Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Milchshake]

My main criticism of the Democrats as a party has generally been that they behave rationally and assume the republicans are the same. Even after they prove their own craziness they still try to be rational and amiable and no... that shit does not work. Democrats play poker with a guy who constantly stares at the mirror behind and still try their best to play fairly and respectfully.

A friend and I were talking about this the other day. Why don't Democrats or other Liberal parties have Ratfucking operations like their conservative counterparts?
Conservative Ratfucking has been a serious thing since Nixon.
Even Democrat donors suck at Ratfucking. The Kochs go off to fund Cambridge Analytica and thousands of other propaganda outfits. Soros is just funding Universities and free speech workshops.


Dems don't even have to lie. The just have to point out the Truth of the GOP endgame. The GOP wants to take away everyone's social security and civil rights.
Sure it's an uphill battle. Since pointing out these truths get people infracted or accused of incivility by pundits or the controllers of debate.

[Skroe]

A friend and I were talking about this the other day. Why don't Democrats or other Liberal parties have Ratfucking operations like their conservative counterparts?
Conservative Ratfucking has been a serious thing since Nixon.
Even Democrat donors suck at Ratfucking. The Kochs go off to fund Cambridge Analytica and thousands of other propaganda outfits. Soros is just funding Universities and free speech workshops.


Dems don't even have to lie. The just have to point out the Truth of the GOP endgame. The GOP wants to take away everyone's social security and civil rights.
Sure it's an uphill battle. Since pointing out these truths get people infracted or accused of incivility by pundits or the controllers of debate.

Recall early in the Obama Presidency, people in the White House likened him to Spock... a Vulcan. Logical. Rational.

Bullhonkey.

Modern Democrats have positions largely based on logic, rationality, and reason (I've basically repeated myself 3 times). They are passionate about things that, even if you disagree with the conclusions, have a rational, and logical foundation.

The Democrats greatest failing across the last 20 years - since they transitioned from being the Party of the working glass to the party of the educated - is to think this applies to everyone, people in general, and is smart politics.

Obama, famously, did not actively negotiate with Republicans in the House and Senate. He left that to House and Senate Democrats. This broke with precedent. Bush '41 directly negotiated wit the opposition party in the Legislature. As did Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush and Reagan. Obama did this because he wanted to be seen "above the fray", basically non-partisan, and felt that his positions were so logical and self evident, that they spoke for themselves.

This is, of course, really, really bad politics, and is a big reason Obama was a legislative loser of a President after the 2010 midterms, far more than mere Republican obstruction. Obama's White House - much to the chagrin of Democrats in Congress - did nothing to bring Republicans aboard as stakeholders. And when Congressional Democrats attempted to do that on their own, the White House wouldn't necessarily go along with it. Let's be clear: during the Obama era, Congressional Democrats regarded the Obama White House largely as a hostile party, because they did not engage in the art politics which turns proposal into policy into law. Most notable was the failure to create a budget in 2013 which lead to sequestration. What ensued after was Democrats and Republicans deciding to make a budget for themselves, cut the White House out, and tell it "you're singning it, it's veto proof, we'll see you for it next year, where you'll have no voice in it again".

An arrangement which lasts to this very day.

Democrats are rational to a fault. Politics is about people and people are irrational. They are emotional. They are prejudiced, ego-centric, short sighted and largely uninformed. Democrat's greatest consistent political failure is that they appeal to people's brains rather than to their hearts. That they appeal based on facts, rather than capitalize on people's emotions.

M4A is an excellent example of this. Factually, it is cheaper for everyone. You pay far less, and just to somebody named "Uncle Sam" in the form of a tax rather than "Blue Cross Blue Shield" in the form of a bill. Emotionally, the overwhelming majority of Americans are plenty happy with their health care, don't really want to exchange it for M4A, and don't really give much of a fig about the people who don't have healthcare, or who healthcare backrupts.

Does that mean Democrats abandon their M4A agenda? No. It means you maneuver around American's healthcare prejudices and misconceptions. Right now, Democrats are basically saying "you're wrong, and here's why" in so many words. Since when is that an effective way to convince a person of anything? All it does is put a person in the position of either hardening their position - which they are likely to do - or admitting they are wrong, which people almost never do.

The way Democrats win is quite simple. Drop the policy arguments. Drop the specifics. Tell the special interest groups who want flags to be waved to sit down and shut their fucking mouths. And then go around the swing states and terrify people about what Trump will do to their jobs, retirement, healthcare and children's education.

