RE: Lightforged & Void Elf DKs

[Shelly]

How so? Why would a Lightforged Draenei resort to becoming a Death Knight, instead of becoming a Paladin? He can't protect Azeroth as a Paladin?

I mean by that logic, why not have Draenei and Night Elf Warlocks?

Because the LK can't raise paladins from the dead as more paladins.

Allied race DKs actually bring up something interesting though. We know the machinery of death is broken and that the Jailer is sucking souls directly into the Maw, acting as an intercessor between souls and the Arbiter. So it sounds like Bolvar has figured out that this is happening and is able to either pull souls directly from the Maw or to act as an intercessor himself to pull souls to him before they enter the Shadowlands.

Either way I'd consider it supporting my theory that the LK - regardless of whom it is - is the "usurper" that Sylvannas talks about when she enters Icecrown. That the LK is usurping the powers of the Jailer.

[DarkTZeratul]

Either way I'd consider it supporting my theory that the LK - regardless of whom it is - is the "usurper" that Sylvannas talks about when she enters Icecrown.

I thought that was obvious.

[Shelly]

I thought that was obvious.

I agree, but I have talked a few times that the usurped Sylvannas references to isn't Arthas being usurped by Bolvar but the Jailer being usurped by the LK and I get a lot of pushback.

That's MMO champ for you though.

[Kyphael]

OR would VE DKs have to much 'dark on dark' where they cancel each other out and circle around back to happy sunshine rainbow knights?


I find LF DKs a stupid idea but if their tattoos turn from gold to death knight blue glow I might have to make one.

That does sound pretty sweet.

[Pony Soldier]

To me it's just kind of weird for these races. I mean I can't say it's impossible or that it doesn't make sense for these races to be death knights it's just...it feels convoluted I guess you could say. You have void elves who are supposed to be blood elves that harnessed the power of the void so the best class for them lorewise would be warlocks, warriors, rogues, and hunters. When you start talking about death knights it's like well do they still have their void powers? If so is it now combined with the powers of death? This, to me, just seems like it should be a concept for an end game boss or something not something millions of people can run around as.

Lightforged are less so because they're just holier versions of Draenei with yellow eyes and paler skin. So them dying and being born again as a DK doesn't seem so outlandish but it still feels kind of weird because it's obvious the Lightforged Draenei were made to be paladins or priests or at least something using holy powers in some way. I guess you could say they abandoned the light since the light abandoned them but that just seems like a lazy excuse to me. For a race that's supposed to be pure holy and good, using death powers would seem kind of off.

Regardless I'm fine with it. It's better than seeing a panda, goblin, or gnome DK. Those are probably the stupidest looking DKs. Vulpera and Mechagnomes would be other races that would make for stupid looking DKs.

[Linuriel]

Because the LK can't raise paladins from the dead as more paladins.

What an absolutely idiotic answer.

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Because you kinda need to be alive to do that.

If Bolvar goes out and raises fallen soldiers and controls their minds, and then they free themselves from him, it would make sense. But I doubt they would do it. It would require the same story we had with the Lich King in the DK starting zone, and Bolvar isn't that kind of character.

And we weren't talking about that. We were talking about them freely choosing to become Death Knights, which makes no sense.

[Delmorii]

To me it's just kind of weird for these races. I mean I can't say it's impossible or that it doesn't make sense for these races to be death knights it's just...it feels convoluted I guess you could say. You have void elves who are supposed to be blood elves that harnessed the power of the void so the best class for them lorewise would be warlocks, warriors, rogues, and hunters. When you start talking about death knights it's like well do they still have their void powers? If so is it now combined with the powers of death? This, to me, just seems like it should be a concept for an end game boss or something not something millions of people can run around as.

Lightforged are less so because they're just holier versions of Draenei with yellow eyes and paler skin. So them dying and being born again as a DK doesn't seem so outlandish but it still feels kind of weird because it's obvious the Lightforged Draenei were made to be paladins or priests or at least something using holy powers in some way. I guess you could say they abandoned the light since the light abandoned them but that just seems like a lazy excuse to me. For a race that's supposed to be pure holy and good, using death powers would seem kind of off.

