How many of you would like to see pathfinder removed or changed?

[lappee]

Snip

The only "unhealthy" part of the conversation was when you started the whole "I can't take you seriously because you have different opinion than me on X expansion" debacle.

I like flying as well, it makes things fast and easy specially as a druid. I also like greasy fastfood but I also know that its not good for me, just like flying (the current iteration of it, aka what we call flying) is not good for the game.
WotLK required flying in two specific zones because of elevation differences. However at the same other zones just became a "skip everything by flying over it" and like the only obstacle to flying was Wintergrasp where you'd get dismounted and people hated it.

That's NOT what said though.

Holy crap...take off your hate goggles and actually read what's being posted instead of jumping to conclusions. Let me break it down into simple terms for you.

First: My preferred version of flying would be to have it included in the fundamental design of the open world. That means a balanced, fair version of flying that is NOT just flying over or past every single obstacle without challenge. It means that the nature of flying would need to change, or blizzard would have to include things which pose barriers or challenges for a flying players.

Barring that: IF we are stuck with pathfinder, then Pathfinder can at least be more reasonable. Keeping in mind that the very nature of pathfinder is "Master the ground before flying". Which means that by the time you get flight, you've already cleared every challenge or barrier on the ground several times over. In which case the fact that you can fly over it doesn't matter. A challenge that is already defeated multiple times is no longer a challenge.

But that is what you said, and keep saying. You'd rather have flying over every obstacle than not having it at all.

The nature of pathfinder is to keep you on ground until patch X (and pathfinder is there only because of the amount of whine no-flying created in the first place - its not what Blizzard would've wanted to do) and thats how it works. The requirements for it, all the rep and storylines, are just to make sure you've played through the content. If you decided to do WQ's and such every day until patch X then thats your call, you very well knew that pathfinder won't be there any sooner and it really shouldn't be either.

The made up situations are the ones you created about my arguments in order to make your own points seem better to yourself. PLEASE pay attention to the context of the post.

But I didn't make up any situations, I just followed your example about flying being harder. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.

Citation needed! Yes, a handful of people are literally going to QQ about anything. That doesn't mean everyone hated it. Even now, where we see a general consensus that Pathfinder is acceptable, but the 8 month delay is not, there are still people asking for flight at level cap with no extra effort or price. That doesn't mean everyone wants flight at cap with no extra effort. You need to look at the overall response and feeling from many posts, not just the ones that reinforce your argument.

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=11008/...ments:id=87824
Ofcourse not everyone is going to agree with one thing, which is why I'm not saying "everyone" but rather using "people" as a collection of persons that is greater than "some".

Citation needed.

Legion Druid and Hunter class halls etc.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...se_the_length/ just a quick google search on it

I absolutely can argue against it, mostly because just making up a point without any evidence or supporting data is an easy one to debunk.

Sure, go ahead and try. Make a poll asking how many people would like flying that is the same speed as ground mounts and skies were filled with mobs that could dismount you. Please do try.

Maybe that's because people like you keep spouting the exact same unmitigated, unfounded, empty BULLSHIT. Someone has to provide a counter-argument based on reason and logic. Basic psychology: If someone repeats something often enough unchallenged, people start to believe it. That's why we have this stupid crap of "Flying hurts PVP".

Except that I'm literally countering your every point, that your only reply to is "lol bot" or "lol Blizzard fanboy".

Also, flying does hurt WPvP - a point that is a fact no matter your efforts to disprove it. Don't worry, I'm sure "lol bot" comment is about to surface again.

[smityx]

Doesn't really matter what I think/want or even you. Bliz isn't changing it. It's a tactic to keep people subscribed longer to keep those MUA's up. All that matters is what the shareholders think/want.

[Stabbyfists]

Personally this is how I would go about it.

Pathfinder part 1 unlocks flying immediately but with a catch - You only fly at base speed (150%)

After the next patch they introduce pathfinder part 2 and the new zones that you quest in.

Pathfinder part 2 would unlock flying in those new zones and boost the speed to Epic (280%)

Then at the end of the expansion when they introduce the final zone or raids. They give us Pathfinder part 3 which finally lets us fly at max speed. (310% for those who purchased it)

I mean, this would be decent imo. I mean, World PVP only happens nowadays during world quest spots and people are already grounded when they're in combat anyway so it would not affect world PVP if flying was available at the get go but at reduced speeds.

