How did blizzard manage to let class/talent design get so bad?

[Beefkow]

People complaining about talents or homogenization and saying classic is better in that regards are simply delusional.
MOST of the time you spend is casting frostbolt or shadowbolt.

"let alone back in classic", laughable:

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/rep...casts&source=1
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/rep...done&source=27

The only difference is warlock has this one dot. And 5/6 letters in spell name

frostBOLT
shadowBOLT

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No there is none, if there is literally ZERO impact on your gameplay, all these cheap fillter "talents" +X% to something are completely uninteresting.

Answer me these questions:

Can a mage fear?

Can a mage create healthstones?

Can a mage create soulstones?

Can a mage summon people?

Can a mage summon a demon?

Can a mage summon a pet?

If you answered no to all of those questions.... then mages aren't warlocks.

Just stop it man, you're killing the forums with your nonsense.

No there is none, if there is literally ZERO impact on your gameplay, all these cheap fillter "talents" +X% to something are completely uninteresting.

Then why are you playing wow? Just goofing off with your friends? Roleplaying in Goldshire? God knows what you do in your spare time.

You obviously don't care about class design, at all.

[Black Goat]

People complaining about talents or homogenization and saying classic is better in that regards are simply delusional.
MOST of the time you spend is casting frostbolt or shadowbolt.

"let alone back in classic", laughable:

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/rep...casts&source=1
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/rep...done&source=27

The only difference is warlock has this one dot. And 5/6 letters in spell name

frostBOLT
shadowBOLT

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No there is none, if there is literally ZERO impact on your gameplay, all these cheap fillter "talents" +X% to something are completely uninteresting.

Nope. Wrong again, Bobby.

We aren't delusional because we like Classic. But since you are unable to differentiate a Warlock from a Mage, which are two completely different classes with different mechanics and 6 unique different specializations, then I wouldn't dare challenge you with a more critical example.

It seems your critical thinking level hit its limit with Square Shape, Round Hole.

EDIT: Warlocks have more than one DOT. Keep lying and over-simplifying things. You're making me look good. Did you seriously also just try to say the classes are the same because Shadowbolt and Frostbolt both have "-bolt" in the name? LMAO.

[Alydael]

I don't think the content in BFA is bad on a fundamental level, outside of them forgetting to add things back to the game (mat vendors, for example) the primary issue with the game is spec/talent design. Most of the specs in the game just feel bad to play, they just aren't fun. You can blame some of this on the GCD change (which to this day makes no coherent sense to me) but many specs have such little talent diversity you could remove most talents and it wouldn't matter even slightly. There are talents in the game that are so bad, they're a dps loss over taking no talent at all. People will play bad content if the specs are fun to play, but when the specs aren't fun to play then no matter how good your content is people are just going to stop.

I really just don't get the mentality blizzard had going into BFA, they were repeatedly warned by people playing the beta that many specs just felt awful and kept insisting azerite was going to fix it, and that never materialized. And because blizzard doesn't like doing large reworks mid xpac, we're now left with a bunch of specs that likely won't be fixed or fun to play until next expansion, if they're ever fixed at all.

The only solution I can see going forward is to roll back some of the massive redesigns they've done over the years and restore classes to what they used to be, and then tune the numbers. Because when we do lose azerite and essences, we're going to be left in the exact same situation we're in now, specs that feel incomplete and clunky to play.

It got so bad because they listened to all the crying from the community-not the other way around.

Any spec that isn't competing for best dps, best healer or tank always cries that they won't be brought to raids and its not fair, etc, etc.

Blizzards response was to homogenize the classes because if everyone is the same then you won't hear people crying over it.

Then the community cried about how homogenized and lifeless the classes felt......... So Blizz tries to band-aid fix it.

The morale of the story- don't really listen to the community. They aren't game planners/ designers. They each have their own interests and concerns. Their main concern is mainly how they can be "good at the game"- not the "good of the game."