Regardless I'm fine with it. It's better than seeing a panda, goblin, or gnome DK. Those are probably the stupidest looking DKs. Vulpera and Mechagnomes would be other races that would make for stupid looking DKs.

I'd normally agree with your first bit, but they also gave millions of players the same 36 artifact weapons-- notably Ashbringer, Doomhammer, the Runeblades-- some really important lore weapons. Lore-wise I do agree that there wouldn't be many LF DKs, but then again, if my options are "be tormented for eternity in mega-hell" versus "help protect the world as as undead knight, but it's gunna be painful at times", I'll take the latter.

As for VE DK, the whole concept intrigues me but I'd like to know how their innate Void and newly acquired Death abilities play along.

And, well, everyone can die, so logically everyone can become a DK.

EDIT:

If Bolvar goes out and raises fallen soldiers and controls their minds, and then they free themselves from him, it would make sense. But I doubt they would do it. It would require the same story we had with the Lich King in the DK starting zone, and Bolvar isn't that kind of character.

And we weren't talking about that. We were talking about them freely choosing to become Death Knights, which makes no sense.

I don't think many, if any, DKs chose to become them; just the one dude in Black Temple, I thought? Either way, any and all LF who've died have gone to the Maw. I feel like that'd be reason enough for them to agree to become DKs upon being raised again.

Bolvar I can see giving a choice to reutnr to true death, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[A Chozo]

I suppose, the question then is if their living kin would accept them. =P

Probably not, but the Death Knights answer to Mograine, Fordragon and if they wanna wear blue, to King Wrynn.

[Jester Joe]

Dude, how sick would that be, visually? Of course with the Void and Death bonking heads, I doubt a being could wield both and still be stable in any capacity of the word.

Well, there is the case of Umbric infusing the dinosaur with void energies to bring it back to life, in the Zuldazar incursion finale for the Alliance side.

Specifically mentions that it has to be undone before it gets too out of control though.

[Shelly]

What an absolutely idiotic answer.

If Bolvar goes out and raises fallen soldiers and controls their minds, and then they free themselves from him, it would make sense. But I doubt they would do it. It would require the same story we had with the Lich King in the DK starting zone, and Bolvar isn't that kind of character.

And we weren't talking about that. We were talking about them freely choosing to become Death Knights, which makes no sense.

Well I know who didn't play a DK in Legion then, or at least didn't complete their order hall campaign.

Not only are player and NPC DKs choosing to follow Bolvar, though under some duress as he tells us we can either work for him or he can just send the Scourge to try and take care of the Legion, but we resurrect a new group of Four Horsemen that all choose to enter service. Although it does seem that becoming undead definitely messes with your mind a little - like Nazgrim suddenly being all about choking large numbers of dudes.

Also how is my answer stupid?

The LK is raising Death Knights, if he was just resurrecting people back to what they were - like say the Forsaken that are reclaiming their minds and their old lives and professions (or starting a new one post-life) then sure you could say they are still paladins.

Rather we have him making Death Knights. Powerful servants that carry a bit of the power of the LK himself. They aren't Paladins, Mages, Warlocks, Hunters, Warriors, Rogues, Priests, Monks or whatever anymore. Now they are Death Knights and considering how the LK doesn't have powers based in the light and the life no matter how much they believe in him a DK will never be a paladin.

[Pony Soldier]

I'd normally agree with your first bit, but they also gave millions of players the same 36 artifact weapons-- notably Ashbringer, Doomhammer, the Runeblades-- some really important lore weapons. Lore-wise I do agree that there wouldn't be many LF DKs, but then again, if my options are "be tormented for eternity in mega-hell" versus "help protect the world as as undead knight, but it's gunna be painful at times", I'll take the latter.

As for VE DK, the whole concept intrigues me but I'd like to know how their innate Void and newly acquired Death abilities play along.

