[Spoilers] A plothole

[Piamonte]

And in doing so, changed the canon, yes.

Also, no, they don't. Nothing there suggests that the OGs deaths had no impact. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

No he didnt, falstad is alive.

Also what?? How is the game showing you the reason that caused the cataclysm through several questlines, npc and a zone makes you believe "nope, its the old gods"??.
It isnt an ambiguous thing, it isnt open for interpretation, it doesnt leave room for doubt. Seriusly, how can you get to that conclusion?? You have to literally dismiss established lore to say that the death of the old gods caused the cataclysm.

[Gaidax]

You dont get it, we have already killed two old gods and we didnt hurt azeroth, all that was needed was an army and the Titans had the titan forged, now blizzard is telling us that there was a way to cirgucally remove an Old God the same way you remove a tumor without hurting healthy tissue, why the titans didnt do that in the first place??

Titans simply did not know how exactly to do this thing properly and instead did whatever they could at a time.

Uldir itself implies this to be the case, being a facility specifically made to study Old Gods, their corruption and find a way to counter them. It is plausible that MOTHER knows more about the whole thing now, than Titans knew eons ago.

Quite honestly, your whole "plothole" claim assumes Titans were omnipotent and omnipresent, which they weren't. After all, Titans did not even realize Void Lords existence, merely knowing there is a Void as a whole and Old Gods because they were in front of their noses.

I mean, even in Chronicle it's written that they did not know what to do and thus ended up containing the threat instead. And this all even before Heart of Azeroth, Xalatath blade and MOTHER who spent countless ages gathering data on Old Gods in Uldir.

[Lolites]

If repurposing the reorigination device to only affect a specific place was so easy why didnt the Titans do that in the first place?? This way they could have killed every old god without hurting the planet. Problem solved.

well... werent those devices build AFTER imprisoning old gods?

[Piamonte]

Titans simply did not know how exactly to do this thing properly and instead did whatever they could at a time.

Uldir itself implies this to be the case, being a facility specifically made to study Old Gods, their corruption and find a way to counter them. It is plausible that MOTHER knows more about the whole thing now, than Titans knew eons ago.

Quite honestly, your whole "plothole" claim assumes Titans were omnipotent and omnipresent, which they weren't. After all, Titans did not even realize Void Lords existence, merely knowing there is a Void as a whole and Old Gods because they were in front of their noses.

I mean, even in Chronicle it's written that they did not know what to do and thus ended up containing the threat instead. And this all even before Heart of Azeroth, Xalatath blade and MOTHER who spent countless ages gathering data on Old Gods in Uldir.

Well this is a good answer.

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well... werent those devices build AFTER imprisoning old gods?

They could just built them before...

[Mehrunes]

No he didnt, falstad is alive.

You cling onto that, but Metzen's Falstad thing was a question, not a statement. So you repeatedly resorting to that isn't exactly as much of a gotcha as you think it is. And even if it was a statement, him making it would make Falstad dead, even if it was retconned later on because that's how Word of God works.

Also what?? How is the game showing you the reason that caused the cataclysm through several questlines, npc and a zone makes you believe "nope, its the old gods"??.
It isnt an ambiguous thing, it isnt open for interpretation, it doesnt leave room for doubt. Seriusly, how can you get to that conclusion?? You have to literally dismiss established lore to say that the death of the old gods caused the cataclysm.

Nothing about those quests rules out Old Gods's deaths contributing to the Cataclysm by weakening the foundations of the world or whatnot.

[Piamonte]

You cling onto that, but Metzen's Falstad thing was a question, not a statement. So you repeatedly resorting to that isn't exactly as much of a gotcha as you think it is. And even if it was a statement, him making it would make Falstad dead, even if it was retconned later on because that's how Word of God works.




Nothing about those quests rules out Old Gods's deaths contributing to the Cataclysm by weakening the foundations of the world or whatnot.

You are missing the point of that discussion, the point is that metzen forgets established lore and talks out of his ass so is not out of reason to say that he fucked up when he said the cataclysm was caused because of old gods dying despite the lore ingame directly contradicting him.