It will work. It will work big. And then in 2021, President Democrat can resume making the public case for Medicare For All, hopefully with an emotional-egocentric argument, rather than a logical, educated one.

The default Democratic position should be: presume people are the worst. Because they are. People are stupid. People are weasels. People are prejudiced. People are egocentric. People are highly emotional, illogical and inconsistent. Now accepting the sheer awfulness of your fellow man, make it work for you.

[Bodakane]

Yep.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/u...gtype=Homepage


So first things first... It's one poll, and it conflicts with other recent polls... and it's early. Basically nothing that has happened this year matters any more than what happened in 2015 or in 2011 did for the elections the following year. We don't talk about "President" Bobby Jindal right? So the costs are low.

But this should be a kick in the ass to Democrats who are seemingly hell bent on giving Donald Trump a second term by getting in their own way, rather than let Donald Trump self destruct.

Case in point, Elizabeth Warren dropping her M4A bomb the day AFTER Trump suffers one of the largest humilations a President has suffered in the past 100 years. Instead of letting Trump go into the weekend with the humiliation of the House vote, she drops her fantastical M4A plan on Friday.

These are the kinds of unforced errors that will give Trump a second term. These are the kind of things that the very cosmopolitan, very progressive, very pleased with themselves campaign advisers of Warren, will coast her into defeat, just as those people did with Hillary in 2016. Hell, Saturday Night Live opened with a Warren / M4A sketch.

Progressives may think this is specifically about M4A. It's not. It's about how to fucking beat Trump. Trump, the most unpopular President in 90 years, is eminently beatable. But this is not a policy election. It will never be a policy election. Least of all policies that are DoA thanks to Democrats not having anywhere close to 60 votes in the Senate.

This election is a referendum on Trump. And the message must be: Trump is corrupt, self deals, and violates the constitution regularly. He is a friend to autocrats and violates American values. He is going to take your health care and your retirement. Don't talk about what Democrats would do. Scare people to death about Trump. It will work. Negative politics is a more powerful force in this country than positive politics. It's Democrat's rationalism that they apply to other people that thinks it is some other way. They are mistaken.

Is this a doom or something? No. But it's a warning. This Primary Season side show must draw to a close and soon. Democrats have been doing 1 debate a month. In February that will become two. Then three. If it's March, after Super Tuesday, when 2 of the 3 candidates fate is all but sealed, and Warren and Sanders are still going down their progressive wishlist, even IF both are the nominee presumptive, they're fucking themselves in the General Election.

Seriously Democrats. Do anything and everything to beat Trump. Once you win, talk about M4A to your hearts delight. Assume Donald Trump is a formidable candidate who will be hard to beat.

I disagree.

Warren is talking to Dems right now as are all the Dem candidates. They are trying to get the nom. All Dems know these candidates are 100% against Trump. What they need to do is appeal to Dems. Besides getting the policy out now, so when they get the nom they can go after Trump directly, makes the most sense.

[Skroe]

I disagree.

Warren is talking to Dems right now as are all the Dem candidates. They are trying to get the nom. All Dems know these candidates are 100% against Trump. What they need to do is appeal to Dems. Besides getting the policy out now, so when they get the nom they can go after Trump directly, makes the most sense.

Well I think that's very wrong.

What she is doing is giving Trump a massive ammo clip to use against her in the General Election. Which he will. Even Beto's stunt about gun control will come back to haunt Democrats. It will ALL be used.

And furthermore Democrats have been down this road with Obama, who ran to Hillary's left in the 2008 Primary, and then swung hard to the center in the General Election. And then as President, largely locked progressive Democrats out of the room.

Progressive Democrats, particularly their established special interest groups, will not tolerate a repeat of that history. The next Democratic President who seeks the progressive nod, as they see it, will reciprocate by making progressives the kingmakers. Which is what all special interest groups want. It's the same thing on the right. It's how Tea Party groups ascended. I wrote about this in some depth a few weeks ago.

Warren is putting herself in a position, next September, to be asked to standby, or recant, her primary M4A position. Both of which utterly screw her. Standing by it makes her a socialist in the eyes of the people she needs to win. Recanting it will alienate progressives.


