Ion:Calia won't join the Horde.

[Super Dickmann]

Lo and behold, one of the covenants is literally the origin of the scourge, composed of actual skeletons and portrayed as mostly evil, but not strictly. The theme and fantasy of "evil" rotting scourge is being presented in a more fundamental way than even the forsaken. Scourge laboratories, rotting abominations, etc.
To add credence to this theory, the Venthyr have also been created. The sanlayn archetypal vampire has been widely requested as a playable race for years. And now covenants come along with player animation rigs? I'm pretty convinced they'll be playable.

Which leads me to my final thought. So part of the Forsaken are still Sylvanas loyalists. And she may be in a covenant of the Maw, a dark, "black hole" kind of place. If all the other covenants become playable, who's to say a covenant from the Maw won't be? With Sylvanas usurping the Jailer's leadership, maybe the loyalist forsaken would willingly join her covenant and become playable, preserving not only their leadership, but also darker themes. Allowing the rest of the Forsaken who want Calia to lead them to remain separate, but also exist.

That's utter garbage and what's worse is that it's not even meant negatively, but just goes to show the vast disconnect between the Forsaken's new audience who never had prior investment in them and the actual players who play undead. Being given a new faction with one expansion's worth of lore that fulfills a portion of the Forsaken identity, that being the mad science + dark humor militant element does in no way make up for the complete demolition of all prior Forsaken story to service players who previously wouldn't touch the race with a ten foot pole and for whom the fantasy the nu-undead will provide can easily be met by their choice of humans or worgen, given the extent to which they've been rewritten. The Lordaeronian element of the Forsaken identity, the loss of free will, alienation from their former lives, both in the personal and cosmic sense, the mad science, dark humor, militancy and so forth are all part of the Forsaken, it's not one of these aspects or the other.

That's why Calia has already done irreparable damage because at her very best, she'd still set up a separate "You but better" branch of undead in Lordaeron that'll nullify several of their themes - namely rejection and alienation and co-opt the Lordaeronian part while having come into this position with a set of retcons that render the race more shallow. To have the nu-undead instead wholly replace the Forsaken and shunt a few choice parts of that old identity off to a side group that'll be relevant for one expansion is ludicrous. It'd be akin to the Night Elves being taken over by Azshara, because she's still their queen and unemployed, shift their focus to arcane magic and rebuilding their empire, with Tyrande and Malfurion punted off to neutrality and then say "don't worry, this is fine, the Ardenweald also has long-eared nature lovers who live in night time ".

[Reinhart11]

It is still better than Calia becoming the proper leader of the Forsaken or even their spiritual lead though. Nothing is really worse than that.

They should have kept Calia alive and put her at the head of the Brotherhood of the Light and the Silverhand, as well as the living Lordaeronians. Let them have had a war to reconquer their old kingdom with their bases in Stratholme and Tyrs Hand, cleansing the Eastern Plaguelands and such.

[Hugnomo]

That's utter garbage and what's worse is that it's not even meant negatively, but just goes to show the vast disconnect between the Forsaken's new audience who never had prior investment in them and the actual players who play undead. Being given a new faction with one expansion's worth of lore that fulfills a portion of the Forsaken identity, that being the mad science + dark humor militant element does in no way make up for the complete demolition of all prior Forsaken story to service players who previously wouldn't touch the race with a ten foot pole and for whom the fantasy the nu-undead will provide can easily be met by their choice of humans or worgen, given the extent to which they've been rewritten. The Lordaeronian element of the Forsaken identity, the loss of free will, alienation from their former lives, both in the personal and cosmic sense, the mad science, dark humor, militancy and so forth are all part of the Forsaken, it's not one of these aspects or the other.

That's why Calia has already done irreparable damage because at her very best, she'd still set up a separate "You but better" branch of undead in Lordaeron that'll nullify several of their themes - namely rejection and alienation and co-opt the Lordaeronian part while having come into this position with a set of retcons that render the race more shallow. To have the nu-undead instead wholly replace the Forsaken and shunt a few choice parts of that old identity off to a side group that'll be relevant for one expansion is ludicrous. It'd be akin to the Night Elves being taken over by Azshara, because she's still their queen and unemployed, shift their focus to arcane magic and rebuilding their empire, with Tyrande and Malfurion punted off to neutrality and then say "don't worry, this is fine, the Ardenweald also has long-eared nature lovers who live in night time ".