As for the second argument, dude the game tells you the reason why the cataclysm happened, if you want to dismiss established lore then just dont answer me because this discussion is pointless.

[Polybius]

Your question assumes the Titans stayed on Azeroth and always had access to reorigination. Clearly they abandoned it, and denizens were left behind to test reorigination in Uldir and Uldum.

[Piamonte]

Your question assumes the Titans stayed on Azeroth and always had access to reorigination. Clearly they abandoned it, and denizens were left behind to test reorigination in Uldir and Uldum.

Then why didnt they stayed??... The point is the same.

[Terongor]

No, i'm saying that Metzen told us that this was in some way caused by Yoggy and C'Thun dying. You're way overcomplicating the situation.

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Well, then you completely failed to get that point across. And it's most definitely not all or nothing, they can easily be partially true.

Or they can be lies, truths or half truths but only concrete evidence which is in live currently was quote from Xal'atath as you haven't linked the metzens exact statement.

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Once again, I would like remind you that even though Wowpedia can be reliable, don't blindly trust anything without citation and a direct quote in it. Remember that it is written by players - like you or me, and have been wrong / outdated a number of times before. In regards of this matter, please see below explanation.


Thank God that Blizzard cleared this, (hopefully) once and for all, so that people won't be confused with terms that can carry multiple meaning (i.e: defeated, vanquished, etc.) anymore. In Blizzcon 2018 - 8 months after Chronicle 3 was published, they clarified:

Q: Third Chronicles have information about Old Gods. Every Old God, except N’Zoth, have been beaten, but not “killed”. It is true? Are Old Gods like C’Thun or Yogg-Saron still alive?
AA: I would say that we should consider them dead. But! As with all things in World of Warcraft and in general in the Warcraft universe, death is not always final. Therefore, if there is the coming of the Old Gods, or some precursor of the Old Gods appear from the eternal darkness, from the Void, for example, if there is any way or opportunity to return them, I imagine that this may well happen".

There you go, they are dead. However, like everything else in WoW, being dead doesn't guarantee that they will be gone forever - and neither will that stop them from interacting with the world in some manners. This is NOT limited to just the Old Gods - we have seen Medivh (before rezzed) and MU Gul'dan (in form of merely a skull) interacting with the world before.

To be honest, knowing the Old-Gods-can't-die group, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that after so many indications, both in and outside the game, people are still believing in the crap that we only killed their physical manifestations so they aren't dead and such They are just as dead as Medivh before Aegwynn resurrected him, as Kael'thas, Arthas, Onyxia, Nelfarion, and many other bosses we killed (ironically, though, probably less dead than the "immortal" demons who got killed inside the Nether). Most of the time (with some exceptions), we only killed the, well, "physical manifestation" of bosses - that didn't prevent them from being dead.

Well this I will accept but its still a strange choosing of word use defeat as defeat mosr commonly in wow lore has meant what it meant at the of BoDA with Jaina so wording defeat is extremely weird when they haev the herald Vojalz quote ingame.

BUT yeah good that theyconfirmed either as personnally I was onky stating arguments for the other side as I wasn't sure.

[shadowmatrix]

Not this again, all sources talk about them being dead, yog talks about his corpse, chogal talks about "resurrecting" Cthun, a dev says they are dead, etc.

What does a corpse really mean where the old gods are concerned? How many old minions have been dead just be get revived as soon as the weapon keeping them down was removed?

Ywaq maq oou; ywaq maq ssaggh. Ywaq ma shg'fhn.
They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle.
Herald Volazj - Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom

[Piamonte]

What does a corpse really mean where the old gods are concerned? How many old minions have been dead just be get revived as soon as the weapon keeping them down was removed?

Ywaq maq oou; ywaq maq ssaggh. Ywaq ma shg'fhn.
They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle.
Herald Volazj - Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom

Check the post just above yours...they are dead.

[Nynax]

...you've missed the point of my comparison entirely.

The Dragon Aspects need to focus all of their power THROUGH an object to kill Deathwing.