Here's the problem as I see it. I'm not convinced all Democrats are playing precisely on the same team. I think there are MANY Democrats who would vote for anyone to see Trump gone. I think there are also some Democrats - and they have outsized influence due to their role in the primary - who see Trump as an opportunity to advance a progressive agenda. Which he is most certainly not. That is one giant trap. And they are telling Democrats to walk right into it. Mistaking American's widespread disdain for Trump as an opening to advance progressiveism will lead to disaster. If you want to see a microcosm preview of that, witness what is going to happen on December 15th in the United Kingdom, when the Labour Party is looking to be shallacked by the Tories. Yes, the electorate is different, but the strategies are not. Labour under Jeremy Corbyn has seen the Tory-led Brexit, and all around Tory shambolic government as an opportunity to advance socialism, moving both the party to the hard left and the country leftward. Instead, they're looking at losing seats to the Tories despite the Tories being terrible in government, and terrible at making a case for themselves, because Brexit is in fact, NOT an opportunity for socialism as opposition to it cuts across MANY ideological lines.

Back in America also, let's not forget, Bernie Sanders. It's very likely that Biden and Warren will clean up most of the contest through Super Tuesday, with Sanders winning a handful of delegates. But does anyone think for a moment he is going to bow out in early March? No. He's going to go right until the bitter end, despite being mathematically eliminated after Super Tuesday, just to make sure that the nominee-presumptive, either Warren or Biden, don't suddenly find their inner Obama. He's going to keep on the M4A track and other progressive positions that are damaging in the general, well into the season in which candidates need to generalize.

He has been a cancer on American politics and I'm glad this is his last bow.

The root question here is: are all we in Anti-Trump - Democrats, NeverTrumpers, conservatives, independents - all on the same team this election or not? Because I will vote for any Democrat. Even Bernie fucking Sanders. I've put my political agenda in a box, and stuffed it in the attic, to be revisited in the 2030s. That plays no role in my decision making. The only thing that matters to me is who can beat Trump and rip out the cancer of corruption in this country that has rapidly metastasized after being managed for some years. Democrats have a GOLDEN message in how to beat Trump - anti-corruption. It will cut across party lines, legitimately. M4A and other progressive positions will not. Those are thins you do when elected.

So this is the frustrating part: how can Progressives be so stupid as to not be on on the secret message? Why are progressives demanding this ridiculous public display of affection to progressive ideas, when the SMART route, the winning route, is a wink and a nod, and then do-nothing, say nothing on that topic, until elected?

Democrats have done NOTHING fatal to their campaigns yet. And it's still very early. But this shit has to get figured out now. And if it's February, and we're still talking about Medicare For All and caring what people in motherfucking Brooklyn thing, I'll tell you right now, Trump will be re-elected, all our efforts will have been for nothing, and Democrats will deserve it.

[kaelleria]

Well I think that's very wrong.

What she is doing is giving Trump a massive ammo clip to use against her in the General Election. Which he will. Even Beto's stunt about gun control will come back to haunt Democrats. It will ALL be used.

And furthermore Democrats have been down this road with Obama, who ran to Hillary's left in the 2008 Primary, and then swung hard to the center in the General Election. And then as President, largely locked progressive Democrats out of the room.

Progressive Democrats, particularly their established special interest groups, will not tolerate a repeat of that history. The next Democratic President who seeks the progressive nod, as they see it, will reciprocate by making progressives the kingmakers. Which is what all special interest groups want. It's the same thing on the right. It's how Tea Party groups ascended. I wrote about this in some depth a few weeks ago.

Warren is putting herself in a position, next September, to be asked to standby, or recant, her primary M4A position. Both of which utterly screw her. Standing by it makes her a socialist in the eyes of the people she needs to win. Recanting it will alienate progressives.


Here's the problem as I see it. I'm not convinced all Democrats are playing precisely on the same team. I think there are MANY Democrats who would vote for anyone to see Trump gone. I think there are also some Democrats - and they have outsized influence due to their role in the primary - who see Trump as an opportunity to advance a progressive agenda. Which he is most certainly not. That is one giant trap. And they are telling Democrats to walk right into it. Mistaking American's widespread disdain for Trump as an opening to advance progressiveism will lead to disaster. If you want to see a microcosm preview of that, witness what is going to happen on December 15th in the United Kingdom, when the Labour Party is looking to be shallacked by the Tories. Yes, the electorate is different, but the strategies are not. Labour under Jeremy Corbyn has seen the Tory-led Brexit, and all around Tory shambolic government as an opportunity to advance socialism, moving both the party to the hard left and the country leftward. Instead, they're looking at losing seats to the Tories despite the Tories being terrible in government, and terrible at making a case for themselves, because Brexit is in fact, NOT an opportunity for socialism as opposition to it cuts across MANY ideological lines.

