Maximizing Player Agency: Covenants

[CerealLord]

No, if you're doing any kind of content that isn't like tourist mode LFR, you need to optimize. Go and do normal and heroic raids and see how much people tolerate it when you show up with no enchants, no gems, no flask, no rune and no bufffood. Even mythic raiders aren't all world first raiders. That doesn't mean they don't care about progression.

And I gave you an example of my raid team not caring about min-maxing. Yes, we had runes, but provide flasks and buff food to the entire raid, regardless if anyone contributes since I just buy tokens to fund the GB. If one of my friends is doing 5% less DPS because they have a playstyle they like, who cares? Did the boss die? Yes? Awesome. It's defeated. If someone wants to min-max great! All the power to them, but stating it is "forced" is just in complete fallacy.

In your mind it is forced because you want to argue that EVERYONE has to min-max, when in fact, you are wrong.

EDIT: Hell, we never even used runes until it was close to a kill because its just a waste to use them on wipes, imo.

[kendro1200]

Will they care about dropping subscriber numbers?

Nope, because they have added those microtransactions that are tied to keeping subscriptions active.
No need to worry about subs when you can release a new mount that you can only get if you purchase a six month sub and pay an additional $20! Sure people will get sick and stop playing, but it doesn't matter, they already bought the 6 month sub.
That sparkly pony at the end of WotLK should have been fought against much harder by the community. Now that Blizzard has microtransactions firmly in the game, they have no incentive to keep subs up. If subs drop, they have one artist spend an afternoon or a day to make a mount or pet that will net them an extra million in revenue.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Are you playing a different version of the game where mobs don't use abilities? If anything, it's easier to do damage with it in PvE because they won't stop using their abilities when it is active.

You can count all the the mobs within each given raid tier that constantly spam skills on one hand, especially in boss fights. The ability has a 6 second duration and 3 charges max with a 2 minute CD. I can't really help you if you think this would be a sane choice for anyone interested in PvE content, the soulbinds would have to be outrageous passives to compensate (at which point they become the top choice since passives have less room for error) for the lack of general usability.

Especially over something like the Kyrean ability which would turn one of your high damage nukes every 30 seconds into flat out double damage (the spells leading up to into increased by 25% increments)

[A Chozo]

No, if you're doing any kind of content that isn't like tourist mode LFR, you need to optimize.

I raid heroic with my guild, we've been doing this since Emerald Nightmare. I've been one of the two tanks in the Eternal Palace.

We don't min-max, we kill the final boss in two months tops, then do it again the next raid. There are people who do the research, go for the BiS, top the charts, and they are fine with the rest of us who don't do the research, who don't care about BiS stuff. The min-maxers are ok with the laid-back style of the other raiders, everyone else is fine with their constant simulations and theorycrafting,

You want to know the trick? In a fight, we all do our best. Our best dps is this Outlaw Rogue who don't even do M+ nor farm Nazjatar Benthic gear, but the motherfucker knows his class well enough to pull some crazy numbers in a fight. He's not world first material, but for Heroic Raiding he's damn fine. Meanwhile the other Outlaw rogue - the min-maxer guy - messes up a little bit on his rotation and his DPS goes down enough, because not even min-maxing can fix the difference that fingers connected to a hand make.

There are no freeloaders, but there's also no idiot obsessed (key-word: obsessed) on our core who thinks that everyone must min-max to a extreme to kill the Heroic Bosses. We increase our chances at killing bosses by trying and calming the fuck down to listen to the raid leader calls.

You need to step outside your bubble and understand that people can do hard (but not the hardest) content fine without min-maxing in WoW or in other games. This is the equivalent of Fighting Game enthusiasts and their tierlists, but in the mmorpg-genre. They can follow their tierlists all they want, this won't stop others from picking low tier characters because it's fun.

[therealstegblob]

I raid heroic with my guild, we've been doing this since Emerald Nightmare. I've been one of the two tanks in the Eternal Palace.

We don't min-max, we kill the final boss in two months tops, then do it again the next raid. There are people who do the research, go for the BiS, top the charts, and they are fine with the rest of us who don't do the research, who don't care about BiS stuff. The min-maxers are ok with the laid-back style of the other raiders, everyone else is fine with their constant simulations and theorycrafting,

You want to know the trick? In a fight, we all do our best. Our best dps is this Outlaw Rogue who don't even do M+ nor farm Nazjatar Benthic gear, but the motherfucker knows his class well enough to pull some crazy numbers in a fight. He's not world first material, but for Heroic Raiding he's damn fine. Meanwhile the other Outlaw rogue - the min-maxer guy - messes up a little bit on his rotation and his DPS goes down enough, because not even min-maxing can fix the difference that fingers connected to a hand make.

