Titanforging returning in shadowlands (possibly)

[Sezh]

That's fair. What I don't understand is how/why TF affects this negatively. No offence, but your explanation that follows doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with TF or how it affects your ability to achieve your goals and getting CE.

A lot of people need tangible goals in order to motivate themselves. I much rather run a specific dungeon 20 times to get a BiS item that has 5% drop rate than run a dungeon 20 times that drops the same item with a 100% drop chance but an unknown chance to Titanforge, if that makes sense to you.

[razorpax]

Because a difficult boss fight once per week doesn't compare to grinding infinite amounts of M+ if your looking for a high ilvl piece.

Outside of specific effects on items, raid bosses are not an efficient way to fish for TF procs.

and in shadowlands (if they dont bring TF back) the infinite grind will be gone

i think the new 8.3 m+ rewards are the new rewards


i think OP made a post suggesting that CM rewards in M+ would be a good idea and i kinda agree

- - - Updated - - -

That's fair. What I don't understand is how/why TF affects this negatively. No offence, but your explanation that follows doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with TF or how it affects your ability to achieve your goals and getting CE.

i just like the idea of being done with gearing my character sometimes
like knowing that my main is sitting with the best of the best gear and now can be top of my game
can compete for rank 1s
can run high m+
can focus on alts

plus it helps with the balancing in a very miniscule way

[MrLachyG]

A Dev states that it might return in the next expansion but they are currently watching the corruption system in 8.3 closely......wtf no

When the patch was announced Watcher said they want the strongest gear from the hardest content and now we see that they are possibly going to scrap this new system that is at least more exciting than TF because.....why??

They worked on this new system but might trash everything because TF is a lazy solution I guess.

I wish they could respond this quickly to actual feedback instead of years later.

Players say a system is flawed and it takes years for it to be fixed. Blizz says they listen but if they decide to make a shitty choice it goes in immediately and feedback be damned

they should go back to the MoP system. stuff could warforge or thunderforge to 6ilvl better than the gear ilvl of the content you were doing and then add 10ilvl of upgrades using currency that is capped every week but has lots of different sources

[Levogames]

And their solution doesn't work because it makes everyone far too powerful, which is why they need one shot mechanics. Otherwise no one would ever wipe outside mythic!

Only if they know what to choose, then unskilled players are fcked and that's fair to me.

[Pakheth]

I hope they never reimplement it.
Titanforging has destroyed my interest in gear. There is nothing unique or interesting with randomly assigned stats that may or may not forge. It just feels bland and completely out of your control. Which in my opinion is not very interesting and removes a lot of the choice you have as a player.

I'm also fond of alts and actually being finished gearing a character (not necessarily BIS mind you, I'm not that thorough) to work on the next was what kept me playing in previous expansions. Well helped by tier sets(both for looks and effects) but doesn't seem like we are getting those back.


I like targeting a specific boss for a cool item. Triple RNG does not allow that playstyle anymore and I loathe it.

[brt2pp]

A Dev states that it might return in the next expansion but they are currently watching the corruption system in 8.3 closely......wtf no

When the patch was announced Watcher said they want the strongest gear from the hardest content and now we see that they are possibly going to scrap this new system that is at least more exciting than TF because.....why??

They worked on this new system but might trash everything because TF is a lazy solution I guess.

I wish they could respond this quickly to actual feedback instead of years later.

Players say a system is flawed and it takes years for it to be fixed. Blizz says they listen but if they decide to make a shitty choice it goes in immediately and feedback be damned

link to that statement ? because from what i remembered they merely stated that their decision will be dictated by reception of corruption, but in the context of question asked it seemd like they meant wether or not we will ahve difrent system then corruption, not that titanforging will return

I hope they never reimplement it.
Titanforging has destroyed my interest in gear. There is nothing unique or interesting with randomly assigned stats that may or may not forge.

to be perfectly fair there is nothing intresting about flat piece of gear too, gear becomes intresting if it's extreamly rare, but then it's not realistically targetable, so i guess lose/lose ? idk, i feel people are just parroting after youtubers and not really feel so offended by notion of random (to a degree) ilvl of item, imo current state of classes are way bigger issue than wether or not you have list to go through or not (a talking point that gets repeated ad infinitum by youtubers, hence my previous opinion of people just parroting after them)

[huth]

And their solution doesn't work because it makes everyone far too powerful, which is why they need one shot mechanics. Otherwise no one would ever wipe outside mythic!

No, that's mostly because they want the gameplay to be that way. Otherwise, they could just adjust numbers to fit.

Titanforging is on average a fairly static iLvl increase. You're exceedingly unlikely to actually get vastly out of line with your peers due to it, contrary to popular claims.