- - - Updated - - -

Doesn't really matter what I think/want or even you. Bliz isn't changing it. It's a tactic to keep people subscribed longer to keep those MUA's up. All that matters is what the shareholders think/want.

Except it doesn't. It only keeps you INSIDE the game longer but it does not affect end game goals like reputation which is dictated by quests and world quests and there are only a finite amount of those per day. Nodes and such are shared now and last a bit. In the end it only keeps you INSIDE the game longer, not subscribed cause at the end of the day, the amount of farming and grinding you do is the exact same as with flying.

Look at a game like Final Fantasy 14 - IT has flying from the get go, infact, its a questing and exploration reward and the final quests of each zone require you to be able to fly. Blizzard should embrace this philosophy like they did in Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King. Shadowmoon Valley, Icecrown? These are some of my favorite zones and the end game quests REQUIRED you to fly. Infact you couldnt get half the quests in Icecrown unless you flew to the gunship!.

[[Apok]]

Actually nevermind i misread the post i quoted.

[Witchblade77]

Doesn't really matter what I think/want or even you. Bliz isn't changing it. It's a tactic to keep people subscribed longer to keep those MUA's up. All that matters is what the shareholders think/want.

I don't know about you, but it basically keeps me subscribed LESS, as I simply stop playing until second part of pathfinder is released. there are plenty of other games on the market that don't patronize me the way waiting for over a year to unlock one of the main features that got me into WoW in a first place - does. (yeah, i'm a BC baby and literally, those trailers where they promote flying is what pushed me from watching WoW from the sidelines, to actualy buying and playing it). maybe... if travel in WoW wasn't such a deliberate pain designed to slow us down arbitrarily by making terrain as convoluted as possible, and each expansion just makes it progressively worse.

[MiseryIndex]

Pathfinder is a trash system. If they insist on making it gated, just make it loremaster and explorer. The rep grind is tedium for it's own sake

[Raelbo]

I'm saying the game is better without flying as we know it, that is based on facts that you can find in this and other topics of the same matter.

No it is not. That is your opinion based on your (IMO critically flawed) analysis of facts (which may or may not even be particularly accurate). Other, better analyses can be found in this and other topics of the same matter.

I'm also saying that personally (you know this means it is my OPINION?) I didn't like Legion and BfA and I also said a very specific reason for it: AP grind. I've been top end raider for quite a while so I dislike forced grinds, like AP. I've no problem with other optional grinds like some achievements (that I've also done).

While you're entitled to not personally like the AP grind, it is, in fact, not a "forced" grind. Yes, I get that as a top end raider, which means you're competing against other top end raiders to finish content first, that it is essentially becomes mandatory. But do try to realise that is a consequence of your specific choice, not a flaw in the game.

Honestly, it annoys me when top raiders (yes I know and respect your achievements as a top raider) arrogantly believe that their skill at raiding somehow makes them into an authority on all things in the game. To be honest, I think that the opposite is often true because as a top raider you have a very myopic view of the game as a whole.

Just because you did content for a year doesn't mean you should bypass it after.

Firstly, flying isn't bypassing content. You're strawmanning.

Flying is an alternative means of travel in the game. Just because it gives you the option to bypass certain elements in the game, doesn't mean that you're bypassing meaningful content. And after a year, the "content" we're talking about - annoying terrain and pointless trash mobs - has indeed become utterly meaningless and banal.

And you know what. If you really think that overland travel adds to your game experience, you're more than welcome to stick to your ground mount. Hell, why even ruin your game with a ground mount? Stay on foot! And while we're at it, turn off running, because, you know, that enables you to bypass content

After all if you have no problem doing the content without flying then why do you even want flying? Oh yes that's right you want everything to be as fast as possible with as little detriment as possible - at the cost of engagement and content.

I suggest that stop being so patronising and telling people what their motives are because clearly you have no clue.

WoW is a video game. The point of a video game is to have fun. Travelling without flying when you're exploring/discovering new content is fun. Travelling without flying in content that you've already explored is less fun. The more time you spend travelling in familiar content, the less fun it becomes, to the extent that travelling without flying in content that you've been travelling without flying in for months becomes tedious.

