Blizzard designed themselves into a corner with M+

[Redroniksre]

I mentioned something like this a while back. The idea being, each end game area (M+, Raid, PvP, World Content) has their own set bonuses. Make them something you apply to your gear, like the Eyes from mop or meta gems, or a system like essences, but not something that is the actual gear itself. Make all these bonuses tailored for the desired of the appropriate content. PvP bonuses would be more focused on defensive aspects, World content could be very basic stat increases/procs, M+ could be more focused on AoE and self/group sufficiency, with Raiding being more focused on ST/throughput. They could all be active in any activity, but they would just be more useful in their respective one. Of course there would be edge cases, but generally speaking, I think it would freshen things up.

Or just make the set bonuses only active in their respective content, therefor the set gear for that specific bit of content should always be the best option beating out ones from the other bits.

Some members of the playerbase will play an unhealthy amount if you give them the option too, and will complain about it. Really the only thing Blizzard can do is force them to stop, or otherwise segregate the different gear paths to their path alone. Of course this gets rid of any ego those players might get from going around one shotting world stuff, but oh well tough luck.

[Jester Joe]

Requiring at least nine people is a whole different story than getting dragged through M+.

You're working under the assumption you'll have 4 people willing to do the M+, so why are you suddenly acting as if no guild would ever bring an alt to raid nights when people will be there to raid?

Considering you are talking about getting dragged through, i did that with a friend actually.

I got Mythic Ilvl, he had shit ilvl, still got invited into every m+10 Pug.
So he went from fresh to ~420 within days, that's not possible with just raiding, the lockout naturally prevents you from doing that.

It's not "impossible" to do that with just raiding. Run normal and heroic, and have people pass gear to you.

And that isn't straight up pugging, that's "here's an overgeared friend giving help still". No one would have taken your friend into the group otherwise.

It sure is.
After all, there is a reason why Raids have lockouts, so that people aren't burning out too fast on new content and have a steady motivation to come back next week.
As said earlier, if you have no intention of mythic raiding, you essentially are able to hit max Ilvl within days after season release.

Because Blizzard has an obvious interest in you still having a reason to log in, they came up with system such as titanforging so upgrades are still "possible", the weekly chest comes out of the thought process.

Lock outs aren't to stop people from burning out? You can run a raid as many times as you want in a week now, just no chance at the gear sure.
Yes it stops you from chaining that single boss though for a piece of gear that week. But again, M+ is a different system.

Depending on your class, decent M+ trinkets are within less than 1k dps in comparison to raid trinkets, they're not a huge upgrade.
The only thing that keeps raid trinkets afloat is the fact that Mythic reliably awards high Ilvl, whereas M+ relies on Titanforging.

Again, trinkets are only a single example.
The second part is flat out false when even normal mode trinkets outperform a large amount of mythic+ trinkets which would be 430 baseline if doing +10s

[Gaidax]

I totally don't want a "solution" that fixes the (imaginary) "problem" that requires me to juggle sets like crazy just because bonuses end up turning off and on every time I do something else.

Believe it or not, current M+ and raiding combination is fine, really. The only valid complaint would be M+ balance, but that's about it really.

[Shelly]

Well let's see, first off the reason the MDI eclipses the arena tournament is a couple reasons:

1) Arena while a powerful draw is still niche in the game. PvE servers out-populated PvP servers and Warmode requires constant attempts and population balancing.

2) It's visually accessible in ways that the arena is not. You can literally see players doing things that you recognize far more often than in the arena where you can get a little lost if you don't PvP.

Next, the M+ meta is far different than the raid meta. As such there need not be perfect balance between the two, especially as an M10 isn't that hard to do and most players can get a 10 done without too much difficulty.

There needs not be class or spec parity in M+. It's the one area of the game where you'll see faster shifting meta and the rewards from it will very seldom remain BiS rewards through an entire expansion as further patches bring in not only other dungeons but other raid tiers.

You're making a worried nothingburger. M+ is fine, they'll continue to tweak it for each expansion and even for each patch but more than anything it will act as an incubator for features to come in raids.

[Wilfire]

Just realized that I didn't mention this in my initial post, but the current iteration of M+ is way more toxic than even the worst iteration of arena.

