand why.

I'll tell you why.

Be like a Republican.
You don't tell people your ideas when you're running for office. You feed them platitudes, and then do whatever you want once you win.

For the love of god, spare us from Trump II, and execute the motherfucking strat.

Oh and one more thing, the November debate better be just Warren, Biden, Bernie and Harris. It's time for everybody else to go. Enough fooling around.

Buttigieg over Harris. She's pretty much toast at this point.

[Thekri]

Thank god these primary debates barely matter, because seriously, many more like this, and Donald Trump will easily win a second term. And that goes for the LGBT town hall too.

If you want to defeat Donald Trump, the strategy is to shut the fuck up about things actually important to you, appeal to surburban women and white men in about 6 or 7 specific states (you know the list), and message only about the following

(1) Donald Trump is corrupt, an unindicted criminal, and self deals (Ukraine, G7, etc).
(2) Trump is helping his rich friends get richer at the expensive of YOUR FAMILY.
(3) Trump is allowing ISIS to resurge and Russia to get stronger
(4) A second term of Donald Trump will be a disaster for your healthcare, retirement, job and kids.
(5) Do you really want another 4 years of the exhausting "Donald Trump show?"

That's it. No gun issues. No LGBT issues. No environmental issues. Nothing. Keep in simple and you win.

All that gun stuff. LGBT stuff. Environmental stuff.... you do that when you win. You do that without telling anybody you're going to do it.

This nonsense of wearing your progressive beliefs on your sleave? If it doesn't stop before long, Donald Trump will coast to a second term. Progressives, being strategically stupid about how to beat the easiest-to-beat President in memory will not understand why.

I'll tell you why.

Be like a Republican.
You don't tell people your ideas when you're running for office. You feed them platitudes, and then do whatever you want once you win.

For the love of god, spare us from Trump II, and execute the motherfucking strat.

You know, as a former republican myself, I find it pretty upsetting that your solution for the Democratic party is to be more like the Republican Party. You know, the party that got so corrupt and self absorbed that it betrayed the entire nation while employing a con artist to scam the entire population of the US. That Republican party. You think they should be like that.

That self-righteousness is important. That transparency about what they want to do is important, that being better then their opposition is important. That "Win at all costs" mantra is the republicans, and it has led them to a very dark place.

Fuck your "Win at all costs" attitude, there is always a price too great to pay. If we turn to that sort of politics now we will never get this country back.

Oh and one more thing, the November debate better be just Warren, Biden, Bernie and Harris. It's time for everybody else to go. Enough fooling around.

Yeah that I agree with. Only maybe drop Harris. And Bernie should really drop out, but he won't.

[Skroe]

Buttigieg over Harris. She's pretty much toast at this point.

Sure. Whatever. 3 not 4 candidates in that case.

A gay mayor is isn't even 40 yet is not going to be able to carry all the states needed to beat Donald Trump's $1.5-$2 billion General Election campaign. So he's a waste of time and space too.

He's, yet again, another candidate Democrats have fallen in love with because he has a good looking CV, speaks well, and is telegenic.

But that is not the point.

You win the election by appealing to just enough late-middle age surburban women and white working class men in a handful of areas... largely by selling them on a bill of goods that can never be fulfilled.

Late-middle age suburban women see at best, their own sons, and at worst someone who makes their anti-gay bigotry flare in "Mayor Pete Buttplug" as right wing circles have called him.

White Working class men? In between the Grindr hookup they use to fill the void for their sexless marriages to their high school sweethearts who put on 50 lbs, they wonder if a man who takes it up the ass should be Commander in chief.

We live in a cruel, sick, bigoted, patronizing, delusional, hypocrite-filled country. If Democrats keep thinking the way to winning is a neo-Obama White Knight, they're fooling themselves. Obama won coming off a two term republican with a 23% approval rating, in the midst of two losing wars and the worst financial crisis in 70 years. Look for Bill Clintons, not Barack Obamas. If there was one thing Bill Clinton is excellent at, it's being completely full of shit and using that to rope in the rubes.