[razorpax]

link to that statement ? because from what i remembered they merely stated that their decision will be dictated by reception of corruption, but in the context of question asked it seemd like they meant wether or not we will ahve difrent system then corruption, not that titanforging will return



to be perfectly fair there is nothing intresting about flat piece of gear too, gear becomes intresting if it's extreamly rare, but then it's not realistically targetable, so i guess lose/lose ? idk, i feel people are just parroting after youtubers and not really feel so offended by notion of random (to a degree) ilvl of item, imo current state of classes are way bigger issue than wether or not you have list to go through or not (a talking point that gets repeated ad infinitum by youtubers, hence my previous opinion of people just parroting after them)

front page off mmo champ in the interview round up
same section tier sets

[Raelbo]

The game should be made for the players, and provide what they want. Not have some silly AP and TF mechanics just to keep them infinitely online, grinding and feel underwhelmed when they get a non-TF BiS.

1) The game is made for players and tries to give us what we want. Players have historically complained about "nothing to do". AP and TF extend the replayability of the game, effectively giving players scope to play (and get rewarded) as much as they want. The key, of course, is that the player needs to know when to stop, because the game won't tell you.

2) The point on AP and TF isn't to keep us "infinitely online". It's to give us enough to keep us busy infinitely if we want to.

3) If a player feels underwhelmed from getting a non-TF BiS, sorry, but that's entirely on the player.

The simple facts are these: Gear is a means to an end - clearing content. Every gear upgrade you get moves you closer to achieving this. This desperate "need" to get BiS is utterly nonsensical. It's not necessary and it's actually pretty pointless in the long run because new content will immediately obsolesce what was BiS.

Yes, I get that the echo chamber on MMO-C has normalised the attitude of "getting non BiS feelsbadman", but as far as I am concerned it's nothing more than spoiled, senseless entitlement.

People invest time and efforts in their characters, for which they want to receive fulfillment.

And TF is a gearing mechanism that ensures that the more time and effort you put into your character, the more you're going to be rewarded in terms of power.

Not watch themselves being ourgeared by others who totally lucked out.

It's a complete myth that TF is any way responsible for this phenomenon. There has always been in WoW an element of luck in how well geared you are relative to other people who are doing comparable content. And that is fine tbh.

That being said, I suspect what you're alluding to is, for example, mythic raiders being outgeared by LFR heroes. Which is utter nonsense. That does not happen, and I would challenge anyone here to link evidence of the existence of such an LFR hero.

The simple fact of the matter, again, is that by virtue of statistics and the way they work, mythic raiders are not going to be outgeared by "lucky" heroic raiders because that kind of luck is statistically so improbable that to all intents and purposes it is impossible (shy of a GM tinkering with loot rolls). Ditto for heroic raiders vs normal raiders, and normal raiders vs LF raiders

This is an extremely toxic and insolent system which is bothering possibly more than 90% of the playerbase since it's designed to keep infinitely keep you online, grinding and grinding and grinding...

No it's not. Where do you pull that "more than 90%" number from?

Stop blaming the system for keeping you online indefinitely. It's dishonest. Nothing in the system forces or compels you to keep playing infinitely. This "problem" is easily solved by learning to exercise some self control.

I understand Blizzard wants to keep people subbed. But as I mentioned above, throwing an insane amount of RNG and grind at them is just NOT the proper way. Rather, encourage the making of alts once you've maxed out a char. Promote PvP once PvE players max out, and vice versa. There's at least 10 better ways I can think of just from the top of my mind, and I'm not even a freaking game designer...

Actually you can do all of the above. You do have a choice. That's the whole point.

[letssee]

wow is a flawed mmo system lol

[Pakheth]

to be perfectly fair there is nothing intresting about flat piece of gear too, gear becomes intresting if it's extreamly rare, but then it's not realistically targetable, so i guess lose/lose ? idk, i feel people are just parroting after youtubers and not really feel so offended by notion of random (to a degree) ilvl of item, imo current state of classes are way bigger issue than wether or not you have list to go through or not (a talking point that gets repeated ad infinitum by youtubers, hence my previous opinion of people just parroting after them)

That's your opinion. I however find flat stats much more interesting as it lets me plan ahead and pick out items that look interesting that I wish to pursue. It doesn't have to be rare, but some gear with good stats for my class and perhaps a socket will make me target it. I might not get it, but I is a goal and it feels so much better getting something you want than a random piece of gear that forged randomly.

It also doesn't help that it's really hard for me to figure out if an item is an upgrade for me now that in previous expansions which makes it even harder to like this triple RNG.

I've played since vanilla. I have seen the game change a lot over the years, stats added and removed and while I can't say MoP was perfect, reforging was not optimal, it was the last time I felt gear mattered.