MOTHER and Magni need to focus all the power of the Forges (Which are working in sync at the end of the raid due to your efforts) to kill N'zoth.

I mean there's a literal plot point IN 8.3 about some of the Tol'vir wanting to just turn the Forge of Origination on, on its own, to stop him. The problem is that this would destroy the entire world. So they need to figure out a way to channel all the forges together without killing everything else on the planet.

It's been milennia since the Titans found Azeroth and tried to kill the Old Gods, perhaps Azeroth just wasn't able to help them out yet, and now she has. We clearly see she's gaining power if she can gift us items and bestow her will onto other creatures.

Is there any indication as to what is making her gain power? Sure, "time" is a factor...but how? In what way? What is "food" to a Titan?

Maybe all those lost souls recently has something to do with it...

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To be honest, knowing the Old-Gods-can't-die group, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that after so many indications, both in and outside the game, people are still believing in the crap that we only killed their physical manifestations so they aren't dead and such They are just as dead as Medivh before Aegwynn resurrected him, as Kael'thas, Arthas, Onyxia, Nelfarion, and many other bosses we killed (ironically, though, probably less dead than the "immortal" demons who got killed inside the Nether). Most of the time (with some exceptions), we only killed the, well, "physical manifestation" of bosses - that didn't prevent them from being dead.

That's a pretty funny thing to realize. For literally every single living creature in the "mortal realm" we only kill the body. Unless you kill the spirit too, they will "live" on. Hah, new Luke is in the wrong franchise, “No one's ever really gone.”

[Akibaboy]

If repurposing the reorigination device to only affect a specific place was so easy why didnt the Titans do that in the first place?? This way they could have killed every old god without hurting the planet. Problem solved.

To quote Garrosh Hellscream, "Times change."

Lots of great speculation and subtext analysis going on in this thread so I'll throw my two cents in:

Maybe showing up on a planet and immediately trying to fix things and it having disastrous effects was the entire point of them deciding to install a myriad of machines and testing facilities, and electing to give it a few dozen millennia to gather intel. The titans haven't been around for quite awhile. Their keepers are a) not nearly as capable and powerful as they are (as we see in Ulduar), and b) seemingly more bound to protocol and faith they held in their makers.

Beyond that, in BfA we see for the first time:
1) Azeroth itself being somewhat more present in events by crying out to a speaker, gifting a heart to gather and channel its energies, and us being plainly told that her existence hangs in the balance
2) The fact that the Titans had a facility designed to develop Old God-esque entities and test containment and sterilization of said entities. The facility going defunct and losing its connection to the rest of the Titan network means none of that research was shared with the rest of the Keepers unless we're told otherwise. We do a questline with Magni to bring the connection back online for the first time in well over 10k years.
3) A being stationed at said facility (MOTHER), having the research she's accrued over tens of thousands of years being re-stationed and taking an active role in fighting Old God corruption instead of a passive one.
4) Spending a year gathering an immense amount of the planet's own lifeblood energies in its purest form the likes that no one had previously witnessed, and now having said energies at our disposal. It's possible that with Azerite in play, that's a much safer method of purging an infection - the difference of your own blood cells fighting off an infection rather than having to have it burnt out of you.

Again this is all speculation, but speculation's fun. A lot more fun than just having a 30 minute codec call or visual novel lore dump. There's a lot more room for roleplay when you're allowed to live in the subtext.

[Yoshingo]

Is there any indication as to what is making her gain power? Sure, "time" is a factor...but how? In what way? What is "food" to a Titan?

Maybe all those lost souls recently has something to do with it...

I think just maturing as a nascent Titan. Once she awakens (If she ever does) she'll become as powerful as the Pantheon's members. I think it'd be pretty strange if they suddenly just made Azeroth an antagonistic force, she's always been portrayed in a positive light.

Also if she was bad what could we even do to stop her? We kill her but then what happens to the planet?