So here is my even simpler strategy to win:
-> Find some surburban rubes in a handful of states, and scare them about Trump, and then feed them a bunch of cynical lies to get their vote.

- - - Updated - - -

You know, as a former republican myself, I find it pretty upsetting that your solution for the Democratic party is to be more like the Republican Party. You know, the party that got so corrupt and self absorbed that it betrayed the entire nation while employing a con artist to scam the entire population of the US. That Republican party. You think they should be like that.

That self-righteousness is important. That transparency about what they want to do is important, that being better then their opposition is important. That "Win at all costs" mantra is the republicans, and it has led them to a very dark place.

Fuck your "Win at all costs" attitude, there is always a price too great to pay. If we turn to that sort of politics now we will never get this country back.

Yeah that I agree with. Only maybe drop Harris. And Bernie should really drop out, but he won't.

I admire what you're saying. I really do. But you're describing curing the disease. We're not at the cure stage yet. We're at the triage stage. The patient may not make it.

We have to save the patient before we can cure what ails it. Saving the patient means denying Trump 4 more years. However we save the patient, we have to get it done. We can feel bad about how we did it later, while we're curing ourselves. I can live with that. Can we truly live if the patient doesn't make it?

And curing ourselves at its most functional level means in no small part new laws to shatter the power of the Presidency so that these elections matter less, and there is less risk in having a particularly shitty President. Because absent that, there is no enduring cure. Just a bigger band aid with fancier art on it.

This is not a policy election. This is a referendum on Donald J Trump. The end.

[Vankrys]

Thank god these primary debates barely matter, because seriously, many more like this, and Donald Trump will easily win a second term. And that goes for the LGBT town hall too.

If you want to defeat Donald Trump, the strategy is to shut the fuck up about things actually important to you, appeal to surburban women and white men in about 6 or 7 specific states (you know the list), and message only about the following

(1) Donald Trump is corrupt, an unindicted criminal, and self deals (Ukraine, G7, etc).
(2) Trump is helping his rich friends get richer at the expensive of YOUR FAMILY.
(3) Trump is allowing ISIS to resurge and Russia to get stronger
(4) A second term of Donald Trump will be a disaster for your healthcare, retirement, job and kids.
(5) Do you really want another 4 years of the exhausting "Donald Trump show?"

That's it. No gun issues. No LGBT issues. No environmental issues. Nothing. Keep in simple and you win.

All that gun stuff. LGBT stuff. Environmental stuff.... you do that when you win. You do that without telling anybody you're going to do it.

This nonsense of wearing your progressive beliefs on your sleave? If it doesn't stop before long, Donald Trump will coast to a second term. Progressives, being strategically stupid about how to beat the easiest-to-beat President in memory will not understand why.

I'll tell you why.

Be like a Republican.
You don't tell people your ideas when you're running for office. You feed them platitudes, and then do whatever you want once you win.

For the love of god, spare us from Trump II, and execute the motherfucking strat.

Oh and one more thing, the November debate better be just Warren, Biden, Bernie and Harris. It's time for everybody else to go. Enough fooling around.

you have a very cynical view, not saying you are wrong or right, in fact i don't know, but very cynical nonetheless.

Don't you want to believe in your fellow americans. If you talk to them seriously, about real issues, and real solutions. Rather than impossible promesses and empty rhetoric, about just saying "here what i propose we do, here's my plan".

I think Elisabeth Warren is so high in polls not because of her charisma (she has very little of that to be frank) but because she appears to have a plan and people want their leaders to know what they doing or trying to do.

Don't fall on petty rhetoric and cheap attack, treat the american electorate as adult and explain you plan and perhaps more importantly, explain why it's going to work. Republicans keep saying "how you gonna pay for that?" Well explain it thoroughly and the public will follow.

[Skroe]

you have a very cynical view, not saying you are wrong or right, in fact i don't know, but very cynical nonetheless.

