How the hell Kael'thas went to Revendreth, meanwhile Arthas went to Maw?

[Villager720]

On top of all his well known Azerothian sins, it looks like our boy Arthas was wielding artifacts and death-juju stolen from the Shadowlands.
I bet that doesn't go over well when you arrive in from of the Arbiter.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Arthas killed millions of people as King and Lich King...

[Grahper]

We don't know if the place presented to us is the Maw (though is a plausible assumption)

It is the Maw. It couldn't be anything else.

[Ielenia]

See, this is what I disagree on. Before Arthas died, when he told his father "Is it over," he was, IMO, relieved to be rid of being the Lich King/having his soul freed from Frostmourne--a step towards penance. Kael, however, gladly sold his soul to KJ for power.

I agree with this. Everything Kael'Thas did, as far as we know, was done with a sound mind, without any outside influence guiding his thoughts, whereas Arthas' actions and thoughts were dictated the moment he wrapped his fingers around Frostmourne for the first time.

Yes, he killed the whole city of Stratholme, but that was not an act of evil, but something done out of necessity to keep the plague from spreading, in his mind, since the people were infected with the Plague grain. A 'mercy killing', if you will.

[Malacrass]

Kael did terrible things for his people in a opportunistic and selfish manner until his first death. Everything after the infusion with the Demon Crystal doesn't really count in my opinion - and that's where the real cray cray started.

Arthas was a monster even before he touched Frostmourne. Nerzhul picked him for that reason, he saw that this oh-so noble prince was the perfect tool.

Yes, he killed the whole city of Stratholme, but that was not an act of evil, but something done out of necessity to keep the plague from spreading, in his mind, since the people were infected with the Plague grain. A 'mercy killing', if you will.

Killing the mercenaries was also an act of mercy, I guess.

[styil]

Kael'thas went to Revendreth because he was merely a setback.

[choochooImaPlane]

I feel like when I'm reading this and most people calling Arthas a bratty Prince, never even read his story. Arthas never acted like a normal prince and was also concerned for his people's well-being when growing up. He was connected to his people, he loved his people and his father saw this in him and allowed him to refrain from regular duties and hang out with the common people. We see when Arthas came to Stratholme he knew there was no other option, he knew that everyone that had eaten the bread was now infected and would turn into the undead. There was no cure and no way to quarantine the city because there would be no way to separate the people from those that were infected and those that weren't and if he didn't purge the city, then it would of been overrun with undead and would of been unstoppable and burst out of the city and ravaged everywhere.

And when he purged the city, it wasn;t about murdering his people, he knew what he was doing and it was the only way, he struggled with it when killing the first person which was a teenager that didn't know what was going on, he couldn't even call the light to help him because he knew it wouldn't help here. The only bad thing I can say he did on his own accord was burning his ships and blaming the mercenaries, and then murdering them, but even through his slow decent and the whispers he still saw that justified as he saw them as people who would do anything for coin so they weren't good people. And when he took up Frostmourne, he didn;t know it would take his soul, he only knew it would curse him, which he would do in a heartbeat to save the people he loved and cared about. And when he returned to camp with Frostmourne, he didn't murder his men straight away, after defeating Mal'ganis the whispers took hold of him and he ran off into the frozen wastes where he became a deathknight, then he killed his men after his soul was now gone.

When he returned home, and began turning his citizens into the undead, he still saw them as his people, there was still a part of him that wanted to protect them. He thought Uther and almost lost, when he dropped Frostmourne he could see the errors he had made, the light was ready to forgive him because he knew it was wrong, but survival kicked in, he grabbed Frostmourne and defeated Uther, and he didn't him because he knew it was wrong. Hell even when he went to Quel'thalas all he did was to get through to the Sunwell, he wasn't there to kill the Elves, but because of their attempts to stop him he got the shits and slaughtered them, but even Sylvanas saw that when he was doing this, there was regret in it, that he didn't want to do it.

It wasn't until after he was finally defeated and his soul was released from Frostmourne was he truly free, he knew what he had been doing but he was unable to do anything about it, only small parts of him were able to keep him out bay from going all out and destroying the whole world. How after you collect his chest and give back the items that he kept onto shows that he still had a tiny bit of humanity left in him.