Back in America also, let's not forget, Bernie Sanders. It's very likely that Biden and Warren will clean up most of the contest through Super Tuesday, with Sanders winning a handful of delegates. But does anyone think for a moment he is going to bow out in early March? No. He's going to go right until the bitter end, despite being mathematically eliminated after Super Tuesday, just to make sure that the nominee-presumptive, either Warren or Biden, don't suddenly find their inner Obama. He's going to keep on the M4A track and other progressive positions that are damaging in the general, well into the season in which candidates need to generalize.

He has been a cancer on American politics and I'm glad this is his last bow.

The root question here is: are all we in Anti-Trump - Democrats, NeverTrumpers, conservatives, independents - all on the same team this election or not? Because I will vote for any Democrat. Even Bernie fucking Sanders. I've put my political agenda in a box, and stuffed it in the attic, to be revisited in the 2030s. That plays no role in my decision making. The only thing that matters to me is who can beat Trump and rip out the cancer of corruption in this country that has rapidly metastasized after being managed for some years. Democrats have a GOLDEN message in how to beat Trump - anti-corruption. It will cut across party lines, legitimately. M4A and other progressive positions will not. Those are thins you do when elected.

So this is the frustrating part: how can Progressives be so stupid as to not be on on the secret message? Why are progressives demanding this ridiculous public display of affection to progressive ideas, when the SMART route, the winning route, is a wink and a nod, and then do-nothing, say nothing on that topic, until elected?

Democrats have done NOTHING fatal to their campaigns yet. And it's still very early. But this shit has to get figured out now. And if it's February, and we're still talking about Medicare For All and caring what people in motherfucking Brooklyn thing, I'll tell you right now, Trump will be re-elected, all our efforts will have been for nothing, and Democrats will deserve it.

Wait, wait, wait... you mean the thing I've been backing up with polling since early July turned out to be true?

[Skroe]

Wait, wait, wait... you mean the thing I've been backing up with polling since early July turned out to be true?

It means I'm getting *real* fucking sick of explaining how needs must supersede wants, when one's house is on fire.

It means I can't believe we're discussing transformational, epochal national policy like M4A, or the Green New Deal or anything "big" at a time there is a very real risk that if the next 2 elections go badly, American democracy will be functionally vanquished for years to come.

I really question if some progressive (certainly not all) understand how close to the brink we are. And to gamble with the future our democracy is pure insanity. Made even more insane because 60 Democratic Senators who would vote for M4A won't be a thing after 2020, 2022, 2024 or 2026. So what's the fucking point of the gamble?

Anyway, as I've said... I'm doing my part IRL. But if it goes bad and the Authoritarianism we're very much on the brink of comes into being, I'm taking my riches and moving to Singapore (so to speak) while the people trapped here fight to the death over the last scraps of riches of a fallen empire.

[Endus]

It means I'm getting *real* fucking sick of explaining how needs must supersede wants, when one's house is on fire.

It means I can't believe we're discussing transformational, epochal national policy like M4A, or the Green New Deal or anything "big" at a time there is a very real risk that if the next 2 elections go badly, American democracy will be functionally vanquished for years to come.

I really question if some progressive (certainly not all) understand how close to the brink we are. And to gamble with the future our democracy is pure insanity. Made even more insane because 60 Democratic Senators who would vote for M4A won't be a thing after 2020, 2022, 2024 or 2026. So what's the fucking point of the gamble?

Anyway, as I've said... I'm doing my part IRL. But if it goes bad and the Authoritarianism we're very much on the brink of comes into being, I'm taking my riches and moving to Singapore (so to speak) while the people trapped here fight to the death over the last scraps of riches of a fallen empire.

What you're fundamentally arguing, when you say this, is that left-wingers are too left-wing in views for you, a conservative, to find palatable.

And that you're concerned that so many conservatives in the country will blindly vote for an objectively terrible candidate rather than risk any intrusion of any remotely left-wing values.

If the latter is true, then the country is already lost. It doesn't matter who the Democrats put up. If you'll vote for Trump over Warren, you'll vote for Trump over Biden, and you'd vote for Trump over George W. Bush. Hell, let's recall they DID vote for Trump over Jeb Bush, among basically everyone else of relevance in the Republican Party.