There are no freeloaders, but there's also no idiot obsessed (key-word: obsessed) on our core who thinks that everyone must min-max to a extreme to kill the Heroic Bosses. We increase our chances at killing bosses by trying and calming the fuck down to listen to the raid leader calls.

You need to step outside your bubble and understand that people can do hard (but not the hardest) content fine without min-maxing in WoW or in other games. This is the equivalent of Fighting Game enthusiasts and their tierlists, but in the mmorpg-genre. They can follow their tierlists all they want, this won't stop others from picking low tier characters because it's fun.

You're totally missing their point. While I agree they're arguing about it a little too much and because so many people are challenging their point that they're doing off on a bit of a tangent, Nosgoth isn't saying "you need to minmax in order to down raids", they're saying that people generally have an expectation for minmaxing and that, no matter what level of raiding you're at, people will be concerned with picking the "best" choice for themselves in order to (theoretically, or at least give the self-illusion of) boost their numbers.

It's true that, for the most part, severe minmaxing is only going to really matter in world first races because that's a situation where every tiny bit of number pushing helps put you ahead of the competition. It isn't about any one single thing being the deciding factor (as someone else was arguing before), it's about a collection of many different things all adding up to an ultimate deciding force. Even if it ultimately won't matter much for casual raiders, it's that a lot of people will believe it will.

[crakerjack]

First off, beta hasn't begun so I'm sure things will be balanced by the time the expansion launches. We aren't committed to a covenant until we choose to be, so we're able to test out all the abilities to make sure we pick the right one. Also blizzard stated that these abilities won't be significant. Regardless of what you pick, I can't imagine they'll make more than a 5% difference, if that. Just pick a covenant based on what you side with and don't worry about the rest. What covenant you pick won't determine whether you're able to complete a +10 or kill a particular boss on mythic difficulty.

[clevin]

The players who min max don't do it because others tell them to do it, they do it because they know it is necessary.

No, they do it because they THINK it's necessary when, for all but maybe the top 100 guilds, it's not. Most of the people who screech about it being necessary are heroic or entry mythic try hard guilds who would get more results out of playing a little better vs worrying about min-maxing stuff like this. See below for an example.

- - - Updated - - -

You want to know the trick? In a fight, we all do our best. Our best dps is this Outlaw Rogue who don't even do M+ nor farm Nazjatar Benthic gear, but the motherfucker knows his class well enough to pull some crazy numbers in a fight. He's not world first material, but for Heroic Raiding he's damn fine. Meanwhile the other Outlaw rogue - the min-maxer guy - messes up a little bit on his rotation and his DPS goes down enough, because not even min-maxing can fix the difference that fingers connected to a hand make.
]

The only place where min-maxing really makes a difference worth worrying about is when everyone is playing at a very high, almost perfect level and especially early in a tier when you're relatively under geared. Aside from that, it's just an ego trip.

[Nosgoth]

There are people who do the research, go for the BiS, top the charts, and they are fine with the rest of us who don't do the research, who don't care about BiS stuff. The min-maxers are ok with the laid-back style of the other raiders, everyone else is fine with their constant simulations and theorycrafting,

Why? It means they are carrying you. Why would they be ok with that?

You want to know the trick? In a fight, we all do our best.

You might be doing your best in the fight, but you are not doing it outside of the fight.

You know what min maxing entails right now in the game? A lot of work and time invested outside of raids, grinding manapearls and Azerite. There is no way that someone who grinds his ass off multiple hours every day is ok with carrying a raid full of people who don't.

- - - Updated - - -

And I gave you an example of my raid team not caring about min-maxing. Yes, we had runes, but provide flasks and buff food to the entire raid, regardless if anyone contributes since I just buy tokens to fund the GB. If one of my friends is doing 5% less DPS because they have a playstyle they like, who cares? Did the boss die? Yes? Awesome. It's defeated.

The point is, what if the boss doesn't die because your friend did 5% dps less? If your entire raid can half-ass fights and you still kill the bosses, you are not doing challenging content, so your experience is irrelevant.