I do however agree that classes are the biggest problem right now and the main reason I am not currently subbed.

[Raelbo]

A lot of people just want to complete a list of checkpoints, to reach their goal(s). To some that’s defeating all mythic raid bosses, to some it’s collecting all pets to lvl 25, to some it’s having all mounts, and for some there is having the best gear.

There are so many gearing goals that one can set. This idea that you should grind gear until there is nothing better out there is actually pretty senseless - it's just something people did when the gearing path was a lot more limited. The paradigm has changed. So adapt. And if you're going to insist on not adapting, and insist on doing things the way you did them before, well, of course you're going to not have a great time of it. But don't make everyone suffer because of your own stubbornness.

Imagine if there would never be a "finish line" for anyone. Pets would just regenerate into something else, raids would get harder every week instead of easier and so on.

WoW is a perpetual game. There can be no finish line. The finish line is when you decide to quit.

That being said, there are many goals one can have in this game. And when you reach them you set new goals.

This in particular is why people dislike AP grinds with a passion, because we want to be "complete" and done with it we do it until we’re burnt out and nolonger have any fun with ut.

The reason such players burn themselves out and stop having fun is because they flat out refuse to exercise self moderation. It's that simple.

I honestly suspect that the problem a lot of top players have is that they want to be the best/strongest/etc, but they simply don't understand what that actually entails when you're talking about a game played by millions. So instead of setting appropriate goals, they go flat out trying to compete with people that they can't realistically compete with, until they burn themselves out. And blame the game

[brt2pp]

That's your opinion.

not only mine, warforging/thunderforging was implemented in wod/mop as a response for outcry of people saying that gear was boring(and dungeons becoming irrelevant 2 weeks into expansion), that it wasn't fun (like in vanilla) to get bis, they were saying(ironically) that it felt just like another thing off the list ( i think that is quote of preach from mop but i might be wrong), and after removal we will just return back to pre-tot era. I jsut don't understand the issue, you still have bis-list that you try to get, now you just might get not-bis that titanforge/get socket, but how this situation is diffrent then getting not-bis item from mythic when you have bis from heroic ?

[Anastacy]

I got a 430 Lightning Capacitor from the anniversary raid, and I haven’t even stepped foot in EP (any mode).

Wonder if it’s any good?

[DrayygoSham]

Titanforge and socket procs are one of the biggest issues of this game, alongside the class homogenization, pruning and artifact power. I mean, you get your BiS, but it's not really the BiS, as it can proc 3 additional times, so the chance of getting an actual BiS is so retardedly low. It's just underwhelming, it doesn't feel like you get a BiS at all.



Simple as hell, adjust the item levels accordingly, not have people farm into infinity and still not get an actual BiS item.

Not getting a BiS Item is good. And TF is good. As someone else already stated, it regulates the difficulty so that even plebs can clear heroic.
Not getting a BiS item is good: I play elemental shaman and i play on a decent level (famed and so on). I killed azshara mythic without having my "bis" gear except azerite (and even there, only okay-ish pieces, not actual "bis" ones). In a world, where BiS exists and all other items are far behind like in Vanilla/TBC/WOTLK my throughput would have been severly crippled by the fact i didnt have the trinket from behemoth, the weapon from behemoth nor the trinket from sivarra. but thanks to m+ and TF i had other items, which may not be BiS at baseline itemlevel but were on par thanks to forging a socket and some itemlevels.

Think of it this way: If you have only 1 item for each slot which is best, and you dont have forging, you can have bad luck and be benched because you dont have your bis and your dps/hps is shit. but when a 450/455 (w/ socket) turns out to be better than baseline mythic trinkets, then you have at least a chance to get something that is an upgrade over your BiS items (baseline).

[Cosmic Janitor]

Well we will see how their horriforging will turn out, I hope they have some more tweaks in store, because I don't see the current version working out well. If they just launch it like that and then claim "yea, didn't work out" then I hope someone pimp slaps them 3 times around the blizzard campus.

I wouldn't lend too much credence to their statements as of now. The expansion is still about a year away, too much can change and Blizzard is being vague because they know that as well. They will avoid making absolute statements at all costs.

[Axerax]

I think the WoW team has had a good taste of seeing, calculating, and understanding why the Vanilla formula endured such great praise and love from the community.

You can slowly start to see that they've began hinting at applying features that made it fun, made people play, etc.