The issue is demographic, and trying to address that by encouraging left-wingers to ideologically abandon their principles is just . . . not ever gonna work. It just guarantees that if the Democrats do win, they're a lot more right-wing and thus more palatable to you, personally.

[cubby]

Pelosi warns Dem candidates to back off progressive platform. Interesting.

[kaelleria]

What you're fundamentally arguing, when you say this, is that left-wingers are too left-wing in views for you, a conservative, to find palatable.

And that you're concerned that so many conservatives in the country will blindly vote for an objectively terrible candidate rather than risk any intrusion of any remotely left-wing values.

If the latter is true, then the country is already lost. It doesn't matter who the Democrats put up. If you'll vote for Trump over Warren, you'll vote for Trump over Biden, and you'd vote for Trump over George W. Bush. Hell, let's recall they DID vote for Trump over Jeb Bush, among basically everyone else of relevance in the Republican Party.

The issue is demographic, and trying to address that by encouraging left-wingers to ideologically abandon their principles is just . . . not ever gonna work. It just guarantees that if the Democrats do win, they're a lot more right-wing and thus more palatable to you, personally.

That's kind of ignoring all the polling showing that the top concern among primary voters is beating Trump and that people are worried about candidates going too far left.

I've literally never supported a Republican in my entire life... More moderate candidates appeal to me because I think they have a better shot at winning the general election and implementing something rather than losing horribly because it's easy to attack Warren and Sanders for taking positions that large swaths of the country find unpalatable.

If I had a magic wand and I could give Warren the WH with a 60 vote progressive majority in the Senate to implement her policies, I would. But reality doesn't work like that.

There is no shame in playing to win electorally if it gets Trump out of office. You're not compromising your ideals, you're saving the country.

[cubby]

What you're fundamentally arguing, when you say this, is that left-wingers are too left-wing in views for you, a conservative, to find palatable.

And that you're concerned that so many conservatives in the country will blindly vote for an objectively terrible candidate rather than risk any intrusion of any remotely left-wing values.

If the latter is true, then the country is already lost. It doesn't matter who the Democrats put up. If you'll vote for Trump over Warren, you'll vote for Trump over Biden, and you'd vote for Trump over George W. Bush. Hell, let's recall they DID vote for Trump over Jeb Bush, among basically everyone else of relevance in the Republican Party.

The issue is demographic, and trying to address that by encouraging left-wingers to ideologically abandon their principles is just . . . not ever gonna work. It just guarantees that if the Democrats do win, they're a lot more right-wing and thus more palatable to you, personally.

I would have to disagree with this assessment. The argument here is based entirely on the fact that our national election system is really fucked up - using perhaps the most antiquated system of choosing a president rather than just a simple majority vote. Because of that, we have to play the Electoral Game, and ignore a lot of other factors to get someone in the White House.

If the election was purely most votes win - we wouldn't be in the dire straights we are now.

But as @kaelleria pointed out, we have to play to win. And to do that, we have to focus on key states (and therefore key counties within those states) to win. And to win those, we need to woo conservatives who might still vote for Trump. Does that suck? Yes. But it's what we have until we change it (which is almost likely to never happen - given SCOTUS' conservative rulings - but that's another thread).

[Fugus]

I would have to disagree with this assessment. The argument here is based entirely on the fact that our national election system is really fucked up - using perhaps the most antiquated system of choosing a president rather than just a simple majority vote. Because of that, we have to play the Electoral Game, and ignore a lot of other factors to get someone in the White House.

If the election was purely most votes win - we wouldn't be in the dire straights we are now.

But as @kaelleria pointed out, we have to play to win. And to do that, we have to focus on key states (and therefore key counties within those states) to win. And to win those, we need to woo conservatives who might still vote for Trump. Does that suck? Yes. But it's what we have until we change it (which is almost likely to never happen - given SCOTUS' conservative rulings - but that's another thread).

Can honestly say this, if we ever have candidates who come in talking about moving to ranked choice voting, banning gerrymandering and electronic voting, and removing the influence of the EC and actually reapportioning congress. I don't care what their affiliation is, I am voting for them.

All this crap shouldn't be needed were we have to avoid actually pushing for stuff that helps because too many uneducated bumpkins are ideologically against it and think it hurts because they don't want to learn.