- - - Updated - - -

They dont care about subs, they care about Cash shop items

More subs = more people buying things on the shop.

Someone who isn't súbbed isn't gonna buy a mount for a game he doesn't play.

[CerealLord]

The point is, what if the boss doesn't die because your friend did 5% dps less? If your entire raid can half-ass fights and you still kill the bosses, you are not doing challenging content, so your experience is irrelevant.

Lol. I already said we clear CE before the end of the patch and the achievement goes away. No, its not world first or anywhere near top, but its still "challenging content." Also, you act like mythic raiders are who the game should be catering to. Hint: They aren't.

[huth]

The point is, what if the boss doesn't die because your friend did 5% dps less?

And how often does that actually happen, compared to other wipe reasons? In my experience, it's probably the least common one by a significant margin.

[Nosgoth]

Lol. I already said we clear CE before the end of the patch and the achievement goes away. No, its not world first or anywhere near top, but its still "challenging content." Also, you act like mythic raiders are who the game should be catering to. Hint: They aren't.

If your entire raid can half-ass fights and you still kill the bosses, you are not doing challenging content

- - - Updated - - -

And how often does that actually happen, compared to other wipe reasons? In my experience, it's probably the least common one by a significant margin.

If DPS doesn't matter, you are not doing challenging content.

[huth]

You can count all the the mobs within each given raid tier that constantly spam skills on one hand, especially in boss fights.

Your claim is that it is useless. I.e. there are no mobs in relevant encounters that use skills at all. That's rather rare to put it nicely.

Numbers are irrelevant at this stage. Those will get changed before release anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

If DPS doesn't matter, you are not doing challenging content.

Patchwerk hasn't been challenging content since Vanilla. People that put DPS over everything else are a common source of wipes, not good raiders.

[A Chozo]

Why? It means they are carrying you. Why would they be ok with that?

You might be doing your best in the fight, but you are not doing it outside of the fight.

You know what min maxing entails right now in the game? A lot of work and time invested outside of raids, grinding manapearls and Azerite. There is no way that someone who grinds his ass off multiple hours every day is ok with carrying a raid full of people who don't.

They are totally ok. We are good company, the final bosses dies, they get to be the best of our guild, we share mats for foods, flasks, etc. Raid night is a very fun day.

They are fine with it because they know that their min-maxing is not what's killing the boss - it's not a necessity.

You need to understand that there are many different players in this community, and Blizzard is catering to a majority that cares not about min-maxing, especially in settings that don't need it at all like heroic raiding, m+ until the higher keys, etc. Hence, we'll have weird-ass covenant abilities. Takes a bit of empathy to understand the diversity of the playerbase, but once you do, you'll get it.

[Twdft]

Why? It means they are carrying you. Why would they be ok with that?

You might be doing your best in the fight, but you are not doing it outside of the fight.

And that's exactly the point. Every raid outside of world first race carries someone in their raid. They can achieve their goals even if not everyone is at the absolute optimum, when not everyone has farmed their ass off for maximum azerite etc. Yes, it is good to prepare as best as you can, but no it is not an absolute hard requirement to achieve your goal.

So outside of world first where you actually have to do everything in your control, guilds decide what kind of dedication they require. Most will say you got to have the best enchents and gems (costs just a little gold), but will let you choose the covenant (needs many hours of gameplay) you like best.

[Super Kami Dende]

The majority of people that complain about "min-maxers" don't even play the game anymore.

Lol, if you think more People who play this game care about M+ representation than do not, you are severely delusional.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope, because they have added those microtransactions that are tied to keeping subscriptions active.
No need to worry about subs when you can release a new mount that you can only get if you purchase a six month sub and pay an additional $20!

You realise the 6 month mount promotion you saved $20 as opposed to what you'd pay for 6 single payment subs and the mount also was coming out on the Store later on thus was a free mount for People that were already going to be playing for that time period.

- - - Updated - - -

Why? It means they are carrying you. Why would they be ok with that?

Lets be real here, most People that play FotM classes that are highly tuned and then worry so much about Min-maxing only do so because they know they'd be trash otherwise. They are the same People that costantly reroll to the current OP unbalanced DPS instead of sticking to the same Class because they know they would be subpar without just being unbalanced.

