Kiljaedan and Nathrezim didnt create Frostmourne & Lich King Armor

[Goldielocks]

Some people don't realize that speculation isn't the same as interpretation, though

For example, about Kil'Jaeden and the Nathrezim creating the Helm, the event is "Kil'Jaeden and the Nathrezim created the Helm of Dominator". "They forged it" is an interpretation of the event - you explain the meaning of it. However, "They forged it by their own without any help from others" are just assumption and speculation, not really the interpretation of the event. Elaborating upon and / or adding your guess into an event is not interpreting it, but speculating / assuming instead.

Not even close to an assumption. The Nathrezim in WC3 could control the Scourge on their own. No Shadowlands doohickey.

Ergo, it’s their power running through the Lich King. This can’t happen if the opposite were true.

[Taeldorian]

What exactly was retconned? Ion specifically said in an interview that KJ and the nathrezim still crafted all of the Lich Kings stuff. The only thing we’re learning now is how it’s done. That doesn’t seem like a retcon, just additional information that doesn’t contradict anything we already knew regarding how it was made.

I mean I don’t think this is something to get upset about personally but it seems some users get very riled up over lore/story for WoW. I have no idea why, that shit has always been the weakest part of the game.

[Black Goat]

I really don't see what's up with the fake outrage.

So we knew KJ created it. Now we know where KJ created it. Why are peoples' panties getting twisted because of this, again? This is classic "Give the players gold bars, they'll complain they're too heavy." scenario.

I actually am excited for Shadowlands.

[Aucald]

Some people don't realize that speculation isn't the same as interpretation, though

For example, about Kil'Jaeden and the Nathrezim creating the Helm, the event is "Kil'Jaeden and the Nathrezim created the Helm of Dominator". "They forged it" is an interpretation of the event - you explain the meaning of it. However, "They forged it by their own without any help from others" are just assumption and speculation, not really the interpretation of the event. Elaborating upon and / or adding your guess into an event is not interpreting it, but speculating / assuming instead.

People also don't clearly grok the difference between a retcon and a recontextualization, as it were. A retcon is an objective alteration of known fact, a retroactive change to an existing continuity or order of events. Recontextualization is the synthesis of new information with old information, but in a manner where the actual events of the past are not altered. The idea that the Shadowlands were somehow involved in the creation of the Helm of Domination, or possibly even Frostmourne, isn't a retcon - it's just information that recontextualizes how we understand the old order of events. The demons still created the Helm, it was still given to Ner'zhul by Kil'jaeden, but now we know more about the process by which the Helm was created, what went into it, and where the idea (or the process of its creation) was derived. Nothing about the Helm, Ner'zhul, or the demons' role changes. Now if it the new information said that Kil'jaeden specifically didn't create the Helm but rather found it in the Shadowlands, or stole it, then that would be a true retcon to the known order or nature of events.

The origin of the Draenei is a retcon - it literally changed the original story of Sargeras' corruption as well as the nature of the demons imprisoned within Mardum. The discovery that the Void Lords' existence was behind Sargeras' motives for forming the Burning Legion and igniting the Burning Crusade isn't specifically a retcon, more a recontextualization of his motives. You could say the nature of his corruption via Fel energy is a something of a retcon, although that was never really adequately explained in the original lore outside of it simply happening.

[maccajoe]

Dsnt even say that they didnt create it just say we will find out more and the story behind it.
FYI the entire culture around the Burning Legion has always been about adopting other cultures into their folds. Thats literally all they do. If they dont eradicate your culture it becomes part of the Legion.
Just fkn wow wiki how many species are apart of the Burning Legion.

[Goldielocks]

People also don't clearly grok the difference between a retcon and a recontextualization, as it were. A retcon is an objective alteration of known fact, a retroactive change to an existing continuity or order of events. Recontextualization is the synthesis of new information with old information, but in a manner where the actual events of the past are not altered. The idea that the Shadowlands were somehow involved in the creation of the Helm of Domination, or possibly even Frostmourne, isn't a retcon - it's just information that recontextualizes how we understand the old order of events. The demons still created the Helm, it was still given to Ner'zhul by Kil'jaeden, but now we know more about the process by which the Helm was created, what went into it, and where the idea (or the process of its creation) was derived. Nothing about the Helm, Ner'zhul, or the demons' role changes. Now if it the new information said that Kil'jaeden specifically didn't create the Helm but rather found it in the Shadowlands, or stole it, then that would be a true retcon to the known order or nature of events.

I disagree. You’re leaving out the very important part that these things don’t exist in a vacuum and have to work together with the overall story.

It’s clear that this “recontextualization” is designed to have Bolvar be connected to the Shadowlands. The problem is that the Lich King is not special. He never was. All of his abilities were displayed by the Nathrezim who had no relic or special item. It was their power. It always was.

So, in order for the concept of the Lich King’s origin to be anything more than a Legion bitch, the Nathrezim have to change. If they don’t change, then Blizzard is just writing this with no brain cells.