[Elegiac]

Yep.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/u...gtype=Homepage


So first things first... It's one poll, and it conflicts with other recent polls... and it's early. Basically nothing that has happened this year matters any more than what happened in 2015 or in 2011 did for the elections the following year. We don't talk about "President" Bobby Jindal right? So the costs are low.

But this should be a kick in the ass to Democrats who are seemingly hell bent on giving Donald Trump a second term by getting in their own way, rather than let Donald Trump self destruct.

Case in point, Elizabeth Warren dropping her M4A bomb the day AFTER Trump suffers one of the largest humilations a President has suffered in the past 100 years. Instead of letting Trump go into the weekend with the humiliation of the House vote, she drops her fantastical M4A plan on Friday.

These are the kinds of unforced errors that will give Trump a second term. These are the kind of things that the very cosmopolitan, very progressive, very pleased with themselves campaign advisers of Warren, will coast her into defeat, just as those people did with Hillary in 2016. Hell, Saturday Night Live opened with a Warren / M4A sketch.

Progressives may think this is specifically about M4A. It's not. It's about how to fucking beat Trump. Trump, the most unpopular President in 90 years, is eminently beatable. But this is not a policy election. It will never be a policy election. Least of all policies that are DoA thanks to Democrats not having anywhere close to 60 votes in the Senate.

This election is a referendum on Trump. And the message must be: Trump is corrupt, self deals, and violates the constitution regularly. He is a friend to autocrats and violates American values. He is going to take your health care and your retirement. Don't talk about what Democrats would do. Scare people to death about Trump. It will work. Negative politics is a more powerful force in this country than positive politics. It's Democrat's rationalism that they apply to other people that thinks it is some other way. They are mistaken.

Is this a doom or something? No. But it's a warning. This Primary Season side show must draw to a close and soon. Democrats have been doing 1 debate a month. In February that will become two. Then three. If it's March, after Super Tuesday, when 2 of the 3 candidates fate is all but sealed, and Warren and Sanders are still going down their progressive wishlist, even IF both are the nominee presumptive, they're fucking themselves in the General Election.

Seriously Democrats. Do anything and everything to beat Trump. Once you win, talk about M4A to your hearts delight. Assume Donald Trump is a formidable candidate who will be hard to beat.

Ok Boomer.

- - - Updated - - -

What you're fundamentally arguing, when you say this, is that left-wingers are too left-wing in views for you, a conservative, to find palatable.

And that you're concerned that so many conservatives in the country will blindly vote for an objectively terrible candidate rather than risk any intrusion of any remotely left-wing values.

If the latter is true, then the country is already lost. It doesn't matter who the Democrats put up. If you'll vote for Trump over Warren, you'll vote for Trump over Biden, and you'd vote for Trump over George W. Bush. Hell, let's recall they DID vote for Trump over Jeb Bush, among basically everyone else of relevance in the Republican Party.

The issue is demographic, and trying to address that by encouraging left-wingers to ideologically abandon their principles is just . . . not ever gonna work. It just guarantees that if the Democrats do win, they're a lot more right-wing and thus more palatable to you, personally.

Pretty much this.

99% of electoral "advice" we see coming out is that in order for Democrats to win, they have to campaign as Republicans.

And if America is genuinely at the point where the choice is between Trump and a milquetoast neoliberal who will do fuck all as the planet is cooking to death and the rich continue to suck up every available resource?

Fuck it. This country doesn't deserve to survive, if that's the case. Let it die on its broken electoral structure and hope whatever comes next doesn't make the same mistake.

[draynay]

All this talk of catering to the whims of fools is the sort of thing I expect to hear from kokolums, I don't intend to use my vote to choose slow rot over fast moving rot.

[Elegiac]

All this talk of catering to the whims of fools is the sort of thing I expect to hear from kokolums, I don't intend to use my vote to choose slow rot over fast moving rot.

Hey if we put Biden in we might get a few extra years before the country goes full Chile.

[Skroe]

What you're fundamentally arguing, when you say this, is that left-wingers are too left-wing in views for you, a conservative, to find palatable.

And that you're concerned that so many conservatives in the country will blindly vote for an objectively terrible candidate rather than risk any intrusion of any remotely left-wing values.

If the latter is true, then the country is already lost. It doesn't matter who the Democrats put up. If you'll vote for Trump over Warren, you'll vote for Trump over Biden, and you'd vote for Trump over George W. Bush. Hell, let's recall they DID vote for Trump over Jeb Bush, among basically everyone else of relevance in the Republican Party.

