What rewards does raiding need to make it more appealing?

[Softbottom]

So with no class sets or tier bonuses coming in Shadowlands initially what rewards do you think blizzard should add to raiding to make it more appealing for both casual and hardcore players? Or do you think raiding rewards are fine as is?

I think gear needs to be substantially better than all other sources to make it worthwhile. I haven't raided mythic since legion other than a few P/U raids for mythic in BFA and even then I lost interest. The big issue with mythic raiding these days is bosses are over complicated. There is a very fine line between still fun and this encounter sucks. Wiping to over complicated bosses for the sake of being completed is not enjoyable.

[Soon-TM]

Oh and grinding the same few dungeons for 2 years is somehow better huh?

Idk if "better" in an abstract sense, but much less time consuming and almost as rewarding.

[kaminaris]

Only mythic gear is better than mythic+. It is so easy to get heroic level gear from mythic+, which is the difficulty most people raid in anyways.

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Oh and grinding the same few dungeons for 2 years is somehow better huh?

Yeah well, the difference is:

If you are guild top ~1000, not too shabby, not too good. You would still be at 7th boss.

That means you have been playing 6 months JUST to clear the mythic.
Doing the same bosses over and over again (or maybe extending raid lockout), for half a year.
At maximum of 2nd month, you are geared enough to clear the entire raid.
BUT it doesn't go like you predicted, 100 wipes/ 200 wipes, people leaving, getting fed up with this shit.
Now you have new recruits but you basically regressed because new people need to learn the tactics.
Holidays comes in, not enough people to raid. Week wasted.
Of course some random DCs hinders your progress, people complaining about 3fps and dying to random shit.

That's the reality of mediocre mythic raiding guild. It doesn't get better at top 200, you just play more and burn out faster.

Now how it is from M+ perspective:

You log in on some usual hour ~20:00, couple of people on discord, you throw some "Anyone for 15 freehold?"
Couple of dudes comes in from your guild, if you still miss people, you create group on LFG and invite people with sensible rio score.
Run ends up fast AF, of course +2.

Now you have +17 but you got still some shit to do so you are calling it a day and saying you can do that key next day or some other day people will be free.
Sure, people from guild says saturday is fine on 20:00.

Now you will be trying to push +17 KR, well, wipe on first boss, "are we still doing this?", "yeah we should still make it".

If you fail a key, you got a tons of experience, another key. Or maybe you can go on some other dude key if you keep getting KR.

[Myr010]

A number of guilds tend to just hit a brick wall at some point when mythic raiding, this then results in people burning out and guilds falling to pieces, this then is not helped by the fact that some severs do not have a very strong pool of raider to draw upon. The first thing that needs to happen is consolidation of some servers so that each server has a much healthier pool of raiders to recruit from.

Secondly id like to see some form of mechanism in place that allows the guild to adjust the difficult of individual bosses rather than just blanket nerfs to the whole raid. For example allow guild/ community managers have the abillity to assign increased percentage point increases for player healing and damage to individual mythic boss encounters, allow say a 10 to 15% points to be assigned across the whole raid. this would then allow raid leaders to spend them carefully to assist progression and would also result in raid leaders having to decide whether to spend it all on a boss they are progressing on or save some for a later boss if they get to it. You would however need to have something in place to maintain the prestige of clearing the raid without any assists.

[ydraw]

Only mythic gear is better than mythic+. ?

Which makes sense, because only mythic raids are harder than Mythic+

If you had to carry the same awful players in your M+ group that you carry through heroic raids it wouldn't be easy at all.

[kaminaris]

A number of guilds tend to just hit a brick wall at some point when mythic raiding, this then results in people burning out and guilds falling to pieces, this then is not helped by the fact that some severs do not have a very strong pool of raider to draw upon. The first thing that needs to happen is consolidation of some servers so that each server has a much healthier pool of raiders to recruit from.

That won't help at all. I'd say we need to get rid of server barriers. Not just because of mythic raiding but because of everything else is cross-realm plus we have communities. It doesn't make sense to to wait on some arbitrary wall just to raid cross realm - ie waiting for 100 alliance guilds to kill last boss. Plus, remove ID lockout, make it like heroic/normal raids.

Secondly id like to see some form of mechanism in place that allows the guild to adjust the difficult of individual bosses rather than just blanket nerfs to the whole raid. For example allow guild/ community managers have the abillity to assign increased percentage point increases for player healing and damage to individual mythic boss encounters, allow say a 10 to 15% points to be assigned across the whole raid. this would then allow raid leaders to spend them carefully to assist progression and would also result in raid leaders having to decide whether to spend it all on a boss they are progressing on or save some for a later boss if they get to it. You would however need to have something in place to maintain the prestige of clearing the raid without any assists.

Yeah that sounds like good idea, powered up free vantus rune.

Each week you can "nerf" single boss, of course it would be recorded in logs etc so you didn't actually clear it as intended.

[Elias01]

IIRC, they changed their forums since. I'm not entirely sure that post is actually still available. But it was a major part of their reasoning for implementing LFR.

Dude they never said this. Even back in vannila Jeff comepetly dissmised myth about only 1% of players raided. Cost of raids was justified more than enough just for fact that unbeaten content what you have never experienced creates desire to keep playing regardless if you will end up raiding or not.

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People didn't do the older raids in BC because they had to(or where a melee and needed DST lmfao), they did them because they where bad and they where the normal modes of the time. Blizzard had badge gear catchup mechanics twice over the course of BC effectively resetting gear.

