How many of you would like to see pathfinder removed or changed?

[vsb]

I'd love for flight to either be completely removed or rewarded to very few players on the server like one person in last mythic raid boss or super gladiator.

[SirCowdog]

The game is actually far more simplistic WITH flying, as all you do is fly over every obstacle. One can't argue against that, successfully that is.

The reason you seem to think you're arguments are so good is because you're arguing against something I'm not advocating.

Show me where I've been in favor of "flying over every obstacle". The only time I've said anything to that effect has ALWAYS been in the context of flight being the better option ONLY because it lets you bypass shallow content that you've already done.

I've been very clear that my personal preference is to have flight included in the design from the beginning, with appropriate challenges, balance, and barriers!

Everything else is a derivative based on the context of what would be tolerable assuming we literally can not dispense with Pathfinder.

You are pointing out flaws with a weak design decision of just slapping flight into a world not designed for it. Something I am absolutely against!

[op3l]

I'm in favor of just removing it.

[Shakana]

PathFinder -- Generating the same exact 50+ page thread with the same exact arguments by the same exact posters since 2015.

It's almost like clockwork.

OT: It ain't broke so Blizzard isn't fixing it.

Well i don't know i have not been here for years. This came from my personal intention of asking what people would prefer. - This includes not thinking flying is good for the game too.
Saying it once is enough, i failed to pull out a poll and people can just post about their own preferences.
About fixing it, i'm not asking for a fix, but rather a change. Or if it would be just good removing pathfinder 2 that is what is the most annoying since timegating is always bad for me, i don't like timegating stuff even less on flying. I would prefer something straight to the point even if it means just grinding like crazy.
I just don't get why can't everyone have their own opinions without dismissing other's? I accept you don't like flying, but why can't you accept i do?
This is the sort of thing that explodes into arguments against one another, just accept others and if you want show why it's better without, but don't need to bash others preferences in the process.

[Dhrizzle]

cata was fun. cata is only remembered as a not so good expansion cuz of Dragon Soul

Cata also had notably less work done in the 80-85 content (due to the 1-60 revamp,) a disjointed leveling experience with zones scattered across the old world, the most linear "guided tour" questing the game has seen and in some zones it was pretty obvious where they decided we would fly from 80 and it could be a crutch to cover rushed zone design.

Then at the level cap the dailies were pretty much a copy+paste of WotLK's systems and the heroic dungeons (which I enjoyed) were offputting to quite a few people due to the jump in difficulty compared to WotLK.

[Relapses]

Well i don't know i have not been here for years. This came from my personal intention of asking what people would prefer. - This includes not thinking flying is good for the game too.
Saying it once is enough, i failed to pull out a poll and people can just post about their own preferences.
About fixing it, i'm not asking for a fix, but rather a change. Or if it would be just good removing pathfinder 2 that is what is the most annoying since timegating is always bad for me, i don't like timegating stuff even less on flying. I would prefer something straight to the point even if it means just grinding like crazy.
I just don't get why can't everyone have their own opinions without dismissing other's? I accept you don't like flying, but why can't you accept i do?
This is the sort of thing that explodes into arguments against one another, just accept others and if you want show why it's better without, but don't need to bash others preferences in the process.

It's a touchy subject. The debates aren't really unsurprising, though they can get heated. (I've been blocked a few times for trying to have a slightly-neutral-yet-supportive-of-Blizzard's-decision-to-tell-us-to-fuck-off opinion.)

I think most points have been driven into the ground by now. People aren't really arguing to try to change anybody's opinion, they're arguing for the sake arguing. (And don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching panties get bunched up on the internet just as much as the next guy.) The sticking point, for me, has always been that PathFinder is itself a compromise that Blizzard never needed to make. Ion could've kept twisting his nipples and twirling his cartoonishly evil mustache while explaining ad infinitum Blizzard feels sans-flying is better for the game "because reasons." Really -- what it represents one of the few times Blizzard "listened" to player feedback and rolled back a divisive design direction. Yet, instead of embracing the developers for reaching a mutually agreeable middle ground, we get 20 pages of people reasoning that it shouldn't have ever been removed in the first place. It just seems... backwards. The conversation never really evolves from there.

[Shakana]

It's a touchy subject. The debates aren't really unsurprising, though they can get heated. (I've been blocked a few times for trying to have a slightly-neutral-yet-supportive-of-Blizzard's-decision-to-tell-us-to-fuck-off opinion.)