And, well, everyone can die, so logically everyone can become a DK.

Yeah, having millions of players running around with Doomhammer and Ashbringer was really messed up in my eyes as they are two of the most iconic weapons in Warcraft lore and they were reduced to a free giveaway toy for everyone and are now destroyed and irrelevant. So yeah you do have a point there. I also thought the same thing that everyone is organic and can die so logically everyone should be able to be a DK.

It's just hard to make sense of things when Blizzard themselves keep fucking up the lore. It's like why even bother trying to explain things anymore when it seems like Blizzard just wants you to forget things happened and the only things that matter is what is happening in the story right now. It's like forget about what happened back then that doesn't matter anymore...LOOK new mounts and pets in the store!

[Jaggler]

Why do people assume that thos races just choose to be a DK? It's not like you have a lot of choice in whether to become a DK or not.

[Linuriel]

Not only are player and NPC DKs choosing to follow Bolvar, though under some duress as he tells us we can either work for him or he can just send the Scourge to try and take care of the Legion, but we resurrect a new group of Four Horsemen that all choose to enter service. Although it does seem that becoming undead definitely messes with your mind a little - like Nazgrim suddenly being all about choking large numbers of dudes.

And? What relevance does that have to what I said? The four horsemen weren't lightforged Draenei. Nazgrim was a warrior, so was Thoras if I'm not mistaken. Whitemane was a priestess, bút she said she wanted to make up for her mistakes in life. Darion was already a Death Knight.

And you know why it was Darion who was chosen as the leader of the four horsemen. Because the light would not even permit Tirion to be raised from the dead. No Lightforged Draenei would choose to become a DK.

Well I know who didn't play a DK in Legion then

So think before you write dumb things.

[Delmorii]

Well, there is the case of Umbric infusing the dinosaur with void energies to bring it back to life, in the Zuldazar incursion finale for the Alliance side.

Specifically mentions that it has to be undone before it gets too out of control though.

Oh! Very true. That answers that for me, then.

Yeah, having millions of players running around with Doomhammer and Ashbringer was really messed up in my eyes as they are two of the most iconic weapons in Warcraft lore and they were reduced to a free giveaway toy for everyone and are now destroyed and irrelevant. So yeah you do have a point there. I also thought the same thing that everyone is organic and can die so logically everyone should be able to be a DK.

It's just hard to make sense of things when Blizzard themselves keep fucking up the lore. It's like why even bother trying to explain things anymore when it seems like Blizzard just wants you to forget things happened and the only things that matter is what is happening in the story right now. It's like forget about what happened back then that doesn't matter anymore...LOOK new mounts and pets in the store!

Lol I remember seeing the features trailer for Legion and when I saw the Ashbringer usable by player paladins, I thought I'd never touch the game again. I ended up loving Legion though, and I'm still playing, so that'll teach me. To your latter bit, yeah, that's the frustrating part; I've been leveling alts lately, and going through Tirisfal and Silverpine is probably the biggest example of them retroactively applying lore getting all janky. There, Sylvanas gave newly risen Forsaken the choice to return to True Death, then later on made it clear she was bolstering the Forsaken ranks to be able to hold onto Lordaeron.

Don't remember what shenanigans she was up to in MoP or WoD, and then she was Warchief in Legion, where things got a little... weird, I guess, since we didn't know her motives. At the time I just assumed she wanted to rule the Val'kyr in order to keep raising (free-willed) undead and secure her people's future. Then in BFA it was suddenly genocide and raising mindless undead (I assume the idea was to send the souls to the Maw and keep the body for her personal use).

I guess TL;DR is that, if she really was working with the Jailer as far back as Cata, then she was being extremely subtle and convincing then did a 180 in BFA. Worth noting too that she was developing her own brand of Plague before Cata, so maybe some shenanigans were already afoot. Idk, I didn't play Forsaken/Horde like at all in Vanilla and up to Legion.

[huth]

And we weren't talking about that. We were talking about them freely choosing to become Death Knights, which makes no sense.