Because it works. Cynical politics simply works. That's the sad truth. Don't play the game unless you're going to play the game optimally.

Don't you want to believe in your fellow americans. If you talk to them seriously, about real issues, and real solutions. Rather than impossible promesses and empty rhetoric, about just saying "here what i propose we do, here's my plan".

You mean believe in my fellow AMericans who don't know what Abu Ghirab is? Who never took ownership for the Iraq War? Who have let the Afghanistan War go on for 18 years for no reason? Who forget how they supported deregulation of the banks and living outside their means, and then cried about how they lost everything in the financial crisis? Americans who have spent decades jumping at every tax cut but demand greater services? Americans make excuses about why they shouldn't turn out and vote?

I have every bit of confidence and faith in America. But Americans are extraordinary fantasists with an extraordinary capacity for self delusion. They will take the easy way out always. They will ALWAYS make exceptions for themselves.

Seriously. Longer term, I'm betting we learn zip from Trump. We'll pass some minor reforms, but in the end we'll just say "oh he was a one off". And the next Democratic President that decides that the fierce urgency of now demands a national emergency, maybe this time on Climate Change, we'll all just forget the abuses of that power by the orange maniac in office now.

Americans are a deeply compromised people of low standards who are risk adverse, afraid of imaginary threats, and reliably have to be talked to like children.Do I want to believe in my fellow Americans? You bet I do. But they have to earn their way back up. We are all - all of us - on the first floor of a 2500 foot tall skyscraper, and we're walking up. To get to what we should be, we're going to Earn it. Until that point, we have to make due with what we got, which is a people who will vote in greater numbers for American idol than they will in the primaries.

I think Elisabeth Warren is so high in polls not because of her charisma (she has very little of that to be frank) but because she appears to have a plan and people want their leaders to know what they doing or trying to do.

This is true. She is also talking to the Democratic primary audience though. Large, liberal states dominate that contest. They will not make her President. The yokels of America, who largely live in midwestern "rust belt" states will make her President.

Don't fall on petty rhetoric and cheap attack, treat the american electorate as adult and explain you plan and perhaps more importantly, explain why it's going to work. Republicans keep saying "how you gonna pay for that?" Well explain it thoroughly and the public will follow.

The public will not. And I will explain how we know that.

Medicare for all.

Democrats love the concept. The math is quite clear. Americans as a whole pay more taxes, but take away private insurance payments all together, and the net cost is cheaper. For government. For individuals. Instead of paying $20,000 in insurance you pay $10,000 in taxes or some variation thereover. That argument has been made, and made well.

American's don't give a fig. Medicare for all is a winner among some Democrats. Its a loser among the American public, who are overwhelmingly happy with their insurance.

What about universality? Shouldn't all Americans have health insurance? Isn't it barbarism to let people die without it? Americans seem to not think so. Universal Healthcare - the pre- Obamacare Democratic healthcare cause - was not a political winner. Obamacare cut the number of uninsured in half, and only gained in popularity years later when it reduced costs for people already with insurance. Americans do not want to pay more taxes, or care about access, to people who do not have healthcare. They are EXTREMELY egocentric about it.

They aren't dupes. It's been explained to them. A lot. Clearly. By in large, they just don't care. Ideologically, they're suspicious of government over private insurers. Economically, they just don't care enough about their fellow Americans to pay for them.

That's the country we have. That's what we need to work with. That's why Obamacare, for example, is what it is. Obamacare's first goal, was to fulfil the pre-Obamcare goal... Universal healthcare. It cut the uninsured rate in half and by in large achieved that goal. It's lesser and later-in-effect part benefitted people already with insurance. But Obama played that part up a lot, because he and his team knew what I'm saying: helping people without healthcare is not a political winner... but egocentric benefits to people already with healthcare was a political winner.

In short, I think we have ample reason to be extremely cynical about the American people.

[Shalcker]

Because it works. Cynical politics simply works. That's the sad truth. Don't play the game unless you're going to play the game optimally.

That's how you got Donald Trump though.