In arena at least you had to communicate. In M+ everything is predetermined to the point people just join groups and never talk to each other. And then when the inevitable fuck up happens because people didn't talk, the raging starts. "Great" game design indeed when you can clear "group" content communication-free.

And another similarity: sitting for hours in a queue getting declined because your class is not meta. Reminds you of anything?

[Imurbandaid]

I love m+, ive played since vanilla and wouldn't be playing anymore without it. Only requires 5 people or a pug, great gear, flexible schedule, great fun. Can't do the 3 hours 3 nights a week raiding anymore, or deal with finding 20 people for mythic raiding(let alone the fact that only a handful of old friends still play and we all m+ together). I am not the meta m+ classes and am still 443 with a ton of success in m+. I also have ahead of the curve Azshara. I don't see this problem and I really don't understand MMOCHAMPS recent attack on m+.

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Just realized that I didn't mention this in my initial post, but the current iteration of M+ is way more toxic than even the worst iteration of arena.

In arena at least you had to communicate. In M+ everything is predetermined to the point people just join groups and never talk to each other. And then when the inevitable fuck up happens because people didn't talk, the raging starts. "Great" game design indeed when you can clear "group" content communication-free.

And another similarity: sitting for hours in a queue getting declined because your class is not meta. Reminds you of anything?

Absolutely not lmao. Im not meta and get in groups just fine. It's also a lot easier to find 5 friends and communicate than it is to find 20 to raid so pugging is EASIER. Raids also have elitist pug requirements for AOTC and specific classes etc. Pug raids also don't use voicecoms often and have spend a lot of time with leavers and filling after wipes. Literally every negative you are making up for m+ can be applied to raids as well??????????

[Gaidax]

Just realized that I didn't mention this in my initial post, but the current iteration of M+ is way more toxic than even the worst iteration of arena.

In arena at least you had to communicate. In M+ everything is predetermined to the point people just join groups and never talk to each other.

Get some friends then...

Pug life was always the same 15 years and counting, people looking for meta picks first when dealing with randoms is not some sort of M+ thing, it is simply a PuG thing for any activity in any period of time in WoW history.

Not terribly sure why you want to pretend it's some sort of exclusive M+ thing.

Other than that for something casual like weekly M+10 things are usually chill anyway, I'm a lock and it's definitely not M+ meta and I can still land into any M+ PuG for weekly no problem, when I even do this outside of guild.

[themaster24]

Or just make the set bonuses only active in their respective content, therefor the set gear for that specific bit of content should always be the best option beating out ones from the other bits.

Some members of the playerbase will play an unhealthy amount if you give them the option too, and will complain about it. Really the only thing Blizzard can do is force them to stop, or otherwise segregate the different gear paths to their path alone. Of course this gets rid of any ego those players might get from going around one shotting world stuff, but oh well tough luck.

The biggest thing I have against locking sets out to their content is that it then requires you to carry around an extra 8/12 pieces of gear at all times just for set bonuses for 1 spec. Play Dps & Tank/Heals? Now that's doubled. I would love to see sets return, I just honestly think it would be better as a system that is, in a way, detached from gear. Pretty much something like an evolution of essences.

One idea would be to say, have a grid of six slots. You get tokens that are tied to a respective activity, and each activity had a variety of potential sets. An individual token gives some small amount of stats, but then achieved a 2/4/6 set of them unlocks a new bonus. Maybe tokens start off as a consumable type thing, but after you collect 5 of a specific one or you perform a specific task, it becomes permanently available to swap between. Just a quick idea off the top of my head.

[Gaidax]

Literally every negative you are making up for m+ can be applied to raids as well??????????

Ditto, why I'd say literally every negative he listed can be applied to just about any sort of PuG interaction in WoW, whether it's Raids, M+ or PvP. Not sure why he tries to make it some sort of M+ thing.

[Wilfire]

Get some friends then...

Pug life was always the same 15 years and counting, people looking for meta picks first when dealing with randoms is not some sort of M+ thing, it is simply a PuG thing for any activity in any period of time in WoW history.

Not terribly sure why you want to pretend it's some sort of exclusive M+ thing.

Raids are harder to organize so people pick on a "good enough" basis. That means you don't need to play a meta class to get in. There are all kinds of specs present in every pug raid.