Lamenting the "cost of engagement and content" when that "engagement and content" you're talking about adds nothing of value to the game experience is pointless. And if you stop to think about it for a few seconds, what exactly do we all do with that time saved from tedious travel? That's right. We engage with actual meaningful content.

[vitor210]

Now that I finally unlocked flying in BfA, I don't want it removed xD

[ophion1990]

I'd make it available immediatly, rather than waiting another 6 months to get it unlocked. By getting it immediatly, I mean getting flying, not just the movement speed bonus. That way they can still introduce their new zone and do a similar system there but people don't have to keep walking around that same GD mountain for months on end, just to do that 1 worldquest that gives relevant rewards. Other than that, I think the system is fine. Play through the content for a set period to unlock flying, that way the content is now easier to do, since it will also be somewhat less relevant.

[Raelbo]

Also, flying does hurt WPvP - a point that is a fact no matter your efforts to disprove it.

Flying does not hurt WPvP. It's not a point of "fact". It's your (poorly formed) opinion.

What hurts WPvP is the fact that most players don't actually like WPvP. This fact is proven by the fact that so many players would choose to use flying to avoid it.

Sure, I get that some people like to claim that they like WPvP, but the facts are borne out by what actually happens in reality.

You see, what people do like is to defeat other players in PvP combat. What people don't like is getting defeated, especially in a conflict in which they have little or no chance of prevailing. So what tends to happen in WPvP is that players will try to do everything in their power to stack the odds in their favour, and then only when they reckon that they have a good chance of winning, do they commit to engaging in WPvP. Apply a little bit of logic, and what becomes immediately evident is that WPvP tends to almost always become a one-sided affair, with the party who initiates it being keen to engage, and the "victim" not enjoying it at all.

So then why do people bother to play with WM on? I would have thought it was obvious: The extra rewards, the mounts, the achievements, the titles, the toys, the xmogs. I honestly do not believe that WM is filled with players who love PvP, who are there for the fight, even if it means getting their ass kicked repeatedly. They are there for the rewards, plain and simple.

It's zero surprise to me the surge in how many people switched to WM after Pathfinder II. Because finally players have a way to have their cake and eat it. They can get their WM rewards while (mostly) avoiding any actual PvP (because now they can fly away).

Flying is not the problem. The problem is that people don't like WPvP and Blizzard, because of their fixation on the idea that this game needs to have inter-faction conflict, have tried to bribe players into WPvP. As far as I am concerned, Blizzard should remove the extra rewards from WM. They should also make any exclusive rewards available without WM. And if flying really was reducing WPvP, then they should remove flying from WM. Then we'd get a true idea of just much people actually like WPvP. But of course Blizzard won't do that because they want us engaging in WPvP.

[Dejiko]

There are some parts of pathfinder which make sense but for the most part
it just feels like arbitrary tasks to prolong game time.

It makes sense that i would need a better standing with the Zandalari trolls, considering
they have an open throne room with room for anyone on a flying mount to land on it`s
probably in their and your best interest that you get along with them.

But i also need to be revered with the turtles, why?
Are they going to throw turtles up in the air at me if they don`t like me zooming around all the time.
Do they do that when the trolls fly around on their mounts as well?

Why do i need to be revered with Talanji`s expedition and the Vulpera?
The swamp is enemy territory and even after the story there has been told the area is infested with enemies, so it`s
still a dangerous place to go romping around in, even if you are friendly to the right kind of trolls.

The desert is a lawless zone where looting and plundering happen frequently, it`s filled with ghosts and undeads and snake people
who poison you if you go to places you aren`t welcome.
What possible benefit would there be to being friendly with the Vulpera help when i want to fly around?
Noone tags along to ensure my safety, there`s no protection offered to me from them.

Ultimately doing the story and exploring the zones as well as increasing your reputation with at least one faction
i can understand, at least where it makes sense.
If they just decide to copy and paste the requirements needed like they have done thus far,
it`s a fairly unimpressive and laborious grind.

I`d just like it to be more fun and make sense.

[lappee]

No it is not. That is your opinion based on your (IMO critically flawed) analysis of facts (which may or may not even be particularly accurate). Other, better analyses can be found in this and other topics of the same matter.

Yes, it is. It is a statement made out of facts while the other analysis (whichever they may be) are "better" in your opinion because they share your view while being based purely on opinions. There is a reason why you don't bring those "analyses" up nor argue about anything that was said in here.

