What rewards does raiding need to make it more appealing?

[Pony Soldier]

I don't think it has anything to do with rewards. I think it has more to do with sitting in a discord chat for 3 hours with people you barely know in order to play a video game. Either the content is fun to do or it isn't. It already gives the best gear or close enough to it. If that isn't enough of a reward then the content itself probably needs changing.

I'm pretty much in the same boat here. I think the rewards are fine it's the gameplay itself in raids. I, myself, do not find raids to be all that fun anymore.

First off it requires way too much time out of my day. You could spend like 5 hours in a single raid and to me that is a total, HUGE waste of time that could've been spent doing other things in the game or outside of it. Also the fact that you're with people you don't know makes it even worse. I just do not have the patience to sit in one raid all day with a bunch of anti-social douchebags who don't respond to you until you make a simple mistake. This is why I and many other people love LFR.

Second, raids these days feel like they just consist of a huge amount of mobs with bosses scattered around. Maybe that's how they've always been but since there's no use for CC anymore it just makes for a very draining and boring time. It's always the same grab as many mobs as you can and kill them all. There's no preparation or strategy anymore which is what made those kind of instances fun.

I don't know about other people but I feel absolutely exhausted after a single raid and I often feel like not playing anymore. It honestly burns me out faster than anything else in the game.

[freddy090909]

Honestly, I don't think it needs better rewards. What it needs is to allow for a smaller raid group size. Even 15 would be a whole heck of a lot easier to maintain. Smaller group sizes also get you closer to a tight-knit group, with fewer "filler" players with high turnover. Of course, I have no expectation that Blizz would do it, because it'd suddenly nuke 5 people's raid spot on every team

[Nefarious Tea]

This has been proven in many examples to be false. Take lfr away and people who do lfr will just not raid at all.

What are you talking about? No it hasn't.

The only way to prove that people who currently only raid LFR wouldn't raid if it didn't exist would be to remove LFR. That's literally the only way to test it.

[Dreadgear]

Just bring back class sets, i don't care if there are bonuses or not. I just wanna look cool. Other than that i don't expect gear to be exciting ever again especially with blizzard's mantra.

[dpszr]

trinkets that are fun and good they made a good start in bfa near the end

[Eapoe]

This is precisely the problem. Though raiders will never admit it, because these things make it very convenient for them.

RIO, Gearscore, Armory, Achievements - All of these were introduced as ways for people to vet group members before inviting them, so they can have more successful raid runs by ensuring the people who they invite have some knowledge of what to do before inviting.

The problem these things have, is it makes it FAR too convenient to deny people access to groups. We see it most in RIO - You're denied for most M+ groups if you haven't done enough M+ this season to have a high score. You're denied from progress groups in the raid finder because you don't have better gear than the gear that drops in raid. You're denied access to today's raid because you haven't already cleared today's raid before.

I fully understand the opposite point of view - You have every right to deny people from your group for any reason. But this hurts the game, because it doesn't foster growth. Players simply find a wall at some point because other players won't invite them, and they can't lead because they haven't done the content before. And when they hit that wall - They stop. There is no fun in trying to find a group, and it's especially worse when you keep getting denied access to groups because players don't like your ilevel or score. Why even bother to TRY to join that scene when you already hate the idea of spending time in that scene?

So yeah. This is long winded and it's essentially just agreeing with you, but I'm quite upset by these things as I'm sure you can tell.

Sure, because I know when I was raiding I’d be happy to wipe on the same boss over and over with no progression or a chance at a kill due Sam Selfishnesston wanting to just play as bad as possible as long as it’s fun for him/her.
No, I don’t mean just 1 person, as carries happen for a reason; but, I am talking about in your perfectly realistic scenario of “everyone gets a chance to play” mentality there will be multiple of these types of players holding the rest of the group back that is there giving it their all.

[Schmilblick]

Nothing, raiding too much time and commitment.

[Gsara]

Until they bring back 10 man raiding, it will continue to die out more and more. 10 man raiding was killing 25 man so they got rid of it, worst mistake ever.

[La]

Tier bonuses and tier sets should 100% come back. Tier bonuses were great for slightly changing up the playstyle of specs every raid tier, minus the first tier that was generally basic and boring so people could learn their class that wasn't pruned to shit, back in the day.

Beyond that I think 10 mans should definitely come back for sure. One of the main reasons they removed it was because of the "balance", and how often 10m x fight was easier than 25m, or vise versa.

They basically need to stop catering the game toward the marketing that the "world first" race gives them, when WoW and the MMO genre doesn't really appeal to anyone anyway by seeing that type of thing. 20 man raids are just too big when most of the time there's usually only 5-10 people in those said raid guilds that actually are friends and hang out with the rest just being there. That always leads to recruitment problems because you have half of your guild loyal and half who have no real commitment to stay.