You know what really gatekeeped BC raids? The fact you needed to kill KT and Vashj to even enter BT and Hyjal, until ofc sunwell released. Had absolutely nothing to do with difficulty options or all that jazz. You want BC style? Then don't allow someone to enter mythic palace until they killed Jaina on mythic. Vice versa for every other difficulty. Nothing to do with the gear or difficulty options at all.

Yes they did Kara becouse they had to. And 1 item badge vendor cost you lot of dungeon runs and was only for few slots. It definitly didnt reset gear progression at all.

[Kralljin]

A number of guilds tend to just hit a brick wall at some point when mythic raiding, this then results in people burning out and guilds falling to pieces, this then is not helped by the fact that some severs do not have a very strong pool of raider to draw upon.

Eh, i'm not sure how many guilds would actually recruit people just for mythic.

If you're in a guild that takes its time to clear the content and just want to tackle some mythic bosses after heroic is over, you probably do not want to recruit new people just for mythic.

Ironically, moving back to fixed raid sizes would improve the overall raid experience, altough at the price of accessability.

[Ticj]

Which makes sense, because only mythic raids are harder than Mythic+

If you had to carry the same awful players in your M+ group that you carry through heroic raids it wouldn't be easy at all.

Which is exactly my point. The effort you put into heroic raids far more than what you'd put into a a mythic+ to obtain the same ilvl gear. There is a disparity between those two systems and it needs to be fixed.

[Dracullus]

Out of 4 major groups (PVP, Raids, Mythic+, Ultra casual) only raiders always have problem whenever some piece of gear is slightly better than raid piece. So what if devs just put benthic style bonuses (but only for current raid) for raid drops? Raiders could just progress raids, min-maxers would farm bis gear from various sources, ultra casual would have their easy gearing untouched.

[kaminaris]

Which is exactly my point. The effort you put into heroic raids far more than what you'd put into a a mythic+ to obtain the same ilvl gear. There is a disparity between those two systems and it needs to be fixed.

No, not really. Considering the amount of RNG and probability. You need to spend far more time in M+ than in M raids to get comparable gear.

And by far more time i mean 'UNGODLY AMOUNT OF FARMING'.

Why? Because I am proficient at math and you are not.

So until you actually can take into consideration all variables in this equation, stop saying nonsense.

[Linri]

Tier Sets
No Titan Forging
More Weapons
Armor that doesn't have appearance of set items

[DietzThought]

How about every time you kill a boss, you get a personally rendered cutscene where your character has sex with her/him/it/them.

[Benitora]

A unique set for that difficulty that is not transmogable until the next tier of raids is unlocked, which should also be the most powerful PVE centric gear in the game.
Bring back PVP gear, and you will fix most of the problems the game has today in terms of it's reward system.

[Khallid]

How about every time you kill a boss, you get a personally rendered cutscene where your character has sex with her/him/it/them.

You don't get that service already? Must be a pro thing.

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So with no class sets or tier bonuses coming in Shadowlands initially what rewards do you think blizzard should add to raiding to make it more appealing for both casual and hardcore players? Or do you think raiding rewards are fine as is?

Mythic bosses should drop WoW Tokens :P

[huth]

Dude they never said this. Even back in vannila Jeff comepetly dissmised myth about only 1% of players raided. Cost of raids was justified more than enough just for fact that unbeaten content what you have never experienced creates desire to keep playing regardless if you will end up raiding or not.

I'm not sure what the specific numbers were, but they did in fact say that organised raiding was(and still is) only done by a very small fraction of the player base.

What they did not say is that this is just a myth.

Whether unbeatable content creates desire to keep playing is mere speculation by you. But their attempts in Cataclysm to get people to deal with harder dungeons suggests the opposite.

[Lothaeryn]

Titanforging needs to go. Random sockets need to go, just put sockets on rings/necks and be done with it.

Better yet, allow JEWELCRAFTERS to fucking add sockets to gear so their profession isn't entirely dead without RNG. Most embarrassing fuckup of professions and they still haven't addressed it since legion.

[Gorsameth]

I'm not sure what the specific numbers were, but they did in fact say that organised raiding was(and still is) only done by a very small fraction of the player base.

What they did not say is that this is just a myth.

Whether unbeatable content creates desire to keep playing is mere speculation by you. But their attempts in Cataclysm to get people to deal with harder dungeons suggests the opposite.

I think Ghostcrawler talked about it a bunch after he left for Riot.
That when confronted with a wall they can't get past the majority of people don't try to get better, they just quit.

[Tech614]

Yes they did Kara becouse they had to.

At the very start of BC? Sure.

If you where doing kara halfway through BC you where doing it because you where too bad to gear up otherwise. You didn't even need much gear at all to down the early loot pinatas in SSC and TK.

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Better yet, allow JEWELCRAFTERS to fucking add sockets to gear so their profession isn't entirely dead without RNG. Most embarrassing fuckup of professions and they still haven't addressed it since legion.

I fail to see how their profesion is anymore "dead" then LW, Tailoring and BS. They can still make jewelry- you know what the profession was originally intended to do, just like those other professions can make gear. Even then those specs had things like leg armor enchants completely removed from the game, at least you still have gems in some form.

If anything you sound mad that JC is not a free I win button for gold like the old days.

[Gorsameth]

At the very start of BC? Sure.

If you where doing kara halfway through BC you where doing it because you where too bad to gear up otherwise. You didn't even need much gear at all to down the early loot pinatas in SSC and TK.

I seem to remember Kara was a good source of Badges (justice?) for quite a while into the expansion.
Its been a couple of years tho so maybe I just misremember.