Well for one, when I was speaking of Forsaken who want Calia leadership, I wasn't speaking in the meta sense - the players - but the in-universe characters like the Desolate Council (before being killed) and apparently Voss, and how that sentiment may or may not be present in a part of the Forsaken society.
Second, I don't know if those assumptions on a "new audience" of the Forsaken who knows nothing about them is directed at me personally, but if it is, I'll just say that I think it's a terrible approach to a conversation. I play since Vanilla, and I play all races, including Forsaken, ever since. Sometimes people just have a different preference for where the story should go, you don't need to ad hominem opposing views as less invested or knowledgeable about the race.
Personally, I think Calia could be a good leader for part of the Forsaken who want her. I understand this is not your view, you are entitled to it. My view is that the forsaken story felt stagnant, and Calia introduces a fresh new direction or at least a palpable development in their ethos - some would like that, some wouldn't, that's fine, there's no need to disparage opposing opinions as not true forsaken fans or something of the sort.

On your analogy about the Night Elves and Azshara, I don't think it really fits at all. There is no significant loyalty (or at all) for Azshara by any night elves. She was ousted and no love was lost from current night elf society.
Sylvanas abandoned her people. It's been hinted and shown in game she still has loyalists. Clearly the forsaken people are divided, while the night elves are not.

I think a more apt analogy would be if a conflict arose between Tyrande and Shandris/Malfurion. If Tyrande's development continued on her thirst for vengeance, her distrust of the Alliance, and even her disillusionment with Elune, it would create a conflicting theme to the current Alliance-alligned, Elune devoted, peace seeking night elves, which were more or less represented in Shandris' dialog for 8.3.
Players who feel like their vengeance for Teldrassil wasn't sated, who want to follow Tyrande in a hypothetical new direction, would probably appreciate the option to do so, even if that meant separation from the other night elves who'd keep the other attributes I referred.
Now I don't think that's happening, but I think it's a more accurate comparison.


Currently, the forsaken have conflicting themes and ideas, and there's a demand of representation for both.
Are the forsaken humane, longing for connection and the love of their living relatives - like the Desolate Council? Or do they reject their previous lives, holding only resentment?
In my opinion, without the separation into 2 groups, the forsaken will erase either of the opposing themes, and part of the player base will be unhappy.
Now I understand that if it were up to you, there'd be no conflict, Calia would have never appeared in this capacity and brought this division. But I reckon that even before Calia, there was some representation of the themes associated with her.

And we don't know if the covenant races will be only relevant for one expansion or how they'll be treated in the future.

In conclusion, I get your frustration. You like how the forsaken have been portrayed until now. You like the identity and themes. And you don't want it to change.
I think they shouldn't. I think the forsaken with that characterization should get to keep it, their themes, their story, and what they like about the race. But I also think people who like the themes brought by Calia and the Desolate Council should also be able to be represented. I think that would be achieved by the ability to play 2 different groups with those distinct traits. How that would be achieved probably has a plethora of possibilities.

[Graden]

It is still better than Calia becoming the proper leader of the Forsaken or even their spiritual lead though. Nothing is really worse than that.

They should have kept Calia alive and put her at the head of the Brotherhood of the Light and the Silverhand, as well as the living Lordaeronians. Let them have had a war to reconquer their old kingdom with their bases in Stratholme and Tyrs Hand, cleansing the Eastern Plaguelands and such.

Yep, that could work. Million times better than what we got. As it stands, Calia is an utter abomination and unfortunately we probably won't get rid of her anytime soon.

[sam86]

I mean this was never a surprise another horde race taken under the Alliances loving embrace.

last 5 times alliance loving embrace tried (and failed) to genocide every single living member of horde race, so i hope forsaken don't get alliance 'love' again

- - - Updated - - -

It is still better than Calia becoming the proper leader of the Forsaken or even their spiritual lead though. Nothing is really worse than that.

They should have kept Calia alive and put her at the head of the Brotherhood of the Light and the Silverhand, as well as the living Lordaeronians. Let them have had a war to reconquer their old kingdom with their bases in Stratholme and Tyrs Hand, cleansing the Eastern Plaguelands and such.

lorewise or whatever it used to the living Lordaeronians are the extreme minority, at best 10% of total older population, the majority are undead, forsaken are the actual legitimate heirs to Lordearon, not the leftover living, they literally died defending it

[Colonel Sandor]

Hail Marry prediction:

Find Arthas in the Maw. He stops Sylvannas or plays a integral role. Redemption arc.
He comes back and leads the Forsaken, his fallen people of Lordaeron how he should have done it the first time.

Wont happen probably, but who the hell else will lead.

[Super Dickmann]

In my opinion, without the separation into 2 groups, the forsaken will erase either of the opposing themes, and part of the player base will be unhappy.
Now I understand that if it were up to you, there'd be no conflict, Calia would have never appeared in this capacity and brought this division. But I reckon that even before Calia, there was some representation of the themes associated with her.

And we don't know if the covenant races will be only relevant for one expansion or how they'll be treated in the future.