[Qualia]

Not even close to an assumption. The Nathrezim in WC3 could control the Scourge on their own. No Shadowlands doohickey.

Ergo, it’s their power running through the Lich King. This can’t happen if the opposite were true.

Did it explicitly say anywhere that their power didn't come from Shadowlands, or related to it? Necromancy and Death power (or whatever energies power Necromancy) are related to Shadowlands. We just didn't know Shadowlands exist back then and all that (did we? I can't remember so I assume we didn't).

[Goldielocks]

Did it say anywhere that their power didn't come from Shadowlands, or related to it? Necromancy and Death power (or whatever energies power Necromancy) are related to Shadowlands.

All necromancy comes from the Shadowlands. Its not significant. The entire point here is that they’re trying to paint the Lich King as unique when he’s not. He’s no different than a Dreadlord.

[horbindr]

The way i explain it is that the nathrezim are originally from the shadowlands, and somehow found a way out eons ago.

would go a long way to explain their uniqueness as a race in wow, even among demons. they have always been much more shadow/deathy than fel based after all.

[Aucald]

I disagree. You’re leaving out the very important part that these things don’t exist in a vacuum and have to work together with the overall story.

It’s clear that this “recontextualization” is designed to have Bolvar be connected to the Shadowlands. The problem is that the Lich King is not special. He never was. All of his abilities were displayed by the Nathrezim who had no relic or special item. It was their power. It always was.

So, in order for the concept of the Lich King’s origin to be anything more than a Legion bitch, the Nathrezim have to change. If they don’t change, then Blizzard is just writing this with no brain cells.

That these things don't exist in a vacuum is the very reason recontexualization is a thing, I would say.

Bolvar, and the Lich King before him, was always connected to the Shadowlands by dint of being the Lich King - in control over the forces of death and undeath in the physical universe, having literal control over ghosts, spectres, and spirit-beings like the Val'kyr. Those abilities came from somewhere. We assume it was from the Nathrezim's Necromantic abilities (which they showcased all the way back in the War of the Ancients, raising undead Night Elves as a terror tactic and so forth), but it was never made explicit or explored in any real sense. The assumption was always there, but it was never canonized, never explained in any real detail.

The Nathrezim may indeed change as well, or be recontextualized as we learn more. Where did they learn Necromancy from, after all? The other demons don't seem to use it in any real capacity. Changing lore isn't a retcon, it's a natural and expected progression as we learn more and new information is unveiled. Ongoing stories don't remain static or set in stone, after all - new details can change how we view old information, new events can even turn previous conceptions upside-down entirely. Nothing about that relationship is a retcon.

[TigTone]

All necromancy comes from the Shadowlands. Its not significant. The entire point here is that they’re trying to paint the Lich King as unique when he’s not. He’s no different than a Dreadlord.

He is unique. What Dreadlords has the power to command the entire scourage all over the world from where they sit.

[Qualia]

KJ having anything to do with the forging of the Helm and Sword is as much of retcon as the Shadowlands having anything to do with it. Helm and Sword are a Nathrezim only thing. It's why the sword didn't Kill Mal, because Dread Lords were shielded against it's power from the moment they created it.

Possibly, but not necessarily. Whether it is a retcon or not is still to be seen, because all we know was that the Nathrezim forged Frostmourne (they didn't even specifically mentioned that the Nathrezim alone forged the Helm and Armor as well, mind you, so whether they alone created the Helm isn't confirmed). If it's going to be revealed that Kil'Jaeden forged Frostmourne instead of the Nathrezim, it would be a retcon. However, it could be that (for example), the Nathrezim forged the Helm, and they together with Kil'Jaeden enchanted it afterwards.

Edit: I just looked the interview up, here is the gist of it for reference (paraphrased MTL, so something might be incorrect, I don't think any is, though): "About what you asked, the Helm of Domination is an object from Shadowlands. Kil'Jaeden used energy of Shadowlands to create the Helm of Domination to hold Ner'zhul's spirit. As I said earlier, the Frozen Throne is the junction of Azeroth's Life and Death - that's why the cask hold Ner'zhul there instead of somewhere else".

All necromancy comes from the Shadowlands. Its not significant. The entire point here is that they’re trying to paint the Lich King as unique when he’s not. He’s no different than a Dreadlord.

Last time I checked, no Dreadlord was wearing the Helm of Domination, and none of them were anywhere nearly as powerful as the Lich King as we know him. So, he is different from a Dreadlord. However, if you meant that the energy they used for Necromancy are the same - then yes, that's true and I believe it's still true. What do you meant by "they're trying to paint the Lich King as unique"? That's certainly not my take of what we've known from "Shadowlands" (the expansion). He is unique since there is only one Lich King and only Lich King wield the Helm of Domination filled with so much power gained by the Lich King's spirit over time - thus, he represents the force of death on Azeroth as the most powerful being using Death / Necromancy power (like the Wild Gods represent Nature and the Titans represent Arcane, although the Titan is on cosmic scale rather than just Azeroth).