[kaminaris]

Which, even if we take your anecdotal, already admitted to be fake numbers to be gospel... We're talking at most, provably, a 13% drop.

While we're talking much, much larger percentages of raid population drop.

Which, if you would pull your head out of your ass for two seconds, would have made this a lot easier to explain - Your entire position is literal nonsense. It doesn't explain what you think it explains, even in the best case scenario for you, which is not provably true - It's potentially true, but that isn't proof. The numbers you keep spouting, the people who actually found them denounced them, saying they were not indicitive of what he thought.

So, in fact, your deduction is still based in delusion - falsehood - denial of fact. You have to deny the fact that the numbers you spout are not true to say what you say and still believe it. You are in fact the bullshitter. You were so close. But I guess introspection isn't one of your strong suits.

Not that that was hard to guess. Shouting "stats stats stats" and not listening to reason is not exactly a great argumentative strategy.

Come on, you are not even trying. 13% drop of overall population is even optimistic version while ~15% drop was within raiding population. If we take that as error margin since realmpop is not 100% accurate it will all come together as:

Overall participation percentage in raids stayed the same.

Your delusion is based on ignoring anything that is was proven to be true. comparing raw numbers is nonsense.
You are absolutely deluded that WoW has still the same population as in Legion. That is a fact.

[AmazonDruid]

So with no class sets or tier bonuses coming in Shadowlands initially what rewards do you think blizzard should add to raiding to make it more appealing for both casual and hardcore players? Or do you think raiding rewards are fine as is?

Wait, no class sets?!

I played at least 1 month of BFA before noticing it was garbage.

But Shadowlands...

Fool me once shame on you...

[Maquegyver]

That won't help at all. If someone doesn't raid now, he won't even if ilvl will be over 9000 while plebs will get 100 ilvl from other activities.
I know it's hard to grasp concept but currently raid HAVE best gear in game.
Titanforging had LITERALLY ZERO impact on mythic raiding.

Problem is only logistics, having 20 people, coordinating them etc. Nobody want's to do that shit anymore.

What could help:
1. Reducing team size to 10-15. Much easier to maintain
2. Removing server barrier for mythic.
3. Maybe removing stupid locks for mythic.
4. Removing week lockout for heroic/normal. Yes I said it. M+ is farmable now and will reward higher than heroic gear. So why keep lockout on raid bosses? (maybe keep weekly lockout for mythic but in heroic style so you can actually take anyone to fill up rooster).

People like myself are stepping down from Raiding precisely because of titanforging, caches, benthic, and M+... Additionally, they reset gear each fucking patch now. All the work is erased 4-6 months later. Whats the point. I can go play D3, PoE, etc. and get a far better season experience than wow. Why bother being part of a team when you can do heroic only with a fraction of the effort do a +10 once a week and get the same reward...

Get rid of Benthic aside from catchup only. No socket. Not BIS. Get rid of unlimited M+ farming. Get rid of caches or add a raid one back into the game. Simple. They do that and I would consider participating in what made WoW successful which is the highest level of raiding. Otherwise this game is no different than 100 others.

[kaminaris]

People like myself are stepping down from Raiding precisely because of titanforging, caches, benthic, and M+... Additionally, they reset gear each fucking patch now. All the work is erased 4-6 months later. Whats the point. I can go play D3, PoE, etc. and get a far better season experience than wow. Why bother being part of a team when you can do heroic only with a fraction of the effort do a +10 once a week and get the same reward...

Get rid of Benthic aside from catchup only. No socket. Not BIS. Get rid of unlimited M+ farming. Get rid of caches or add a raid one back into the game. Simple. They do that and I would consider participating in what made WoW successful which is the highest level of raiding. Otherwise this game is no different than 100 others.

Thats bullshit, each new tier always resetted your gear so people with just a bit common sense realized that 10 years ago, that gear doesn't matter.

[ydraw]

M+ has basically become the 10man Heroic mode, it requires less organization than its counterpart (raiding in general) and hands out the same rewards, so people obviously flock towards that one.
Because the M+ is overall much more flexible than raiding on top of that, you don't have to sit down for 3-4h a night, you can just play like 1-2 dungeons and call it.

Another thing a lot of people don't get about M+ is that it runs better. I hate raids with more than 15 or so people. The performance decrease is significant. I never get FPS lag doing M+. I actually get to play the game as it was meant to be played. That for me is one of the major reasons I prefer M+ to raiding.

It's the main reason I preferred 10 man raiding when 10 man raiding was a thing, and it's the main reason I prefer M+ now.