Where as with Kael, he always saw himself as better than the Humans because he was an Elf. Kael was fucked over big time and all his failings of not been there to defend his home, to save his father, or the destruction of the Sunwell got to him. And when he was betrayed by Garithos and joined Illidan, he needed something to sustain his magical lust for himself and his people, and Illidan introduced him to taking that from demons, which slowly drives you crazy and wanting more. And because of that all he wanted was more power, it wasn't about helping his people anymore, it was about gaining more power for himself and he sold out whoever he wanted to get it, he was done with Azeroth, with his people, for him it was over and there was only power.

[apples]

I do not think this is about how much evil a person did, how many people they killed per se, etc... but seems to be if the person is redeemable, or not.

If someone, at the bottom of their heart, feels any kind of guilt or remorse then they can be redeemed, if they have none, or could not possibly feel guilty for the things they did, then they would most likely go to the Maw.

>be guy going about my own business
>kill someone accidentally, dont feel all that bad about it because it was an accident
>go to the maw when i die

>be guy going about my own business
>kill every living being in the multiverse
>feel guilty about it and kill myself
>be redeemed after i die

[Kralljin]

He thought he was better than everyone and it showed even before he got his hands on Frostmourne.

Not really.
Arthas was rather welcoming towards peasants and the love for his people was exploited by the Lich king, it's what drove him over the edge.

Even when taking up Frostmourne, he straight up said that he'd bear any curse to save his people.
Arthas allowed himself to be turned into a pawn, that's where his major mistake lied, after that, the "human" Arthas was basically gone, one of the first remarks in the UD campaign is that Arthas basically stopped feeling anything because Frostmourne stole his soul.

He only wanted what was best for his people. Even if they had to serve the Legion to survive.

Kael'thas final words were "the world shall burn".

Sorry, but even attempting to white wash an Alliance with the Legion is just straight horse shit, the Legion created the Scourge, were the driving force behind turning Arthas into a villain.
There is no legitimate excuse for striking an allegiance with the Legion.

Arthas at the very least had the excuse of being a reckless young prince who basically went through a serious trauma of having to see his own people turning into zombies, which then made him disregard any warning that he might end up becoming the tool of the enemy.

Kael'thas sold his people to a force that is responsible for creating the very force that nearly eradicated them.
And he was even aware of the fact that the Scourge was a Legion creation.

[Kellorion]

Also, until Shadow, we have no idea wtf happened to Kael. We know Arthas story.

[Myzou]

Kael'thas thought what he was doing was good. Technically speaking, he wasn't inherently evil, and never died evil, just misguided with a false sense of morality.

Arthas wasn't evil, but he was corrupted, and in doing so, he *became* evil, and killed thousands of people.

Thus, Kael'thas went to Revendreth, most likely we'll find out that's where people who believe they were good but actually had evil beliefs were sent, and Arthas was sent to the Maw.

---

To the people trying to equivocate, it's more like:

Person A steals food as he believes it's perfectly acceptable, and is persecuted for it. This is Kael'thas.
Person B does not steal food as that's what he was taught, but is "peer-pressured" (corrupted) into stealing food, on a much grander scale. This is Arthas.

The Arbiter deems Person A is redeemable as he did not believe he was doing anything wrong, though he did kill and hurt many people in the process. Thus, they get sent to Revendreth.

Person B, however, KNEW he was doing wrong, and killed many more people in the process than Person A. Thus, the Arbiter believes Person B is not redeemable and sentences them to the Maw.

[Syegfryed]

Kael should have went to the twisting nether, at that point of corruption he pretty much became a demon


but tis the blizzard trick when things go poorly, just bring back old characters that people liked, "always work amright"

Cause create good new characters is either hard or impossible.

[allawyn]

Kael'thas sold the world to the Legion in TBC. Arthas did the same after Blackrock & Roll.

One of them went to Revendreth, the other went straight for the Maw.

Well, if you believe that whos-its (Kiljaden) put some mind control ju-ju on him....

[Edit] Also, isn't the Maw for those who are "dangerous" as much as "guilty"

[Niroshi]

Arthas created mass amounts of undead which seems to be a big no-no. Kael just summoned some demons and shit, don't even think anybody in the Shadowlands cares about that.

[eurojust]

People genuinely think that Arthas didn't love his people and wanted to turn them into undeads for the fun?

[Rozz]

Hm. I think it's because there is a bit of consideration into how consciously they made their decisions and how far it went.

Both started off trying to help their people, were manipulated, betrayed by an elf, nearly died several times, and abandoned all they used to hold dear for more power.