With Titanforge and Warforge gear, I understand it's ultimate design is to keep players playing, but it is a double edged sword. It can also burn people out causing subloss, probably more often than by not having it. I sit myself in the boat of enjoying content when there is a clear and cut end goal when it comes to raid gear. I am fine with there being LFR, Normal, Heroic, and Mythic level gear without WF/TF because it means the entry barred is reliant on player skill and being optimally equipped for the content you are stepping foot in. There is no honest reason to have the ability to get a randomly improved piece of gear, but what would make sense is if we collected materials to imbue our set in stone gear to a WF/TF level and choose a tertiary stat option, even if it is a socket. With that imbue system you could also select that specific pieces of gear cannot have a socket so it is't all about get it TF and socketted, it could be about optimally selecting tertiary stats that are important for your spec or class and choose the socket on gear that can gain them.

It has to be a logical and grindable system that keeps players engaged and always looking forward to knowing that the work they are doing in the game ultimately causes the means to justify the ends. If I complete a random normal and heroic dungeon I get rewarded for each even if I'm out geared. Running a raid, each boss drops the material. If I ran LFR I would get 40 pieces of the material to upgrade my gear, but if I ran normal I could get the difference of material that was not obtainable in LFR, if I run heroic I can get the difference of material not obtainable in normal, and if I run mythic I can get the highest quantity of materials out of the raid, but still only obtaining what was unobtainable in heroic. So the idea would be that you could ultimately earn 100 pieces if you full clear mythic, 80 for heroic, 60 for normal, and 40 for LFR; if you completed LFR first to get a quick 40 to upgrade an item, you could run Heroic skipping over normal for 40 more with the ability to run Mythic for an additional 20, letting the player be flexible with their acquisition of the material.

Ideally you should be able to earn high amounts in specific places and smaller, but farmable, amounts in other places like dailies, WQs, island expedition-esc content, literally doing anything in game.

At least at this point with this type of solution it's a win win or at the very least a neutral answer for pro and anti WF/TF players. It gives those who want tokens a half answer, it gives those who want RNG removed from gear an answer, and gives Blizzard player subscription longevity as long as the system rewards players fairly.

---Edit---

I also see a lot about people worrying about players getting too strong endlessly. This system would likely need a +15 ilvl cap.

As a personal opinion looking in as an outside at this system idea, I believe players will understand that the longer a player plays the better gear they should have. If I am a player who stopped playing at the end of the last patch and come back near the end of the current patch, players should be higher than me and have better gear than me without a doubt.

[Pakheth]

not only mine, warforging/thunderforging was implemented in wod/mop as a response for outcry of people saying that gear was boring(and dungeons becoming irrelevant 2 weeks into expansion), that it wasn't fun (like in vanilla) to get bis, they were saying(ironically) that it felt just like another thing off the list ( i think that is quote of preach from mop but i might be wrong), and after removal we will just return back to pre-tot era. I jsut don't understand the issue, you still have bis-list that you try to get, now you just might get not-bis that titanforge/get socket, but how this situation is diffrent then getting not-bis item from mythic when you have bis from heroic ?

Forging in MoP was like 5-6ilvls, item stats were also not random, that was introduced in WoD. It also felt more special since only a handful of it is could forge back then, not everything and their grandma's teapot. It felt like a pleasant bonus and not as much as a disappointment it does now. Didn't forge? Sucks to be you.

And why do you keep quoting YouTube people if you claim people shouldn't listen to them?
I don't care one bit what they say. This is my own opinion from playing the game for 15 years.

The gear I get from RNGforging is not the gear I was aiming for. It is random. I cannot aim for it. It will not feel finished, it will just move the goal posts and most importantly it does not feel rewarding. It only feels random and we already have enough of that in the game. I have never in my wow life ever DE'd/sold/scrapped as much useless loot as I do now. The color epic means nada anymore so why should I fucking care about it? I can't name a single fucking weapon/gear from WoD through BfA but I can mention tons from MoP down to Vanilla.
Because now it's ALL RANDOM! You can't create unique memorable items from RNG!

Rant over.

Tl;dr: Randomness is not fun.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Rotted]

I don't really get the point of titanforging when you can just wait till the next patch and get tons of catch-up gear that trivializes previous patch's raids anyways...

By that logic, why bother playing BFA now? You can wait for shadowlands and just out gear it all anyways

[Odintdk]

Legion had the best M+ rewards, because whether you got upgrades or didn't, you still progressed towards both legendaries and AP (which actually provided tangible upgrades to your character).

Some like to complain about AP and TF, but they're just one of two groups. The one with little time to play (grind), yet also want to "beat the game" by playing a few hours a week to achieve their BIS. The 2nd group that invest more time to grind M+, reclear the raids, who are more than okay with the current system, but WILL be loud once/if those systems are removed.

People need to stop acting as if everybody are voicing their opinions on the TF/AP system on the forums, because there are many others who are happy with if, yet wont post to tell you. Its simply how feedback often works. The negative one is usually the loudest and prominent.