Still, I don't think that's what you meant by "unique" since there is nothing particularly wrong about that, isn't there? If that's what you meant by "unique", then what's so bad about it?

[Tiwack]

There's nothing in that link that gives your title any credit, you're seeing what you want to see. If you read any of your own article you'd realize it just offers questions and speculation to try and hype the new feature in the next expansion: how KJ and the nathrezim crafted the lk blade and helmet. I suppose its safe to continue to leave you on ignore.

[Goldielocks]

He is unique. What Dreadlords has the power to command the entire scourage all over the world from where they sit.

Literally displayed front and center in WC3 but okay.

[TigTone]

Literally displayed front and center in WC3 but okay.

Amazing wasn’t aware Dreadlords commanded a force of undead as large as the Lich Kings.

Would love those screen shots and lore text

[Aucald]

Amazing wasn’t aware Dreadlords commanded a force of undead as large as the Lich Kings.

Would love those screen shots and lore text

I think they're referring to Tichondrius taking over the existing Scourge from the Lich King near the close of the Third War as the Legion turned its sights on Hyjal and the World Tree. It seems more likely that Tichondrius was basically taking command over the Lich King, and the Lich King (Ner'zhul at the time) was permitting this due to his fear of Archimonde and/or Kil'jaeden's wrath. Arthas' dialogue with Illidan in Felwood would seem to support this, as the Lich King was just biding his time under Legion control until the Legion was itself defeated (a result he seemed to believe was inevitable).

[TigTone]

I think they're referring to Tichondrius taking over the existing Scourge from the Lich King near the close of the Third War as the Legion turned its sights on Hyjal and the World Tree. It seems more likely that Tichondrius was basically taking command over the Lich King, and the Lich King (Ner'zhul at the time) was permitting this due to his fear of Archimonde and/or Kil'jaeden's wrath. Arthas' dialogue with Illidan in Felwood would seem to support this, as the Lich King was just biding his time under Legion control until the Legion was itself defeated (a result he seemed to believe was inevitable).

I see now, but he’s arguing from the point WC3 only. What made Lich king unique is everything he accomplished near the end of WC3 and after WC3.

Chronicles and WoW quest/lore also expand on the powers and abilities the Lich King developed and that one else had at least not on that scale.

[Akibaboy]

I love the original lore so much that it can never be expanded upon or even slightly tampered with. /s

My favorite part of the Kil'Jaeden / Lich King storyline is when the demons pulled the powers to create the Scourge out of their ass, have never by any recorded account used something like it in other worlds, and after WC3's storyline effectively gave up on using it again or addressing that undeath was a massive tool in their wheelhouse if they had the capability to do it. It's almost like the Kil'Jaeden connection in WC3 was an easy, hamfisted way to push through new characters and themes of other fantasy genres quickly without having to establish new origins or motivations - "Hey it's the demons making the undead, and ummm... Ner'Zhul, the shaman turned warlock turned lich... or something... you recognize all those names right?" You even had obtuse moments of there being 2 different types of Death Knights because it was just kinda shotgunned in.

Then in WotLK, with almost no remaining demon connections referenced in that expansion whatsoever other than the Scarlet Onslaught stuff, they transitioned the lore further to the nordic side of things with the Vrykul, Valkyr, and supposedly were working on expanding that death connection via Yogg Saron but failed to effectively do so. So there's generally been a sense for 10+ years that the team would've loved to expand out the lore of undeath, creating undead, creating the devices and tools to do so without needing to keep a demon / Nathrezim on hand or their one track motivations to justify any developments. This was seen as early as Cata when they said "Ok, Sylvanas can make some more with the Val'kyr".

So quick question - without any Shadowlands lore or connections, with full respect to the Lich King's creation and connection to Kil'Jaeden and the Nathrezim, what is the next interesting step for that character? One of the entities in his head takes control from Bolvar and he's a bad guy again and we get "Lich King Again featuring Undead"? I'd much rather receive expanded lore on the origins of undeath and the tools to achieve it that can sustain it being a major player in the game and story going forward beyond "Oh yeah some demons made it one day and it backfired and then they kinda forgot about it."

[Aresk]

Sargeras original origin story was that the Nathrezim corrupted him. The retconned version is that he saw into the Void Lords plans and went mad, vowing that destroying all of reality is better than letting them have it.

Don't forget that the eredar also helped with Sargeras' corruption. Kil'jaeden going from a corrupter of a titan to someone who got duped by a titan was the biggest hit to his character. Having made (or ordered made or stolen or what have you) the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne in the Shadowlands pales compared to the BC retcons.

[Soluna]

This thread is stupid as fuck. YOu keep complaining about Nathrezim and KJ creating the helm. Well who the fuck says they didn't create it with the help of the dezidens of the shadowlands? I swear you guys just complain to complain.