I think most points have been driven into the ground by now. People aren't really arguing to try to change anybody's opinion, they're arguing for the sake arguing. (And don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching panties get bunched up on the internet just as much as the next guy.) The sticking point, for me, has always been that PathFinder is itself a compromise that Blizzard never needed to make. Ion could've kept twisting his nipples and twirling his cartoonishly evil mustache while explaining ad infinitum Blizzard feels sans-flying is better for the game "because reasons." Really -- what it represents one of the few times Blizzard "listened" to player feedback and rolled back a divisive design direction. Yet, instead of embracing the developers for reaching a mutually agreeable middle ground, we get 20 pages of people reasoning that it shouldn't have ever been removed in the first place. It just seems... backwards. The conversation never really evolves from there.

I for one accept all kinds of critics but when it's too much my personality just can't stand dealing with it. I have my anxiety problems as everything in life I like to take it easy to not agravatte my situation. Being inside those forums and always existing this people that could simply not agree but starts attacking everyone instead is something I will never deal lightly. I'm at work I barely can read all you said but I will talk and read all detailed later.

[Elias01]

I have better things to do than arbitrarily grind reputation doing world content that has absolutely no benefit to my character's growth. Level cap should = Flying. No ifs ands or buts. Do not disrespect me or other players' time.

If world content have no benefit for you just dont do it? And if you dont do it you dont need flying. And if you dont like grinds maybe mmorpgs are not for you?

[SirCowdog]

IPathFinder is itself a compromise that Blizzard never needed to make. Ion could've kept twisting his nipples and twirling his cartoonishly evil mustache while explaining ad infinitum Blizzard feels sans-flying is better for the game "because reasons."

Sure, they could have done that. But then they would have had to suffer the financial consequences of that decision.

Honestly, I appreciate the genius move of convincing so many players that pathfinder is a "reward" while effectively still removing flight from the game. Oh...it's still technically in the game, but not actually part of the game.

If I was Ion I'd have broken my arm patting myself on the back for that one.

But that doesn't stop it from being a dick move, And from what I've seen lately, people are finally catching on.

Really -- what it represents one of the few times Blizzard "listened" to player feedback and rolled back a divisive design direction. Yet, instead of embracing the developers for reaching a mutually agreeable middle ground, we get 20 pages of people reasoning that it shouldn't have ever been removed in the first place. It just seems... backwards. The conversation never really evolves from there.

The conversation doesn't evolve because Blizzard didn't actually change their stance. You had it right when you put "listened" in parentheses.

Blizzard wanted to design the open world without flying. That's what they're doing. You'll note that flying is never available until after every piece of content has been consumed.

This is what I've been trying to get people to understand.

[Destronoma]

yes it is more exciting than flying over dozen mobs being safe all the way.

You enjoy being slowed to a crawl and having to stop whatever it is you're doing to one-shot whatever dazed you?

Yikes.

[Shakana]

It's a touchy subject. The debates aren't really unsurprising, though they can get heated. (I've been blocked a few times for trying to have a slightly-neutral-yet-supportive-of-Blizzard's-decision-to-tell-us-to-fuck-off opinion.)

I think most points have been driven into the ground by now. People aren't really arguing to try to change anybody's opinion, they're arguing for the sake arguing. (And don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching panties get bunched up on the internet just as much as the next guy.) The sticking point, for me, has always been that PathFinder is itself a compromise that Blizzard never needed to make. Ion could've kept twisting his nipples and twirling his cartoonishly evil mustache while explaining ad infinitum Blizzard feels sans-flying is better for the game "because reasons." Really -- what it represents one of the few times Blizzard "listened" to player feedback and rolled back a divisive design direction. Yet, instead of embracing the developers for reaching a mutually agreeable middle ground, we get 20 pages of people reasoning that it shouldn't have ever been removed in the first place. It just seems... backwards. The conversation never really evolves from there.