The issue is demographic, and trying to address that by encouraging left-wingers to ideologically abandon their principles is just . . . not ever gonna work. It just guarantees that if the Democrats do win, they're a lot more right-wing and thus more palatable to you, personally.[/QUOTE]

Except Endus I'm not arguing that at all. In fact what bewilders me is you even said that, when I have explicitly mentioned in the post directly above the one you quoted (and in countless others), that I've put away my personal politics for years to come. It's in a box, in the attic, to be opened in the 2030s. Maybe.

Do you understand? Smaller government? Lower taxes? Deregulation? Economic policy? Irrelevant. All of it. Those are concerns... luxuries really, we cannot afford. My concerns are fundamenta: will America continue to be a democracy? In what form? Can our fundamental instutions be repaired and defended? Can the creeping corruption that lead to a tsunami of corruption be reversed? As I see it the questions that dog America are not one as parochial as grandma and her goddamn pills, but akin to what fragile democracies like Iraq or Malaysia or Brazil or Colombia face. We are really in the shit. We're 2 elections away from losing it.

I will vote Bernie Sanders despite the fact that I think his policies are terrible, he'd be a godawful sham of a President and his personality cult is disturbing. I also thing he isn't a threat to Democracy. I think he is a small-d democrat. Same for all the other Democrats running. Hell I already voted for Elizabeth Warren. I'm from Massachusetts. I voted for her for Senate in 2018. I even voted against my Governor, Charlie Baker, a Republican and the most popular Governor in the country. I vote for Baker in 2014 and donated the maximum amount. But he's a Republican. And Republicans don't get my vote in this age, because they are the party of authoritarianism, not democracy. No matter who much I agree with Baker's policies (substantially), he won't get my vote, because democracy comes before mere policies.

But again I'm also from Massachusetts. My vote doesn't matter. We're voting for a Democrat no matter what. I'd vote for an Avacado with a D engraved on it, over Trump. I would probably do a better job.

No Endus, my concern is with suburban and rural people in largely 6 states - Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Florida, North Carolina, Arizona. I think very little of those people. Have you read my post about people in Wisconsin? The Anti-Trump PAC I work for is deeply involved there. It's our largest operation outside of Massachusetts. My opinion of your average Cheesehead suburbanite is subterranean. I couldn't mask my contempt for their backwardness, their parochialism, their simpleness if I tried.

But we need them to come out just one, in 2020 and reject Trump. That's all we need from them. A few more people on the Democratic side, than they did in 2016.

So when I issue opinions on this topic, it is not for me. There is no "me" in this. I'm politically savvy enough to get how the system works to know how DoA the entire Democratic wishlist is due to the Senate, but even if I weren't as I said this a moment for defense of the fundamentals of liberal democracy, not traditional politics.

I say what I say, because I've seen, via my PAC, where Wisconsinites knuckledragging common man, and I see 5000 light years away, where Democrats are, and I wonder how to bridge that gap. I say what I say because I see Wisconsinites delivering Trump a second term - decisively too - are too far up their own ass with what they want out of the election, they haven't stopped to ask the borderline deplorables of Wisconsin who can be swayed exactly whats it going to take to get them to switch team.

And thats the point I'm driving home. Democrats have completely and utterly failed to make the case that what those Wisconsinite yokels want is M4A, the Green New Deal, and all that crap is. What Democrats are doing is doubling down hard on "get out the base" electoral tactics, in vogue since 2004, except it hasn't won a single Presidential election ever. Bush won in 2004, Obama in 2008 and 2012, and Trump in 2016, all by expanding the base. Movement conservatives and Democratic activists though love the "Get Out the Base" approach because it enriches their groups and makes them kingmakers, win or lose.

Progressive Democrats need to basically sit down, shut up, and let the centrist wing convince the Wisconsinite surburban yokels into blaming Trump for all their problems and convincing them that Democrats will do a marginally better job. And then when elected, Democrats can indulge themselves.

I don't think Democrats have it in them though. I don't think they have the discipline. That's why fight as hard as I am - and I'm putting real time and money into stopping Trump beyond just writing 1000 word essays on MMO-OT - I think if Trump loses in 2020, it'll be 50% dumb luck at this point.

America is in a lot of trouble. It's a shame the Democratic Party can't be the small-d democratic Party, for just one election.