And that's where you go wrong. We're not talking about that. We're talking about them dying and Bolvar raising them into undeath because he really needs troops against Sylvanas.

[Shelly]

And? What relevance does that have to what I said? The four horsemen weren't lightforged Draenei. Nazgrim was a warrior, so was Thoras if I'm not mistaken. Whitemane was a priestess, bút she said she wanted to make up for her mistakes in life. Darion was already a Death Knight.

And you know why it was Darion who was chosen as the leader of the four horsemen. Because the light would not even permit Tirion to be raised from the dead. No Lightforged Draenei would choose to become a DK.


So think before you write dumb things.

Wow. Someone wore their grumpy pants today.

Yeah, the light didn't let Tirion go, shame they didn't do the same for Sir Zellek eh?

You might not like it but Blizz is letting slayed Lightforged from the 4th war choose to be resurrected as DKs. Not really sorry it's hurt your feelings since you come off as extremely upset over the trivialities of a video game.

Really hope they have Blademaster Telaamon as one of the first NPCs too. I like him.

[Linuriel]

Wow. Someone wore their grumpy pants today.

Yeah, the light didn't let Tirion go, shame they didn't do the same for Sir Zellek eh?

You might not like it but Blizz is letting slayed Lightforged from the 4th war choose to be resurrected as DKs. Not really sorry it's hurt your feelings since you come off as extremely upset over the trivialities of a video game.

Really hope they have Blademaster Telaamon as one of the first NPCs too. I like him.

Sir Zeliek is a great example of a Paladin, who was forced to be a Death Knight, and even in undeath rebelled against the Lich King's control. I don't think this is helping your argument in whichever way you think it does.

So what if Blizzard lets players be Lightforged DKs? That still doesn't mean it makes sense. Blizzard's writing has been nonsense for over a decade.

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And that's where you go wrong. We're not talking about that. We're talking about them dying and Bolvar raising them into undeath because he really needs troops against Sylvanas.

No, you need to learn to read.

[Verdugo]

Lightforged DK is a perfect litmus test, anyone who defends that garbage just obviously doesnt give a fuck and wants it for the "kewl" factor.

[Delmorii]

Sir Zeliek is a great example of a Paladin, who was forced to be a Death Knight, and even in undeath rebelled against the Lich King's control. I don't think this is helping your argument in whichever way you think it does.

So what if Blizzard lets players be Lightforged DKs? That still doesn't mean it makes sense. Blizzard's writing has been nonsense for over a decade.

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No, you need to learn to read.

You're not understanding what we're saying. In Zeliek's case, yes he was forced and yes he rebelled, but Bolvar would likely give the choice for LF to return to death, but as it stands all LF who've died so far have gone straight into the Maw. So LF raised into undeath have two options: return to the Maw or become a DK.

It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. They have no other options.

[Shelly]

Sir Zeliek is a great example of a Paladin, who was forced to be a Death Knight, and even in undeath rebelled against the Lich King's control. I don't think this is helping your argument in whichever way you think it does.

So what if Blizzard lets players be Lightforged DKs? That still doesn't mean it makes sense. Blizzard's writing has been nonsense for over a decade.

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No, you need to learn to read.

My argument is that the Lightforged remain Lightforged even in death and despite being dead haven't been abandoned by the Light and that the Light can deal with someone being undead. We have a lot of examples of it, there are definite differences between a Paladin and a DK as well.

There is literally no lore reason as to why Lightforged cannot be DKs.

We know that many lost their lives in the 4th war - also known as the war we just ended with the defeat of Azshara and the Mak'Gora where Sylvanas fled.

We know that all it takes to raise a DK is a corpse and that Bolvar is able to create new DKs.

We know that Bolvar is able to create DKs even if they were strong in the light - Sally Whitemane.

So given all that there's not a single reason that we can't have Lightforged DKs.

You just don't like it, and that's fine, but please stop calling other people stupid for pointing out that you're incorrect. It's sad.