However Kael'Thas' main aim was to save his followers, no matter the cost or who else it hurt. If it helped his loyalists and himself, it was fine. That is probably why he still has to atone for his sins, but isn't in the Maw because he isn't irredeemable.

[kendro1200]

Hm. I think it's because there is a bit of consideration into how consciously they made their decisions and how far it went.

Both started off trying to help their people, were manipulated, betrayed by an elf, nearly died several times, and abandoned all they used to hold dear for more power.

However Kael'Thas' main aim was to save his followers, no matter the cost or who else it hurt. If it helped his loyalists and himself, it was fine. That is probably why he still has to atone for his sins, but isn't in the Maw because he isn't irredeemable.

Arthas' goal while he had a soul was to bear any cost to save his people. Then he took frostmourne and continued to fight the Legion in a new capacity. Then he became the Lich King and sought to protect from the Legion and Void by uniting the world in undeath. His end goals are admirable, save all people from annilhation, his means were deplorable but happened because he was damaged by Frostmourne. Kael'Thas was fully cognizant of his choices, and went from saving any people to just gather more power when the opportunity presented itself.
Any good storyteller would see the disconnect of one getting a redemption arc, but not the other. Blizzard can't do a redemption arc to just try and change past story decisions the old guard made. Own the story as it is and just make the next parts better.

[Selastan]

My theory is that Arthas the Lich King went to the Maw, Arthas the paladin might be elsewhere, or more likely destroyed. Kael did everything on his own, deserving punishment but possibly redemption. Everything good about Arthas died when he took up Frostmourne, or possibly when Arthas meditated while frozen atop Icecrown. It's a theme we saw everywhere in Rise of the Lich King and Wrath of the Lich King.

[Kalarm]

It may mean that there's a possibility of redemption for Kael'thas but that Arthas would never repent. Even Tirion realized there was no redeeming Arthas in Icecrown questing. Not that they've shied away from retcons in the past.

Not sure about that. Arthas without helm of domination and most importantly, his soul (stolen by frostmourne) is a different person than Arthas the Lich King. He fucked up and sacrified an important piece of himself to save his people. His personality then made him do terrible things. You gotta keep in mind that the Arthas we saw in the final WOTLK cinematic seeked solace in his father. I think Arthas would repent. I could see him become Kyrian in the end.

[Rozz]

Arthas' goal while he had a soul was to bear any cost to save his people. Then he took frostmourne and continued to fight the Legion in a new capacity. Then he became the Lich King and sought to protect from the Legion and Void by uniting the world in undeath. His end goals are admirable, save all people from annilhation, his means were deplorable but happened because he was damaged by Frostmourne. Kael'Thas was fully cognizant of his choices, and went from saving any people to just gather more power when the opportunity presented itself.
Any good storyteller would see the disconnect of one getting a redemption arc, but not the other. Blizzard can't do a redemption arc to just try and change past story decisions the old guard made. Own the story as it is and just make the next parts better.

His end goals still didn't expand to a benefit those beyond himself, he betrayed loved ones before/after the sword, he was always quick to make the 'tough decision', had far more chances to turn back, and his version of saving everything was by ending it. It's clear that Arthas was no longer acting on behalf of noble interests, even before he got the helm. You could even argue that before he got his sword, his pride and the need to prove himself came before any real consideration of his people. He wanted to be a good prince, at the cost of his own morals and values. He was always too eager and impatient, that's even how Invincible died. Arthas became irredeemable long before he became the Lich King.

A paranoid failure whose final act of saving his people via enslavement is a lesser evil. There is no disconnect, because Arthas is one of Azeroth's greatest villains and had a larger impact on the planet and its history. I love both characters, but their triumphs and demises hit very different notes. If you think these characters are one in the same, then we just have to agree to disagree. I don't think that's arguable in any capacity other than the progression of their story lines. The extent/reach of their stories are so different. They're baddies, but one boy was far naughtier way earlier and became much more heinous/ruthless. I also don't remember Kael'Thas permitting experiments/torture on the living to advance scourge alchemy/constructs, but you know. Just Lich King things. I'm willing to admit that Arthas changed and was being manipulated, but that's a similar excuse for Sylvanas, Kael (paranoid fel-crack head), etc. None of them were 'themselves' when they became antagonists, but Arthas takes the cake with Sylvanas being a close second.