That's why you just make the best game you can and hopefully people will like it and play it. You don't try to run a hybrid game design committee between devs and the more vocal players (vocal- because many players don't even post, so the vast majority is never heard).

Even reading that idea back it sounds even more ridiculous........

[Craaazyyy]

People complaining about talents or homogenization and saying classic is better in that regards are simply delusional.
MOST of the time you spend is casting frostbolt or shadowbolt.

"let alone back in classic", laughable:

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/rep...casts&source=1
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/rep...done&source=27

The only difference is warlock has this one dot. And 5/6 letters in spell name

frostBOLT
shadowBOLT

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No there is none, if there is literally ZERO impact on your gameplay, all these cheap fillter "talents" +X% to something are completely uninteresting.

there is a lot of impact.. have you heard of PVP?

[kaminaris]

Answer me these questions:

Can a mage fear?

Can a mage create healthstones?

Can a mage create soulstones?

Can a mage summon people?

Can a mage summon a demon?

Can a mage summon a pet?

If you answered no to all of those questions.... then mages aren't warlocks.

Then answer the same question for BfA with additional ones:

Can warlock cast timewrap?

Can warlock create hp+mp regen consumables?

Can mage put gateway?

Can mage such hp of target?

and many others, and stop with this ridiculous nonsense. Mage and warlock are much further apart in BfA than in classic.

You obviously don't care about class design, at all.

Do you understand written words? Doesn't seem like it. Go back to begining and re-read discussion because you clearly don't understand what I am saying.

[Black Goat]

Do you understand written words? Doesn't seem like it. Go back to begining and re-read discussion because you clearly don't understand what I am saying.

Moving goalposts again. How refreshing.

No one understand what you're saying because it is thoroughly, 100%, nonsense.

Mages =/= Warlocks. Sure, they're both ranged casters, but that's it.

[kaminaris]

Moving goalposts again. How refreshing.

No one understand what you're saying because it is thoroughly, 100%, nonsense.

Mages =/= Warlocks. Sure, they're both ranged casters, but that's it.

Not a single goalpost was moved. People complaining class design in BfA and saying that classic/vanilla has *cough* good class design are purely delusional, maybe even completely mad.

[Beefkow]

stop with this ridiculous nonsense. Mage and warlock are much further apart in BfA than in classic.

What are you talking about?

Not once did I make a comparison between classic and BFA, let alone mention how mages and warlocks are nearly identical in BFA or anything that you may think is "ridiculous nonsense".

Not a single goalpost was moved. People complaining class design in BfA and saying that classic/vanilla has *cough* good class design are purely delusional, maybe even completely mad.

I also never said that vanilla had good class design, stop putting words into my mouth.

Stop calling people delusional when they either disagree with you or don't understand what gibberish your spouting.

[kaminaris]

What are you talking about?

Not once did I make a comparison between classic and BFA, let alone mention how mages and warlocks are nearly identical in BFA or anything that you may think is "ridiculous nonsense".

Then don't speak if you have no clue what we were talking about.

This is the start of conversation: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post51739687

Long story short, that dude claimed classic class design is better than bfa. I never claimed mage is identical to warlock in bfa. I said they are nearly identical in classic in which he said has better "not homogenized" class design.

[Beefkow]

I said they are nearly identical in classic in which he said has better "not homogenized" class design.

Well, he's not wrong, classes in classic were definitely different from each other in various ways compared to BFA.

[kaminaris]

Well, he's not wrong, classes in classic were definitely different from each other in various ways compared to BFA.

No he is wrong, completely wrong. Most RDPS used single spell, like Druid Bala, Mage, Warlock. Classic is epitome of homogenization and bad class design.

[Black Goat]

Not a single goalpost was moved. People complaining class design in BfA and saying that classic/vanilla has *cough* good class design are purely delusional, maybe even completely mad.