It's why everytime I join a Group for high Mythic+ runs on my WW, all the "OP" classes still struggle to actually do reasonable DPS and end up being on par with the Tank. Imagine how trash they'd be if they didn't have unbalanced specs to play lmfao.

[Nomads]

I mean you could choose to be worse on purpose. That certainly is a great way of contributing to it.

Players choose to be "worse" all the time across many games for a variety of reasons. The game isn't tuned so highly that it matters. It's actually designed so that the encounters gradually get easier and easier the more you do them and collect better gear.

You being an uber try hard isn't needed. If you want to play that way, go ahead. But when you get out DPS'd by some filthy casual who just plays his class better, I can't help but chuckle.

[Alvito]

Let's say some guild is progressing on Zaqul heroic 2 months after world first race is over... do you actually think the wrong covenant is all that's denying them the kill? If they just change to optimal Zaqul will fall? No, every single time they fail is because they fail to do the fight right, not because they could have 1% more theoretical dps.

Of course it isn't. Nobody said that. Being worse doesn't mean you also double down by setting your group up poorly on the fronside of things. There is a reason many groups only kill things when they out gear it.

[Sinfelle]

Lol, if you think more People who play this game care about M+ representation than do not, you are severely delusional.

- - - Updated - - -



You realise the 6 month mount promotion you saved $20 as opposed to what you'd pay for 6 single payment subs and the mount also was coming out on the Store later on thus was a free mount for People that were already going to be playing for that time period.

- - - Updated - - -



Lets be real here, most People that play FotM classes that are highly tuned and then worry so much about Min-maxing only do so because they know they'd be trash otherwise. They are the same People that costantly reroll to the current OP unbalanced DPS instead of sticking to the same Class because they know they would be subpar without just being unbalanced.

It's why everytime I join a Group for high Mythic+ runs on my WW, all the "OP" classes still struggle to actually do reasonable DPS and end up being on par with the Tank. Imagine how trash they'd be if they didn't have unbalanced specs to play lmfao.

In no way does your response to me make any sense

[Nosgoth]

Players choose to be "worse" all the time across many games for a variety of reasons. The game isn't tuned so highly that it matters.

If it doesn't matter which ability you pick, because there is barely a difference, then the abilities and the entire system are bad. Why would a player even care about the abilities then? His choice doesn't matter.

- - - Updated - - -

Lets be real here, most People that play FotM classes that are highly tuned and then worry so much about Min-maxing only do so because they know they'd be trash otherwise. They are the same People that costantly reroll to the current OP unbalanced DPS instead of sticking to the same Class because they know they would be subpar without just being unbalanced.

It's why everytime I join a Group for high Mythic+ runs on my WW, all the "OP" classes still struggle to actually do reasonable DPS and end up being on par with the Tank. Imagine how trash they'd be if they didn't have unbalanced specs to play lmfao.

Who is talking about FotM classes?

- - - Updated - - -

And that's exactly the point. Every raid outside of world first race carries someone in their raid. They can achieve their goals even if not everyone is at the absolute optimum, when not everyone has farmed their ass off for maximum azerite etc. Yes, it is good to prepare as best as you can, but no it is not an absolute hard requirement to achieve your goal.
.

Yeah you're right. It's not an absolute requirement. You don't have to do it. As long as you can find an entire group of people who are willing to do it for you and make up for your laziness.

- - - Updated - - -

You need to understand that there are many different players in this community, and Blizzard is catering to a majority that cares not about min-maxing

Yeah, the majority of players only raid LFR.

- - - Updated - - -

Patchwerk hasn't been challenging content since Vanilla. People that put DPS over everything else are a common source of wipes, not good raiders.

No, DPS kills bosses. More DPS means the fights are shorter, means less time for mistakes, less pressure for healers etc. And if this doesn't matter for you, you are not doing challenging content.

[Nomads]

If it doesn't matter which ability you pick, because there is barely a difference, then the abilities and the entire system are bad. Why would a player even care about the abilities then? His choice doesn't matter.

That's like saying why pick Mario when Luigi has exactly the same abilities. Do you even play games?

I don't know about you, but I don't take games so seriously that I have to reduce it down to number equations and making choices I don't like thematically just so I can squeeze out extra big numbers. I have a successful job irl I'd rather do that with...

If that's what you like. Go ahead. But I think if you actually took a break and thought about it... you'd probably find you don't like it either.

I pick Luigi because I like green...