Because it looked favourable in polling, and worked in election.

[Ghostpanther]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...s-republicans/

With three polls showing her in the lead, Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) may soon eclipse former vice president Joe Biden as the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination. That’s great news for Republicans, because Warren has a problem: The central message of her campaign is that the economy is working for the very wealthy but it is not working for ordinary Americans. Unfortunately for her, ordinary Americans disagree.

A Marist poll asked voters whether “the economy is working well for you personally.” Nearly two-thirds of Americans said yes. This includes large majorities in almost every demographic group. Sixty-seven percent of college graduates and 64 percent of those without a college education say the economy is working for them. So do 68 percent of whites, and 61 percent of nonwhite people. So do Americans of every generation: 63 percent of Generation Z and millennials; 69 percent of Generation X; 63 percent of baby boomers; and 69 percent of Greatest Generation and Silent Generation voters. So do supermajorities in every region in the country: 60 percent in the West, 65 percent in the Northeast, 67 percent in the Midwest, and 68 percent in the South. So do most voters in every type of American community: 63 percent of both big and small city voters; 64 percent of small-town voters; 66 percent of rural voters; and 72 percent of suburban voters. Most everyone, it seems, says the economy is working for them.

The only groups who disagree, Marist found, are progressives (59 percent), Democratic women (55 percent) and those who are liberal or very liberal (55 percent). So, when Warren declares that President Trump is "part of a corrupt, rigged system that has helped the wealthy and the well-connected and kicked dirt in the faces of everyone else,” it resonates with almost no one except those on the political left.

[Bodakane]

Because it works. Cynical politics simply works. That's the sad truth. Don't play the game unless you're going to play the game optimally.




You mean believe in my fellow AMericans who don't know what Abu Ghirab is? Who never took ownership for the Iraq War? Who have let the Afghanistan War go on for 18 years for no reason? Who forget how they supported deregulation of the banks and living outside their means, and then cried about how they lost everything in the financial crisis? Americans who have spent decades jumping at every tax cut but demand greater services? Americans make excuses about why they shouldn't turn out and vote?

I have every bit of confidence and faith in America. But Americans are extraordinary fantasists with an extraordinary capacity for self delusion. They will take the easy way out always. They will ALWAYS make exceptions for themselves.

Seriously. Longer term, I'm betting we learn zip from Trump. We'll pass some minor reforms, but in the end we'll just say "oh he was a one off". And the next Democratic President that decides that the fierce urgency of now demands a national emergency, maybe this time on Climate Change, we'll all just forget the abuses of that power by the orange maniac in office now.

Americans are a deeply compromised people of low standards who are risk adverse, afraid of imaginary threats, and reliably have to be talked to like children.Do I want to believe in my fellow Americans? You bet I do. But they have to earn their way back up. We are all - all of us - on the first floor of a 2500 foot tall skyscraper, and we're walking up. To get to what we should be, we're going to Earn it. Until that point, we have to make due with what we got, which is a people who will vote in greater numbers for American idol than they will in the primaries.



This is true. She is also talking to the Democratic primary audience though. Large, liberal states dominate that contest. They will not make her President. The yokels of America, who largely live in midwestern "rust belt" states will make her President.


The public will not. And I will explain how we know that.

Medicare for all.

Democrats love the concept. The math is quite clear. Americans as a whole pay more taxes, but take away private insurance payments all together, and the net cost is cheaper. For government. For individuals. Instead of paying $20,000 in insurance you pay $10,000 in taxes or some variation thereover. That argument has been made, and made well.

American's don't give a fig. Medicare for all is a winner among some Democrats. Its a loser among the American public, who are overwhelmingly happy with their insurance.

What about universality? Shouldn't all Americans have health insurance? Isn't it barbarism to let people die without it? Americans seem to not think so. Universal Healthcare - the pre- Obamacare Democratic healthcare cause - was not a political winner. Obamacare cut the number of uninsured in half, and only gained in popularity years later when it reduced costs for people already with insurance. Americans do not want to pay more taxes, or care about access, to people who do not have healthcare. They are EXTREMELY egocentric about it.