I have read it all now. Well ye I would want pathfinder changed on time gating stuff and providing some solutions for it. Understanding why the hate of flying by some and why can't we have a balanced game with it without going to the extremes and saying flying is the cause for everything bad that happens is easier to put the blame on flying for even systems and other stuff that is not even related to it . Blamed: Cause content can be rushed, that PvP sucks (even tho world PvP for me since bgs exist it's nothing) and so many reasons they give me ain't enough for me to say that flying is bad. Personally you can enjoy the game more without it, but knowing what is best for others that don't agree with that feels like someone is trying to force you into that idea when your original one ain't the same. Just feels too much effort to change your mind and basically force you to be part of the "remove flying". And what I'm doing here is not convincing anyone or forcing anyone into that and I would like for others to do the same. I think wow is a minor thing for me to get stressed over that much. Need to go work again. Hope you have a good day!

[Trumpcat]

I think Pathfinder is a great solution to flying invalidating terrain.

[Pakheth]

Go back to making it a gold purchase, no level requirements. That way, anyone who saves up the gold in the expansion before can buy it right as pre-patch goes live. Make the areas bigger to compensate. More space, more landscape to explore, less tightly-packed linear setpieces. Just please, Blizzard. Stop making every expansion so much of a traditional narrative. Give us a new zone, let us explore it and uncover the main plots as we explore instead of being railroaded along it. LET US FLY AGAIN!

This. I miss the days when exploring was exactly that. Zones were big and quests were hidden. And there was stuff and places made with flying in mind.

[JoeGood]

I would rather see a hugeass questline that takes you all arround the new world while you explore, with maybe som cool rewards on the way aswell..

[Sunderella]

just complete the main story lines of each zone and get your flying. thats how it should be.

[Aoyi]

I liked the idea behind pathfinder originally, but not its implementation. It made sense for you to experience the game's story as intended, then earn flying after. The after became tied behind more and more stuff just to force you to play longer to earn it.

I know it's almost taboo to mention other MMOs, but I think FFXIV got this right. In FF, you earn flight by doing the main story for a zone and clicking on "aether points" along the way. In most cases, those little points are right next to the main story destinations, though they did hide a couple in Stormblood. Either way, you got flying usually right when you finished a zone's main story and then moved on. No rep grind. No time-gating. You could earn it right away. I'd really like it if WoW would rethink that too.

I know it's probably not in WoWs future to be more reasonable with flying. It was just another one of those things that I started to get annoyed with in the game. Flying was fine before pathfinder. You earned it at max level with the exception of Cataclysm. I don't think we'll see it revert that far, but I would love it if they at least got closer to it's original rollout or FF's.

[Vanhyali]

I am completly fine with pathfinder. If they should make any change however, it would be to remove flying completly in my opinion.

[Eosia]

The people who argue against Pathfinder simply want flight removed. Period. It will NOT return to a simple per character purchase like it was in BC through MoP. It is time to face that fact. They wanted to remove flight because of what they saw us do in Cataclysm. They watched us fliy everywhere and blitz leveling. Nothing was a challenge because we simply flew over anything in the way, landed at the mob/item we need and then flew back to the quest giver. They actually had to give us quests to actually make us be on the ground for some stretches of land like the Fire Naga in Hyjal. The devs realized that they had created a monster and tried to kill it.

Problem was the genie was already out of the bottle and will not go back in as was evidenced by #NoFlyNoSub. So Pathfinder was the compromise. Flying would be put behind various content gates. Once we passed through those gates by completing said content, we would be able to fly. Blizzard even added rewards to it like fast ground speed for Part I and rewards like mounts for Part II.

Could they improve the speed at which it becomes available? Sure. But that is also dependent on how fast we consume content and development timetables.

If they changed pathfinder to were all you had to do was unlock loremaster in that zone to fly there i bet 90% of people would be happy with it.

Except they won't do that. They have already stated why in the past, which was the same answer to why they were forced to give us flying from the get-go in Cataclysm as well as why they had to enable flight in Wintergrasp when the zone was not running the battle. It makes it awkward to be flying in one zone, stray into another, contiguous zone and suddenly not be able to fly and be dismounted. That is also why Tol Barad, Cataclysm's version of Wintergrasp, was on an island without flight period.

Cata also had notably less work done in the 80-85 content (due to the 1-60 revamp,) a disjointed leveling experience with zones scattered across the old world, the most linear "guided tour" questing the game has seen and in some zones it was pretty obvious where they decided we would fly from 80 and it could be a crutch to cover rushed zone design.

Then at the level cap the dailies were pretty much a copy+paste of WotLK's systems and the heroic dungeons (which I enjoyed) were offputting to quite a few people due to the jump in difficulty compared to WotLK.