[Odinfrost]

About that whole "who was responsible for the cataclysm", wasn't it stated somewhere that due to the death of Yogg and C'thun, that the remaining old god, aka N'zoth, decided to enact his own plans and told Deathwing to start just wrecking everything? I vaguely remember it being stated somewhere that the cataclysm was caused by Deathwing, but was due to the two old gods dying.

[Piamonte]

About that whole "who was responsible for the cataclysm", wasn't it stated somewhere that due to the death of Yogg and C'thun, that the remaining old god, aka N'zoth, decided to enact his own plans and told Deathwing to start just wrecking everything? I vaguely remember it being stated somewhere that the cataclysm was caused by Deathwing, but was due to the two old gods dying.

I mean yeah one way to see it is that Nzoth got scared after seeing Cthun and yog saron die and so decided to put his plan in motion but the people here are arguing something different, they are saying that yogg and cthun death somehow "weakened the foundations of the world and caused the cataclysm" which is hillarious because we know what caused the cataclysm, the game makes it very explicit through several npcs, quests and zones that the reason that caused the cataclysm was deathwing powers and the breaking of the world pillar, shamans and elementals alike are capable of not only seeing this but feeling it as well and no where do they mention that the old gods deaths were involved.

[shadowmatrix]

About that whole "who was responsible for the cataclysm", wasn't it stated somewhere that due to the death of Yogg and C'thun, that the remaining old god, aka N'zoth, decided to enact his own plans and told Deathwing to start just wrecking everything? I vaguely remember it being stated somewhere that the cataclysm was caused by Deathwing, but was due to the two old gods dying.

Does that mean their deaths directly harmed the planet? Or does it mean that their deaths removed the final two rivals allowing N'zoth to have full control of the old god forces until they got resurrected?

[Yoshingo]

About that whole "who was responsible for the cataclysm", wasn't it stated somewhere that due to the death of Yogg and C'thun, that the remaining old god, aka N'zoth, decided to enact his own plans and told Deathwing to start just wrecking everything? I vaguely remember it being stated somewhere that the cataclysm was caused by Deathwing, but was due to the two old gods dying.

Metzen said during the Cata announcement that N'zoth was "signing Deathwing's checks" and that was the first time they officially named him as developers.

[Mehrunes]

You are missing the point of that discussion, the point is that metzen forgets established lore and talks out of his ass so is not out of reason to say that he fucked up when he said the cataclysm was caused because of old gods dying despite the lore ingame directly contradicting him.

There's nothing to miss here. Metzen forgetting things on occasion doesn't mean nothing he said is ever canon. He's the developer of this game, at the time of that comment probably as high as it went in the storytelling department. His word is canon by default because, again, that's how Word of God means. You harping on a mistake of his doesn't negate that. You trying to equate any particular comment of his with that mistake is outright bogus.

As for the second argument, dude the game tells you the reason why the cataclysm happened, if you want to dismiss established lore then just dont answer me because this discussion is pointless.

Which part of the word "contributing" eludes your understanding, exactly? Humor me. Here's a hint: Old Gods' deaths contributing to the Cataclysm not only doesn't negate Deathwing's actions and their relevance to the Cataclysm, but isn't even mutually exclusive with that. So there is no dismissing of established lore required for what I said to stand. Whereas your "counterargument" requires the very concept of language to be thrown out to the garbage to "work". Having said that, I am pretty aware you're unlikely to get it even now. @huth tried for quite a few posts and it was all in vain after all.

[rhorle]

I think just maturing as a nascent Titan. Once she awakens (If she ever does) she'll become as powerful as the Pantheon's members. I think it'd be pretty strange if they suddenly just made Azeroth an antagonistic force, she's always been portrayed in a positive light.

They could easily do it with multiple personalities. Azeroth has been through a lot of trauma and a lot of powerful beings have been trying to middle with her. We saw how the legion drove Argus mad. We could have WoW: Shattered where we essentially have to fight, or work together, with the shards of Azeroth. To make her whole once again. It would be pretty hard to convey this properly in a game.

Mental instability is hard for even most authors to properly convey in books (Brandon Sanderson has done a good job in my opinion of capturing "broken" people with out even really being mentally unstable)