While you're entitled to not personally like the AP grind, it is, in fact, not a "forced" grind. Yes, I get that as a top end raider, which means you're competing against other top end raiders to finish content first, that it is essentially becomes mandatory. But do try to realise that is a consequence of your specific choice, not a flaw in the game.

Honestly, it annoys me when top raiders (yes I know and respect your achievements as a top raider) arrogantly believe that their skill at raiding somehow makes them into an authority on all things in the game. To be honest, I think that the opposite is often true because as a top raider you have a very myopic view of the game as a whole.

Oh I do understand that my hatred for it comes from my choices, but it also becomes a flaw in the game for me because the game didn't have it previously. Then again the same can be said about any grind - even "pathfinder grind" as flying is in no way necessary or needed.

How narrow view a top raider has depends completely on what other stuff they do within the game. Sure top raider liekly won't have a casual few of playing only few hours here and there (atleast in current WoW, this actually used to be quite common back when raid logging was more of a thing). Top raiders are not an auhtority but they usually have wider view on the topics they talk about, and personally I used to be a completionist so I'd say I have quite a wide and farsighted view - still not an authority.

Firstly, flying isn't bypassing content. You're strawmanning.

Flying is an alternative means of travel in the game. Just because it gives you the option to bypass certain elements in the game, doesn't mean that you're bypassing meaningful content. And after a year, the "content" we're talking about - annoying terrain and pointless trash mobs - has indeed become utterly meaningless and banal.

And you know what. If you really think that overland travel adds to your game experience, you're more than welcome to stick to your ground mount. Hell, why even ruin your game with a ground mount? Stay on foot! And while we're at it, turn off running, because, you know, that enables you to bypass content

When you're bypassing content, that means you're bypassing content regardless of whether you consider it as meaningful.

I do think that ground travel adds to the experience, however if I decided to go with it while others flew then I'd only detriment myself with it in comparison to others. If I were a casual player then I wouldn't mind it at all, but sadly that's not the case. But hey, glad you managed to almost make a compelling argument, oh yeah it wasn't.

I suggest that stop being so patronising and telling people what their motives are because clearly you have no clue.

WoW is a video game. The point of a video game is to have fun. Travelling without flying when you're exploring/discovering new content is fun. Travelling without flying in content that you've already explored is less fun. The more time you spend travelling in familiar content, the less fun it becomes, to the extent that travelling without flying in content that you've been travelling without flying in for months becomes tedious.

Lamenting the "cost of engagement and content" when that "engagement and content" you're talking about adds nothing of value to the game experience is pointless. And if you stop to think about it for a few seconds, what exactly do we all do with that time saved from tedious travel? That's right. We engage with actual meaningful content.

I'm not telling people what their motives are, they are actually telling me. Just like you are right now, the motives are still the same.

And there you go again deciding what meaningful content is for people. I'd suggest you stop patronising and telling people what their meaningful content is because you clearly have no clue.
Oh yes, thats a nice argument right? Don't you love it. In reality if whatever you do outdoors wasn't meaningful then you wouldn't be there in the first place, so that content you want to bypass is actually meaningful.

Flying does not hurt WPvP. It's not a point of "fact". It's your (poorly formed) opinion.

What hurts WPvP is the fact that most players don't actually like WPvP. This fact is proven by the fact that so many players would choose to use flying to avoid it.

Sure, I get that some people like to claim that they like WPvP, but the facts are borne out by what actually happens in reality.

You see, what people do like is to defeat other players in PvP combat. What people don't like is getting defeated, especially in a conflict in which they have little or no chance of prevailing. So what tends to happen in WPvP is that players will try to do everything in their power to stack the odds in their favour, and then only when they reckon that they have a good chance of winning, do they commit to engaging in WPvP. Apply a little bit of logic, and what becomes immediately evident is that WPvP tends to almost always become a one-sided affair, with the party who initiates it being keen to engage, and the "victim" not enjoying it at all.

So then why do people bother to play with WM on? I would have thought it was obvious: The extra rewards, the mounts, the achievements, the titles, the toys, the xmogs. I honestly do not believe that WM is filled with players who love PvP, who are there for the fight, even if it means getting their ass kicked repeatedly. They are there for the rewards, plain and simple.