In conclusion, I get your frustration. You like how the forsaken have been portrayed until now. You like the identity and themes. And you don't want it to change.
I think they shouldn't. I think the forsaken with that characterization should get to keep it, their themes, their story, and what they like about the race. But I also think people who like the themes brought by Calia and the Desolate Council should also be able to be represented. I think that would be achieved by the ability to play 2 different groups with those distinct traits. How that would be achieved probably has a plethora of possibilities.

While I understand the point you're getting across, and do agree with you that I'm largely addressing this at a meta level, so we're talking past each other a bit, I do disagree on the end point. Mostly because what are now separate aspects of the Forsaken were previously a cohesive element, that just varied within their society. For instance, quests where people went to get you deeds for lands they owned in life but meant to use in death, tokens of their lost loved ones, etc. Specifically when it comes to them still being citizens of Lordaeron, everything Calia says is airlifted straight out of what Sylvanas already did in Cataclysm, but that is shuffled quietly under the rug in order to first take away depth from the Forsaken by making only Sylvanas responsible for their rejection, simplify them by making them her victims of her rather than having their relationship with Lordaeron be a complicated one, and then return some of it in the form of separate characters. Personally I find guys like the dude who stole the bloodstones in Vanilla and had to hang around humans because he couldn't stand to let Sylvanas use evil old god magic more compelling than the Desolate Council because his act of good is not forced upon him nor the result of victimization - he simply stands up for what he believes is right irrespective of that.

That said I will defend the comparison with Azshara, because the clean break with the past is about the same. The character opinions can be moulded heavily, down to doing the very opposite of what they did previously. Say, Sylvanas's relationship with Lordaeron as mentioned, or everything regarding her and the Val'kyr given Shadowlands. What's more relevant to what I'm getting at is the overhaul in theme-ing based around one aspect of who they are, in the Forsaken's case - that they were once living Lordaeronians and are sad, whereas with the night elf hypothetical that they were once a world-spanning arcane empire. These traits are part of what make them, but they're nowhere near all of it, and a race focused on these aspects would be drastically different. In the night elves case, they'd be nightborne or blood elves, in the Forsaken's case, they'd be humans or worgen. But one of these is a hypothetical, and the other is what actually happened, and it eliminates the fantasy related to the Forsaken of fifteen years to tailor to a separate audience.

Now, much as I'd like to toss all this in the bin, because it's universally made everyone involved worse and the separation of the Forsaken and Sylvanas by way of these hamhanded retcons has only made both more shallow and eliminated the original racial fantasy, that isn't going to happen. I still think the most likely part is just a wholesale takeover by Calia and the expulsion of all these elements. But if I were forced to keep the retcons in place and go from there, the path to least harm would not be in an expansion long feature, but by putting Calia Alliance-side or as a bridge character, leading a neutral faction of undead stemming from the current undead that emulate her and wish to reconnect with their Lordaeronian identity and the Light in the way it happens in BTS. It'd also serve as a platform to explore the Light and the implications of having what are essentially perfect beings (the LF undead) without needs running around, who are both programmed to be good, but also lack frames of reference with those they're helping, so might want to make them better irrespective of their wishes. And in turn, what trying to reach such a state might mean for someone who's nature forbids them and who still have all the regular undead limitations (Calia's regular undead followers). Horde-side should stick as close as possible to what's left of their current themes and aesthetic, but ditch the personality cult in favor of a new council of prior NPCs.

[Gungnir]

There's nothing I've wanted to be more wrong on than Calia being Forsaken leader. Please give me the link in non-communist. I want to be free.

No no, she'll be the Forsaken leader, Forsaken is just joining the Alliance.

[VladlTutushkin]

I'll believe that not every Forsaken will be a pathetic sadsack who wants Calia to save him from his prior lore when I see it.

But Forsaken ARE pathetic. They have two modes - emo/lolevul mallgoth or slave to Sylvanas who grovels and begs and all that. They arent cool, they just shadows of their OP leader.

[bloodmoth13]

It is still better than Calia becoming the proper leader of the Forsaken or even their spiritual lead though. Nothing is really worse than that.

They should have kept Calia alive and put her at the head of the Brotherhood of the Light and the Silverhand, as well as the living Lordaeronians. Let them have had a war to reconquer their old kingdom with their bases in Stratholme and Tyrs Hand, cleansing the Eastern Plaguelands and such.

Nah they need the naaru to mass rez their loyal followers who died protecting lordaeron from undead scum: the motherfuckin scarlet crusade! Mass rez em and hand them to the alliance. Gg now you have an irreconcilable split between forsaken and alliance undead, forsaken lore doesnt get shat on, there is still no cure for undeath etc.
To make the scarlet undead even better would be to make them opposite to forsaken, if they dont listen and obey the light they forfeit their reanimation. They feel no misery but have no free will, perfect foil to forsaken.

[Super Dickmann]

But Forsaken ARE pathetic. They have two modes - emo/lolevul mallgoth or slave to Sylvanas who grovels and begs and all that. They arent cool, they just shadows of their OP leader.