M+ is dead easy to organize so people pick on a "meta" basis. Moreover you are restricted to just 5 people and you need to squeeze in the maximum number of useful utility abilities, whereas in raids you have way more people to cover them. You absolutely need someone with a combat rez. You need a rogue for shroud. You need a monk / rogue / DH for interrupts. You need a ranged to handle certain mechanics. If you aren't picking meta, you are going to get rekt.

[Thmsbkr3]

You actually nailed the solution to the problem on the head when you mentioned template characters.

You should have your main characters that you can do all the m+, raiding, and pvp you want. Get them all the goodies... They will be able to do anything except they wont be rated in PvP or PvE.

For competitive m+ and pvp you have template characters like you get on the ptr. You can adjust anything you want on them but you will always be equal in power to everyone else competing in rated competitive stuff.

Creates a level field and makes balancing easier and rewards worth it.

[Kralljin]

You're working under the assumption you'll have 4 people willing to do the M+

You don't even need four people.
A single one that acts are bargaining chip into pugs is all you need.

And that isn't straight up pugging, that's "here's an overgeared friend giving help still". No one would have taken your friend into the group otherwise.

You're the one who brought "getting carried" into this discussion, not me.
Which by the way still doesn't change the fact that it's much easier to carry someone through M+ than Raids, because they're easier.

And not being able to jump straight into M+10 is an entirely redudant argument, because you can't do that in raids as well.
And it's far easier in M+, because if have a M+10 key, you basically hold the power to make a group.

You can run a raid as many times as you want in a week now, just no chance at the gear sure.

Are you just replying for the sake of it here?
Or do you seriously try to sell "you can do raids as often as you like as well" as argument?

You realize even 415 trinkets outperform some of the 440 trinkets you can get from the M+ cache?

https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#shaman_elemental

Leviathan's Lure (415):
2,4k Dps

Rotcrusted Voodoo Doll (445):
2.9k Dps

Lady Waycrest's Music Box (445).
2.9k Dps

They are only powerful if you compare them right next to each other, but on the grand scale they're not that impactful.
A lot of raid trinkets simply get saved on the basis of having reliably high ilvl from Mythic.

It's same thing when people lose their minds over sockets in Rings, those sockets aren't more powerful, they're still just sockets, whether i have them in my ring or gloves is irrelevant.

[dacoolist]

I do think it's always been a balance with Blizz on how hard and how good you have to be to get certain levels of gear.

Hear me out:

So Right now right: You can run an M+ 10 which takes ON AVG idk roughly like 30 minutes right, and at the start of next week you are GUARANTEED a 440-455 item of SUPER DUPER randomness besides not being on the RAID loot table (these are items only from the M+ loot table aka no azerite pieces etc)

So to get more pieces of gear you can cross realm pug the first three boss's of mythic (WHICH btw, are NOT that hard either, most groups take about 2 hours and you get shots at REALLLLY good items that START at iLVL 445-455 and you can roll with those 2 extra marks per week as well)


NOW the other side of it right: PVP.. To even GET the same level of gear you I am PRETTY SURE have to be ranked 2100 or higher.. The skill level of that high of gear is PRETTY DAMN HIGH, I mean I think i'm damn decent at pvp and my dumbass only ever usually gets to 1800 per season.. so I mean we are talking like BARELY getting 430 ilvl..


So M+ and Mythic boss's compared to 2100-2400 in pvp to get the same items alone isn't even close in comparison to skill level IMO..



NOW: Back in the freaken DAY, you could just get DESTROYED per week in pvp and still buy some of the best items in the game because pvp would allow you to buy items off the vendor that were kind of in between top end heroic and low end mythic level.. only a few top top end raiders had higher ilvl but most of the time wouldn't stand a chance against pvpers anyway because pvp used to have more res and shit like that so...


Again ilvl will never be balanced

[Halyon]

This is very accurate. You can't have 3 different esports within 1 game. (Arena, mythic raid, mythic+) in an MMO.

...but raiding isn't an esport... Nor is mythic+. Sure, people make a sport out of it because they want to be the very best, but it ain't an esport like pvp or some moba.

[Shelly]

Raids are harder to organize so people pick on a "good enough" basis. That means you don't need to play a meta class to get in. There are all kinds of specs present in every pug raid.