They aren't dupes. It's been explained to them. A lot. Clearly. By in large, they just don't care. Ideologically, they're suspicious of government over private insurers. Economically, they just don't care enough about their fellow Americans to pay for them.

That's the country we have. That's what we need to work with. That's why Obamacare, for example, is what it is. Obamacare's first goal, was to fulfil the pre-Obamcare goal... Universal healthcare. It cut the uninsured rate in half and by in large achieved that goal. It's lesser and later-in-effect part benefitted people already with insurance. But Obama played that part up a lot, because he and his team knew what I'm saying: helping people without healthcare is not a political winner... but egocentric benefits to people already with healthcare was a political winner.

In short, I think we have ample reason to be extremely cynical about the American people.

WADR, single payer has not been explained to the American people well at all. Most people have no idea how it will be paid for. I think our world view is sometimes colored by political discussions on message boards, but the vast majority of America does not engage in political discourse like we do here. The moderates, which is who the target is for both sides as they decide the election, are not looking into political discussions all that frequently and they do not understand this medicare for all.

[Skroe]

Dont worry. She is backed by plenty of billionaires. She is just a puppet pretending she will change anything about the economy.

You expect the President to fundamentally change the economy? Like seriously? With what? The Infinity Gauntlet?

President's don't even get much of a voice in the federal budget anymore. And you want him or her to affect something far larger and more complex.

Honestly progressives are hopeless. You need far more progressives in the house than you have. You need 60 votes in the Senate, with far more progressives than there are in the existing 47 Democrats.

But no, you want to skip to the end, - perish the thought of the nitty gritty details - and fall in love with a candidate who will deliver your hearts desire with the stroke of a pen.

And this is how Donald Trump wins a second term. This is EXACTLY how he does it. You people treat this like a policy election... worse a policy election at the end of a massive political transformation (that in reality, is very far from happening)... when it's a referendum on Donald Fucking Trump.

If I were you @Rochana, I'd enter cryogenic sleep for the next 10-15 years because "changing things about the economy", whatever the fuck that means, needs a lot more Congressman and Senators who would vote for that than you're anywhere close to having... and all of that well before you have the President to make it happen.

Personally, I wish I had some kind of Transdimensional vieweing device so I can peer into the timeline where Bernie wins in 2020, and then in early 2021 when the current budget deal runs out signs the next two year deal that Nancy Pelosi and ol' Turtleface put infront of him, complete with $800 billion defense budget and no M4A. Because I can't wait to read the next round of "do progressives feel betrayed?" write ups, you know, just like what happened when Candidate Obama became President Obama, and it turned out it was not, in fact, change we could believe in, drone war, GITMO, bailouts and all.

[CostinR]

And this is how Donald Trump wins a second term. This is EXACTLY how he does it. You people treat this like a policy election... worse a policy election at the end of a massive political transformation (that in reality, is very far from happening)... when it's a referendum on Donald Fucking Trump.

I know you may not care much for it but I have serious admiration for your overall posts. It's been quite a delight opening MMO champ today to read the walls of text.

But I am genuinely curious: Did you actually expect different from the democrats in this respect? They are the party of big city interests and from personal experience having lived in a big city my entire life I've found people have egos the size of Uranus.

This is what strikes me. They don't care to win unless IT'S THEIR way. Fuck I remember years ago when I despised the Tea Party for doing this same shit, but they are small potatoes.

Seriously all they had to do is keep their mouths shut, let Biden win and they'd coast to victory in 2020....but NO we instead got months upon months of wall to wall coverage of Beto, Mayor Pete and Kama fucking Harris, as if any them had a fucking chance: Tulsi Gabbard killing Kamala's campaign with one debate attack proved that.

I can't wait for Trump to be on the debate stage against Elizabeth Warren and Pence against whatever gender neutral candidate she picks as VP, the smackdown will be biblical.