It's zero surprise to me the surge in how many people switched to WM after Pathfinder II. Because finally players have a way to have their cake and eat it. They can get their WM rewards while (mostly) avoiding any actual PvP (because now they can fly away).

Flying is not the problem. The problem is that people don't like WPvP and Blizzard, because of their fixation on the idea that this game needs to have inter-faction conflict, have tried to bribe players into WPvP. As far as I am concerned, Blizzard should remove the extra rewards from WM. They should also make any exclusive rewards available without WM. And if flying really was reducing WPvP, then they should remove flying from WM. Then we'd get a true idea of just much people actually like WPvP. But of course Blizzard won't do that because they want us engaging in WPvP.

Flying does actually hurt WPvP, its not an opinion it is a simple fact.

If people don't like WPvP they could (previously transfer to PvE realm) turn Warmode off, that simple. People use flying because it speeds their other activities, that too is just that simple.

You see, what you described would be what the people you claim that don't like WPvP would do. Those who actually do like WPvP would initiate combat whether or not they're feeling like a sure winner. Sure very few actually engage when they're at 1% health but that just means they have little to no chance of winning.

WM extra rewards are there to compensate for the time it takes to battle with one and another. Its a flawed system that needs to be there because of how the game has these rather endless grinds. If you were to take those grinds, like AP, completely away then people who enjoy WPvP would be the ones that keep it on.

And as you said, flying helps avoiding PvP so that means flying hurts WPvP.

Flying is not THE problem, flying is A problem and it does hurt WPvP. As far as I'm concerned WM all together was a mistake and everything should still be realm bound.
Rewards that are tied to WPvP should only be available from WPvP, just like arena mounts are from arena and raid mounts are from raids.
If flying was removed from WM then it should be removed from non-WM as well. Saying that we'd see how much people like WPvP by taking flying away from WM is as idiotic as saying we'd see how much people like Flying if we took every WQ, ore, herb, mob, instance portal, basically everything but terrain away from "Flying mode". But hey lets do that and see how much people like it!

[Paraka]

Keep pathfinder, no timegate. But raise the requirements.

Main story completed, exalted reps, certain gear level (would wager Heroic Dungeon average).

[Eosia]

Given all the noise Blizzard is making about player agency and returning skills and abilities via the "Great Un-Pruning", I could absolutely see them trying a new system where flying is unlocked on a zone-by-zone basis, if only to see how it's received by the playerbase. After all, isn't this the reasoning they used to try and remove flight in WoD? That they wanted to see how players would react to a world without flight?

No, their stated purpose was to experiment with delayed flight. It was to see if keeping us grounded was to see if it renewed the sense of danger to the world that was present in Vanilla and such. It was not to see simply what our reaction would be.

And tying this to ability "unpruning" is really grasping at straws. Flight was not pruned except for that brief time on Memorial Day Weekend in 2015 before Blizzard realized that had bungled the flight thing big time.

And besides, who's to say the next expansion won't likewise be unconstrained by having to have contiguous land masses? If we're going to the Void, or some other similarly fantastical locale, they could easily maintain the "new" pathfinder.

Well, considering this is the 8th expansion and the first to not have new zones that were part of continents I would not hold your breath. Not to mention the fact that Blizzard is not going to lock themselves into a design choice. That's part of what happened with flight to begin with.

[Villager720]

Meh.
I think it should come sooner than it does, but I really don’t mind it too much.

[Daedius]

For current content as is, for prior expansions removed and the achievements made legacy.

[Syrah-the-Old-One]

i'd hide the ability to fly behind a 1st tier raid boss personally.

-wouldn't hurt the intended levelling experience of the 1st character you decide to level up
-would have lore reasons to happen (easy to explain. just make the boss the comamnder of an anti-air force, a super powerful air elemental that prevents from flying, or anything like these two examples)
-would require preparation and could be achieved right after getting at max level.
-could be modulable (for example, you could need to kill the boss three times in LFR, and just once in other difficulty settings)

[Amsden]

Remove the requirement from previous expansions. Make it available at launch. I shouldn't have to wait a year to fly.

[Dhrizzle]

For current content as is, for prior expansions removed and the achievements made legacy.

I'd keep the achievements as they award mounts but I agree that flight should be unlocked for out-of-date expansions.

[Sithalos]

Pathfinder is fine, just remove the time gating.