No, they gave us flight at the beginning of Cata because they had to. Because the zones were integrated into Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, it would have been a poor design choice to have you flying in Witnerspring but stray too far into Hyjal and you get dismounted suddenly and such. We complained about it in Wrath because of Wintergrasp and the devs listened and enabled flight in that zone except for when the battle was happening.

And the daily system in Cata was the same system that was used in all expansions except for Legion and BfA which use the World Quest system which is far superior.

[Dhrizzle]

No, they gave us flight at the beginning of Cata because they had to. Because the zones were integrated into Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, it would have been a poor design choice to have you flying in Witnerspring but stray too far into Hyjal and you get dismounted suddenly and such. We complained about it in Wrath because of Wintergrasp and the devs listened and enabled flight in that zone except for when the battle was happening.

There was discussions ongoing through development as to when players should be allowed to fly - it was a possibility that Azeroth flight would not have been unlocked until a player hit lvl 85 and you can see it in zones like Hyjal where areas were clearly designed to be experienced from the ground, then they seem to give up making sensible paths 'cos they know you can just hop over the cliffs and hills.

And the daily system in Cata was the same system that was used in all expansions except for Legion and BfA which use the World Quest system which is far superior.

TBC's world quests were more basic and experimental, MoP went all-in with the rep being needed to get badge gear from dungeons and raids. WotLK and Cata had almost identical reward structures where one faction gave out all the shoulder enchants then you would work on a particular faction for the best head enchant for your role. I do agree with you about the Legion+BfA world quest system being much better than the old dailies, though personally I was a bigger fan of the Apexis-zone style content, especially when it was expanded out and given a decent reward structure in Tanaan.

[Kaver]

As title suggests. Personally: I have a certain love-hate for pathfinder. I love having some challenge to fly, but i hate having too much time to wait until i have it. Would you like for blizzard for example, change pathfinder in a way that wouldn't take a whole grind rep but instead, just quest chains, that you can complete anytime you want and once that pathfinder part 1 is done, pathfinder 2 would then give you a rep to grind? Or the opposite, or just remove PART 2? What are your thoughts?

Edit 05/11: The hate part for it, it's about how long Pathfinder PART II takes to come out. Just want to clarify this for someone that reads this the first time.
The love part is that i actually like having challenge to unlock flying. It's a satisfaction sensation that you get.

Also, forgot to add a poll. but still type about it. thanks.

Edit 06/11: After some hours of answers and discussions, the majority of people on this forum and this thread, would like for pathfinder part 2 to come sooner and for pathfinder to be required while you're leveling and doing quests and explore the whole zones/Loremaster linked to it exclusively without a timegated part 2.
-As for pvp related systems, i think and one just more person that there could be some area restrictions on flying, if it's considered a battlefield. Where you get instantly dismounted. It can either be a full zone, or just a place. I gave the example of Wintergrasp,
-Northrend is a flying continent yet, once you fly over wintergrasp, you get dismounted. More like this could be added to the game and new expansions.

Edit 12/11: I'm starting to think that enabling flying by zones is better than pathfinder.
-Every zone could have quest-chains and rep to enable flying when hit exalted and done those storylines, then you would unlock an achievement for doing the story + flying in the zone.

Requirements:
- Achievement required for flying: Quests achievement/Loremaster; Reputation Achievement; Story achievement. Exploration Achievement.
Reward: Flying in the zone X.

-This would also give you the possibility of choosing/select where you want to pass more time and where you would want to have flying and choose what reps you would prefer to grind first than others, and also at the same time, some zones, can just be no flying allowed. More like, timeless isle, for example. Or Isle of Thunder.
- With this, it would make you work for it for god knows how long and entertain you at the same time, without time-gating. Instead you have the option to want or not flying in the zone. For shadowlands this would be good too since you're going to have covenants and 4 major zones (Bastion, Ardenweald, Revendreth, Maldraxxus). Let's say you will choose Maldraxxus and want flying there the most, then you unlock everything there is in there, and are free to even fly there.)

In Shadowlands as it's a new completely world, you could have a certain "Shadowlands explorer" Title.

Something like "Explorer/Seeker of the beyond", or "Loremaster: Realm of Shadows/Between Worlds".

Dude... make a poll for f sake