This is yet another reminder that no other race has tried to kill its leader more than the Forsaken have Sylvanas and almost always because she isn't radical enough for them, not the other way around. The difference between the Forsaken and most other races is that for the other races their total alignment with the leader is an out of story contrivance, but the Forsaken have the personality cult as an in-story element with dissent involved on both good and bad ends.

@Gungnir

Unironically support this if Calia takes over.

[Gungnir]

Unironically support this if Calia takes over.

I actually chuckled and then my heart sank.
I've been playing undead since EU launch and it's the one race/faction I really enjoy the lore of, or atleast did.

Let this pixelated smileyface be a tomb for my hopes and dreams.

[Reinhart11]

Nah they need the naaru to mass rez their loyal followers who died protecting lordaeron from undead scum: the motherfuckin scarlet crusade! Mass rez em and hand them to the alliance. Gg now you have an irreconcilable split between forsaken and alliance undead, forsaken lore doesnt get shat on, there is still no cure for undeath etc.
To make the scarlet undead even better would be to make them opposite to forsaken, if they dont listen and obey the light they forfeit their reanimation. They feel no misery but have no free will, perfect foil to forsaken.

That could be an option too, but i'm personally not really a fan of Undead in the Alliance, especially in the Eastern Alliance, with all the history these races have with the Scourge. But of course Undead don't fit the Night Elves either. They don't really fit the Horde as well except for a military alliance of convenience.

I liked the old Kingdom of Lordaeron and the Brotherhood of Light and the Silver Hand got enough attention to build a living Lordaeron faction/people around them, especially with a figure head like Calia or another influential, powerful noble of Lordaeron. And we also know that a large part of the population of Stormwind consists of refugees from Lordaeron. So there shouldn't be as little living Lordaeronians left as some people seem to believe. And i just would like to see a partial rework of the Eastern Plaguelands where such a faction is active, with Stratholme as their capital and Tyrs Hand as a major outpost. Of course it would be easier to do this if Blizzard would enlarge the world itself, so that region are way bigger than they are now, like in Classic Alpha, so the developers have more room to put stuff there. They already said that reworking existing content is very ressource and time consuming compared to creating new content from scratch. But of course the chances for all of this to happen are very low, even though such a Lordaeron faction could still come up in the future if Blizzard would start to build up new proper characters for a change, instead of reusing old ones again and again.

This whole Light Undead idea with Calia is in my mind so bad, that i don't even want to think about it much. Its mindboggling to me how they could come up with such crap. Even Void Elves look like a superb idea compared to Light Undead. But i guess the best chance the Forsaken have is if Calia goes to the Alliance, unless the current writers get kicked out, new ones come in and they find some way to change the character into someone decent and interesting.

[Fewane]

I actually chuckled and then my heart sank.
I've been playing undead since EU launch and it's the one race/faction I really enjoy the lore of, or atleast did.

Let this pixelated smileyface be a tomb for my hopes and dreams.

I'm on the same boat of having played practically only zombies from the day of EU launch, and I've thoroughly enjoyed the lore and themes as mentioned above. Even so, I think Calia might have worked as a kind of a Marie Antoinette type of a totally out-of-touch leader, a queen raised to the pedestal just because she had the correct blood in her shrunken veins, totally oblivious to the actual mood and thoughts of her subjects. I know going that direction would be too much to ask, but would have been fun to have her ruling over a court of scheming apothecaries, tragic undead former lords of Lordaeron, and happily mad generals while totally glossing over the problems she didn't see beneath her nose. :P

[Alanar]

Also no new death class because Death Knight exists. That should put an end to the Necromancer/Dark Ranger debates.

Nope, they already said that a new class can emerge out of shadowland.

Still possible.

[TigTone]

New class from shadow lands will
Be a mix of all the covenants

Which means it could be 4 specs

On topic it’s good that Calia won’t join horde.

This gives room for a true forsaken or a council of forsaken be born and give the race more culture other than “for the lady” .

[Ryonas]

No, horde will join calia

Exactly. 100% accurate. I'm just wondering what race the Horde will get to make up for losing the Forsaken?

[allawyn]

It would be nice to see Blizzard address the problem that so much of the Horde had been killed, or turned evil, by actually developing (and not kill) Horde characters out of Horde lore, rather than simply Alliance characters over to the Horde.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Hail Marry prediction:

Find Arthas in the Maw. He stops Sylvannas or plays a integral role. Redemption arc.
He comes back and leads the Forsaken, his fallen people of Lordaeron how he should have done it the first time.

Wont happen probably, but who the hell else will lead.

Sylvanas Windrunner and Nathanos Windrunner

[allawyn]

The Horde is almost out of characters, but to fix it with Alliance characters, instead of developing and not killing Horde characters, would be hardly be seen as a step forward.