[Elegiac]

America is in a lot of trouble. It's a shame the Democratic Party can't be the small-d democratic Party, for just one election.

Lol, what?

The Democratic Party has been small-d since the Reagan era, and Trump still won. As did Bush, twice.

Again; let the country die if the only way to save it is by pandering to racists. If America is at that state, it isn't worth saving.

[Skroe]

Ok Boomer.

I'm sorry, you mean "Okay dude working at a PAC that's focusing on anti-Trump messaging in Wisconsin".

You're going to give Trump a second term, Elegiac, and not even realize how you did it. You are going to do what the hard right did after 2012, and blame the election loss on all the wrong things, namely "not getting the base out enough" and "not having a candidate who was true to your principles" or some variation thereof.

Politically, the Tea Party and Progressive Democratic movement are exactly the same. I know this because I've seen it first hand and been talking about it here since 2015. This is not moral equivalence. This is about the approach to Politics. They are brother and sister. That is not something that democracy (small d) can afford in 2020.

By the way, this "boomer", will be writing a big goddamn check to Elizabeth Warren, a candidate I already voted for for Senator, should she become the nominee, even though I share none of her political opinions.

How much exactly will you be contributing, zoomer? Because money is how politics works here. Everyone has opinions. Sometimes I like to actually read them to remember how silly they can be. But money is what makes things work in 21st century America.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol, what?

The Democratic Party has been small-d since the Reagan era, and Trump still won. As did Bush, twice.

Again; let the country die if the only way to save it is by pandering to racists. If America is at that state, it isn't worth saving.

I don't think you know what I mean by "small-d democratic". It was a bit of poetic licence I grant you.

Democratic Party = the center-left party of the United States.
Democratic Values = the political positions of the Democratic Party
democratic values = generic liberal democratic values, not tied to any political parties. Rule of law, free and fair elections, transparency, anti-corruption, etc.
small-d democratic Party = being the party of liberal democratic values.


basically Republican and republican and Democratic and democratic mean entirely different things.

[Elegiac]

I'm sorry, you mean

I'm pretty sure I said what I mean and will continue to say as such to anyone who insists that the Democrat nominee needs to be America's most sterling Republican.

[Skroe]

All this talk of catering to the whims of fools is the sort of thing I expect to hear from kokolums, I don't intend to use my vote to choose slow rot over fast moving rot.

Never become a trauma surgeon. Because evidently, you don't believe in triage. Just cures.

That's the key gulf here between people like me and people like you, even though we're nominally on the same side. This is a moment for triage. We have to stop the bleeding. We have to answer the emergency. You folks... you want to skip to long after the patient has been stabilized, into how to reverse the condition.

It's a good thought. You are not the first. Go ahead. Try. See how it cataclysmic it is to try and cure the patient before they're triaged.

Trump 2020... made possible by progressives who wanted the sun, and moon and everything in between in one go.

[Elegiac]

I don't think you know what I mean by "small-d democratic". It was a bit of poetic licence I grant you.

Democratic Party = the center-left party of the United States.
Democratic Values = the political positions of the Democratic Party
democratic values = generic liberal democratic values, not tied to any political parties. Rule of law, free and fair elections, transparency, anti-corruption, etc.
small-d democratic Party = being the party of liberal democratic values.

basically Republican and republican and Democratic and democratic mean entirely different things.

Again; Democrats have been doing this for decades. The entire premise of the Third Way was doing what you are recommending here - watering down principle for political advantage.

And I'm gonna give you a hint, Skroe: if people can't be assed to think critically about something that actually impacts them immediately like healthcare, they won't do so about abstractions like electoral fairness or political integrity.

Like Endus said; you're arguing that the Democrats can't win because they aren't Republicans.

- - - Updated - - -

Never become a trauma surgeon. Because evidently, you don't believe in triage. Just cures.

That's the key gulf here between people like me and people like you, even though we're nominally on the same side. This is a moment for triage. We have to stop the bleeding. We have to answer the emergency. You folks... you want to skip to long after the patient has been stabilized, into how to reverse the condition.

It's a good thought. You are not the first. Go ahead. Try. See how it cataclysmic it is to try and cure the patient before they're triaged.

Trump 2020... made possible by progressives who wanted the sun, and moon and everything in between in one go.

Neoliberalism isn't triage, it's palliative. That's what you're not getting.