1. First you said the classes were the same with 1-button rotations.

2. Then you claimed, well, the Warlock is only 1-button rotation if OTHER Warlocks are present in the same raid as you. (Goalpost moved.)

3. Then you said, "MOST of the time..." (Goalpost moved a second time.)

4. Then you dropped your Classic comparison entirely and attempted to shift focus to BFA comparisons, which is completely not what's being discussed between you and I.

5. You also attempted to draw parallels between Mage and Warlock because Shadowbolt and Frostbolt have "bolt" in it. As if that's some indication the classes are homogenized. Do you see how laughable that actually is? I sure hope you do.

On top of all that, you called Classic fans delusional. Twice now, which I will report you for considering it's just rude. We don't agree with you, so we're delusional? What a knee-slapper of a joke. Are you really this unaware of the concept of logical fallacies and goalposting? I don't blame you if you are, because you can be educated, but to claim you're not making those errors when you clearly are is alarming. Especially when you call others "delusional".

[Doffen]

Big improvement over classic on a dramatic number of levels. And that wasn't even remotely what I was referring to, but I get the feeling you aren't really looking for context here. that's okay though. we don't have to agree.

TBC wasn't the most balanced point of game design, but to me, it was definitely the most interesting and immersive. There were more roles than "hit stuff", "heal stuff" and "get hit". Being able to fulfill a real hybrid role was exciting. Not even classic truly had that in a way that could actually be performed successfully.

Poor little hunters got moved up from being tranq bots that spammed aimed shot to having a full rotation and being highly sought after in dungeons. Must have truly been rough on you.

Mained Hunter in TBC, it was amazing. I played MM as well, I was probably alone. But that BM macro though, loved it. A good hunter in TBC, that was good times

Trapping, kiting, nuking, more kiting, one shotted mages in BGs with Aimed Shot, nuking and then some nuking. Rotations, sure, wasn't the most exciting ones if we look back, though I did love that macro, but class fantasy was pretty good.

[Beefkow]

No he is wrong, completely wrong. Most RDPS used single spell, like Druid Bala, Mage, Warlock. Classic is epitome of homogenization and bad class design.

They used one single spell... in classic? Is that all you ever talk about is raiding? Do you assume every fight is Patchwerk?

What about pvp? World pvp? Dungeons? You seem fixated on this raiding fantasy.

Ya, i'm done.

Bye fallecia.

[kaminaris]

1. First you said the classes were the same with 1-button rotations.

2. Then you claimed, well, the Warlock is only 1-button rotation if OTHER Warlocks are present in the same raid as you. (Goalpost moved.)

3. Then you said, "MOST of the time..." (Goalpost moved a second time.)

4. Then you dropped your Classic comparison entirely and attempted to shift focus to BFA comparisons, which is completely not what's being discussed between you and I.

5. You also attempted to draw parallels between Mage and Warlock because Shadowbolt and Frostbolt have "bolt" in it. As if that's some indication the classes are homogenized. Do you see how laughable that actually is? I sure hope you do.

On top of all that, you called Classic fans delusional. Twice now, which I will report you for considering it's just rude. We don't agree with you, so we're delusional? What a knee-slapper of a joke. Are you really this unaware of the concept of logical fallacies and goalposting? I don't blame you if you are, because you can be educated, but to claim you're not making those errors when you clearly are is alarming. Especially when you call others "delusional".

1. The same according to your logic. Even more "homogenized" buzzword-y than BfA.
2. No, Read it again, you usually use one of 3 curses (which you can basically ignore if other warlocks are doing it, or even completely ignore it as you can see from logs.) and spam shadowbolt. Done. No need to use any other spell.
3. Again, no, spamming one button thought the fight and using one other spell ONCE doesnt make it magically different:
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/rep...pe=damage-done

4. You cut in between discussion so its your duty to understand what is it about to not be ignorant.

5. No its not. That is homogenization. Having 2 classes which exact same rotation but different visuals. That is homogenization.