It doesn't help that Blizzard long ago abandoned any attempt to balance numbers in flex mode raiding. It's almost always better to have more people now. So most PUG heroic raids you join have 25+ people and that causes my PC to chug.

- - - Updated - - -

What are you talking about? No it hasn't.

The only way to prove that people who currently only raid LFR wouldn't raid if it didn't exist would be to remove LFR. That's literally the only way to test it.

Or you know, they can just point to the massive increase in raid participation that LFR brought when it launched, and not have to remove it to know something that everyone already knows. They are not going to remove the most popular raiding mode in the game to test your theory, lol. You're just going to have to accept that LFR is here to stay. If they removed any mode of raiding, it would be Mythic, not LFR.

[Malikath]

Easy, being inside a BETTER GAME.

- - - Updated - - -

People like myself are stepping down from Raiding precisely because of titanforging, caches, benthic, and M+... Additionally, they reset gear each fucking patch now. All the work is erased 4-6 months later. Whats the point. I can go play D3, PoE, etc. and get a far better season experience than wow. Why bother being part of a team when you can do heroic only with a fraction of the effort do a +10 once a week and get the same reward...

Get rid of Benthic aside from catchup only. No socket. Not BIS. Get rid of unlimited M+ farming. Get rid of caches or add a raid one back into the game. Simple. They do that and I would consider participating in what made WoW successful which is the highest level of raiding. Otherwise this game is no different than 100 others.

Same, I hated thunderforging farm runs back in MoP and the fact WoD ruined the classes, made WoW grindier then ever before, and made thunder-forging a game-wide proc roll killed my top 50 US guild.

[Eapoe]

Which is necessary for a functional game with a population of willing participants. If no one is willing to step up and allow new players into the new content - shockingly - new players simply don't enter the new content.

As I said - I understand the other point of view. It's just not sustainable in the long run. It's guaranteed to kill the raiding population, slowly over time as the raiders within give up raiding, and new players aren't there to replace them.

- - - Updated - - -



That's a bold assumption. Care to provide any numbers to back this up?

What am I saying, of course you aren't, you have none. We've been over that a billion times. The number you gave is made up, the realm pop number is made up, and you presume because they're similar they must be the same. So this is still you baselessly assuming things. In fact, this is literally the assumption which keeps this argument going - The idea that population and raiding numbers MUST have decreased in tandem, and could not have possibly gone down in different percentages "because it must be true." It isn't.



That's funny, because you'd have to provide something that was proven true. Nothing you've provided has been proven, and everything in fact has been stated to be false.



Funny, because I quite literally said this:



So don't worry, you're only making yourself look worse here. You both ignore facts which contradict your opinion, AND you make up facts which support your opinion - Even when there's direct evidence to the contrary of your supposed 'facts.'

You could not be more specifically the definition of delusional.

I’ve never been in a raid guild that wasn’t willing to let new people in for tryouts; however, every one I have been in will give people trials to test out and see if they have the skills and ability to do the best they can. In a raiding environment, their best needs to be within the requirements of the guild standards. If a player continues to be sub par and/or unwilling to change their playstyle to be better then they are not going to make it in the guild.
To say “let everyone play how they want even if it means being completely detrimental to the team” is a fools statement. There are different guilds out there that accommodate different levels of players, and people should go to those that are equivalent to their ability. They should not expect to get in with the cutting edge players if they aren’t willing to strive for that themselves with everything it entails.

[Echocho]

Tier sets? Better gear than you get from doing dungeons and quests? Worked for the first ten years.

[Accendor]

Raids already have Titles, Mounts, Cosmetics and items you can't get from other content sources. That's your incentive to raid, outside of you know having fun and playing with a group of friends/like-minded individuals.

Why does it need more?

Titles, Mounts and Cosmetics don't matter, this is a game about power progression. The same is true for pet battles e.g.
And if a raid has 1-2 items that are so good you can not get them anywhere else, thats not really enough.

[Risale]

For me it would look something like this:
Daily gear - ilvl 500 no set bonuses
Heroics dungeons - ilvl 510 no set bonuses
LFR ilvl 510 set bonus but no socket
M+ 1-15 ilvl 520 no set bonuses, 25% at gem socket
Normal ilvl 530 set bonus but no socket
M+ 16 and up ilvl 530 no set bonuses, 50% at gem socket
Heroic ilvl 540 set bonus + 25% socket
Mythic ilvl 550 set bonus + 50% socket

Sorta what I was thinking off not 100% fantastic but something along those lines could work.

[dcc626]

Tier sets? Better gear than you get from doing dungeons and quests? Worked for the first ten years.

yeah, there will definately never be a time when players argue about having to raid to get gear when all they want to do dungeons. who could imagine such a thing!