M+ is dead easy to organize so people pick on a "meta" basis. Moreover you are restricted to just 5 people and you need to squeeze in the maximum number of useful utility abilities, whereas in raids you have way more people to cover them. You absolutely need someone with a combat rez. You need a rogue for shroud. You need a monk / rogue / DH for interrupts. You need a ranged to handle certain mechanics. If you aren't picking meta, you are going to get rekt.

Or, you find a group that you enjoy playing with and just go for it since the vast majority of players aren't "meta" and instead will just deal with overcapping trash, not having a brez, not having perfect play with snap points or any of the other M+ shenanigans that happen with the MDI.

Especially given how 8.3 is adding an affix that'll let people entirely skip shrouds, cut back on Shadowmeld usage, and actually sounds a lot more Unholy DK friendly with building up large trash and mini-boss AoE packs for many affixes.

Either way lots of off-meta groupings out there completing a +15, though most folks just do a +10 a week and then call it good unless they are one of those groups that just likes to do M+ as much as possible.

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...but raiding isn't an esport... Nor is mythic+. Sure, people make a sport out of it because they want to be the very best, but it ain't an esport like pvp or some moba.

Not all sports require straight PvP competitiveness.

They could easily make raiding a competitive sport the same way they have the MDI, several groups, add a gear vendor, add a timer, cast it.

MDI has been the biggest eSport success for WoW and for good reason; audience, accessibility and it's something even people that don't play the game can follow. I've literally put it on to watch on the couch and my wife was able to follow along with it and it'll just get more accessible as the casting and production teams get better.

[Trend]

Just realized that I didn't mention this in my initial post, but the current iteration of M+ is way more toxic than even the worst iteration of arena.

In arena at least you had to communicate. In M+ everything is predetermined to the point people just join groups and never talk to each other. And then when the inevitable fuck up happens because people didn't talk, the raging starts. "Great" game design indeed when you can clear "group" content communication-free.

And another similarity: sitting for hours in a queue getting declined because your class is not meta. Reminds you of anything?

If you PUG PvP, people will get mad and eject after a single loss.
If you PUG raids, people will get mad and eject after a wipe or two.
If you PUG dungeons, people will get mad and eject after things go poorly.

Clearly the above points to a fundamental problem with mythic+ right? /s

You're straining so hard to try to connect on some point that there are these huge problems with mythic+ that don't exist but you're just whiffing. The one thing that you said that is true is that raids and mythic+ cannot both be balanced (but here is a hint: that was already obvious to everyone day one.)

Try to remember that you're talking to people who play the game. The whole "mythic+ is so much more toxic than anything else" schtick isn't going to convince the people who actually do mythic+.

P.S. If you're getting declined for hours, that means you are only applying to groups you have no business being a part of. Being meta gets you invited faster, in general, but it is not required.

[Malator]

Have an option to switch your character between mythic raiding, mythic+, and pvp like you would specs. Your characters “balance” would change to suit blizzards balance design for what they intended for each. Gear set bonuses would change accordingly as well.

[Drusin]

The only thing is I don't really want to have to carry around all these different sets/items in my bags again especially as a paladin

I know that hybrid pain lol.

M+: Resto + Balance
Raid: Resto + Balance
PVP: Resto + Feral + Balance

7 sets of gear, possibly 6 trinkets, unless the gear can swap between specs so then it'll just be 3 sets of gear possibly 6 trinkets.

[Asrialol]

And that's why competitive players have to do both M+ and raids to stay relevant. It's not sustainable once people start to burn out (hint, they already have).

What makes you think you can speak on my behalf?

[Mirishka]

Blizzard wanted M+ and raiding to be alternative paths of progression. Unfortunately they ran into the same problem as they did when they introduced arenas in TBC.

They can't balance the classes around raiding because it will affect M+. They can't balance the classes around M+ because it will affect raiding.
There are sizeable raiding-exclusive and m+-exclusive populations. They can't prioritize one over the other because it will cause subscriber losses in the long run.

*snip*

In a game full of issues, this is a non-issue.

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What makes you think you can speak on my behalf?

There's a type of poster here that thinks their opinion = the majority of players' opinions, that's what.