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They used one single spell... in classic?

Ya, i'm done.

Bye fallecia.

Yes they do:
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/rep...done&source=24


Unless you count that one death coil.
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/rep...done&source=27

Couldn't even find bala druid, but bala druid only spell is starfire.

Hunter uses 1-2
Spriest uses 3

Thats about it.

[Beefkow]

-snip-

Frostbolt slows an enemy and deals frost damage.

Shadowbolt deals shadow damage and applies a shadow vulnerability debuff, (if talented).

Schools of magic worked different back then, some mobs were immune to X school and resistance existed, so they're different.

And if you say that mage and lock are the same BECAUSE of those two abilities, then.... I don't know what to say.

[Bepples]

Big improvement over classic on a dramatic number of levels.

Not really. In Classic we were rotating Aimed Shot and Multi-Shot with Auto Shot, and in BC that went down to just Steady Shot and Auto Shot. Just having Aspect of the Viper for mana regen made BC a better expansion for Hunters, don't get me wrong, but it really wasn't the dramatic improvement the class needed. That would have to wait until WotLK.

TBC wasn't the most balanced point of game design, but to me, it was definitely the most interesting and immersive. There were more roles than "hit stuff", "heal stuff" and "get hit". Being able to fulfill a real hybrid role was exciting. Not even classic truly had that in a way that could actually be performed successfully.

It's not even about balance. It IS about being interesting and immersive and frankly that wasn't there yet for many specs in the game, including all 3 Hunter specs.

Poor little hunters got moved up from being tranq bots that spammed aimed shot to having a full rotation and being highly sought after in dungeons. Must have truly been rough on you.

Lol!? We did NOT have a full rotation. The optimal thing to do as a Hunter was seriously to pull a macro off a guide that matched your weapon speed to do the correct amount of Steady Shots per Auto Shot and just spam that macro until the boss died.

THIS, like really, people should look past "rotation" when discussing class design of vanilla, tbc and even WotLK to an extent
that was not the point even, it was more about strategy, preparation and knowledge more than actual "arcade game" of executing rotation.

No amount of buzzword nonsense can justify gameplay as stale as what I detailed above. A dynamic priority list is what's all about strategy, preparation, and knowledge. You can't just excuse the static rotational tedium of Classic/BC because in some areas of the game we got to use our full utility toolkit. We still have to strategise with our whole toolkit in PvP situations today in BFA. The core moment-to-moment gameplay matters the most out of everything and it was pretty bad in Classic/BC compared to later expansions.

I totally agree, they did it in a terrible way, but the pure concept of there being a hunter spec that is very much your sort of tracker/barbarian woodsman, with ability to use both range and melee is a fantastic one!

So fantastic that next to no one plays it.

I have the ability to fight in melee range as MM and BM, too, by the way, with the added bonus of being fully capable of fighting up to 40 yards. Why don't you just play BM, run into melee, and pretend to be whacking it with a stick like your beloved Warrior class fantasy you seem to want to be represented by a Hunter spec

maybe there's more to class design than just rotation? haven't thought of that?

Core, moment-to-moment gameplay is the most important part. On some level he is right.

[FAILoZOFF]

No amount of buzzword nonsense can justify gameplay as stale as what I detailed above. A dynamic priority list is what's all about strategy, preparation, and knowledge

Let's just agree to disagree. If I'd want that, I'd rather go play some Guitar Hero. Like really, we all know some sht were retarded in vanilla/tbc and IF I could have for instance- paladins doing something more than autoattacking to deal damage I'd have no problem with it, but I can't.
Besides... even autoattacking mobs on vanilla is imo funnier than doing "whole rotation" while leveling in BfA, so there's that.

[Socialhealer]

WoD happened, thats it really, LETS PRUNE SHIT HURR DURR, game fucking ruined.

[Flutterguy]

Listening to the fans.