AV = Ally Win!

[VooDsXo]

I'd venture to guess that most people aren't working towards GM/HWL, only a very tiny fraction of the population can put in that time and most people know it. A lot of people are just playing the BGs and they want to win, especially given how shitty open world has seemingly been for Alliance lately (I don't play on a PVP server, I just read forums). Alliance likely get a lot more satisfaction than Horde right now, because they win, and any Horde who isn't grinding ranks has to suffer a loss just because it's better to lose because lolhonor.

No, I can pretty much tell you the horde doesn't care about W's in AV, and never really has. The fact people keep saying people aren't competing against alliance, but with your own faction means you don't get the concept of this at all, Idc if you're High Warlord, I want to be high warlord rofl and no one is going to do the slowest grind possible ... that's silly...like the alliance.

[facefist]

As a few have stated honor really doesn't matter cross faction. You are bracketed only within your faction on your server so if allies are only getting 2k and horde is getting 4k it isn't really a net win for the horde because all it really does is inflate honor it roughly equally across the horde bracket.

The only net win for the alliance is rep gain on the fast wins. But really only as long as they are really fast. It starts to even out the longer the game drags out and the horde gets to do more things to equal it out or, if they manage to win, pull ahead.

You just gave answer to this question yourself. Because it's essentially horde vs horde, they don't care as long as they gain more honor than other horde players. If doing objectives and then losing fast is best honor, then there is no reason for rankers to try and win.

I'm surprised so many people are missing the point which is that they aren't trying to get net gain over the opposite faction, but gain over people in their own faction.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

You just gave answer to this question yourself. Because it's essentially horde vs horde, they don't care as long as they gain more honor than other horde players. If doing objectives and then losing fast is best honor, then there is no reason for rankers to try and win.

I'm surprised so many people are missing the point which is that they aren't trying to get net gain over the opposite faction, but gain over people in their own faction.

I asked no question.

[Echocho]

How long will it take people to figure out why ally win just about every game?

Because horde can't win without a gank squad outnumbering you ten to one?

[lollerlaban]

But i thought AV's lasted days on end in classic?

[Mardux]

horde get to slaughter alliance & camp them in azeroth. I think it's only fair that alliance wins once it's 40 man vs 40 zugs.

You've got to appreciate the people who can convince themselves that both factions don't do the same shit.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

How long will it take people to figure out why ally win just about every game?

How long will it take people to figure out that ally rushes faster but horde ends up with same or more honor almost every game?

[hulkgor]

People still don't realize that horde making more honor is irrelevant, since we compete within our factions for the honor system.

[Kagthul]

People still don't realize that horde making more honor is irrelevant, since we compete within our factions for the honor system.

Except it does, because not every Horde player is doing this... and ranks have Honor thresholds (well, there are thresholds to rank for a given week depending on your previous rank, RP degredation, etc).

Even if you place standing 1, if you didn't make the honor threshold... you dont rank, and you dont get rank points.

So, the amount of honor DOES matter.

Mind, even rushing Drek and not getting all the honor you can by not kililng LTs and towers, etc, you'd probably still hit that.. .

Except you wont hit standing 1 doing the Drek-Rush.

Because "serious" Ally Rankers are doing WSG premades. And getting about 6 times the honor/hour as the Drek-Rush strat.

So, Ally doing the Drek-Rush are buying themselves the worst of all worlds:

They dont get great rep. (As they lose ~400+ rep by not killing Galv, Towers, LTs and Commanders)
They dont get good honor compared to the serious rankers on their factions (who are doing WSG for WAY more honor).
They might not make enough honor get rank points in a given week.

Whereas Horde:

Rankers are doing AV honor pushes (and dont care about the win), so if you're doing that, you're at least staying marginall competitive.

Horde are capping/killing all the rep objectives, and even without the bonus for killing the boss, are getting as much, or more rep than the Allies (as you get rep for each captain, LT, Commander, and tower the enemy didn't cap when the game ends, and the same bonus for every LT, Commander, Captain, and tower you DID burn), so they repping up faster.

We dont even need to play to win; we just need to let the allies continue to do the thing that gets them the worst outcome and literally hands us our best outcome.

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Oh, and on top of that, since late yesterday/today, Horde have been winning quite a bit more, because people who have crossed the Revered rep threshold (and dont earn rep from the basic elite kills), have taken to Keep-Hearthing and wiping the allies in our base while they attempt Drek...

Giving us the additional time we need to roll in and kill Van.

So its even worse for them. They spend all that time to rush, get almost no bonus honor or bonus rep....

And still lose.

[Xanjori]

Except you wont hit standing 1 doing the Drek-Rush.

Because "serious" Ally Rankers are doing WSG premades. And getting about 6 times the honor/hour as the Drek-Rush strat.

Explain to me how WSG wins top the 4k honour from 8 minute AV wins?

[Lucetia]

How long will it take people to figure out why ally win just about every game?

Funny thing is AV was always setup for Alliance to win in Classic (even in Korrak's version) and yet people will tell you it's Horde Bias because Horde wins some games.

[Mukind]

Except it does, because not every Horde player is doing this... and ranks have Honor thresholds (well, there are thresholds to rank for a given week depending on your previous rank, RP degredation, etc).

Even if you place standing 1, if you didn't make the honor threshold... you dont rank, and you dont get rank points.

So, the amount of honor DOES matter.

Mind, even rushing Drek and not getting all the honor you can by not kililng LTs and towers, etc, you'd probably still hit that.. .

Except you wont hit standing 1 doing the Drek-Rush.

Because "serious" Ally Rankers are doing WSG premades. And getting about 6 times the honor/hour as the Drek-Rush strat.

So, Ally doing the Drek-Rush are buying themselves the worst of all worlds:

They dont get great rep. (As they lose ~400+ rep by not killing Galv, Towers, LTs and Commanders)
They dont get good honor compared to the serious rankers on their factions (who are doing WSG for WAY more honor).
They might not make enough honor get rank points in a given week.

Whereas Horde:

Rankers are doing AV honor pushes (and dont care about the win), so if you're doing that, you're at least staying marginall competitive.

Horde are capping/killing all the rep objectives, and even without the bonus for killing the boss, are getting as much, or more rep than the Allies (as you get rep for each captain, LT, Commander, and tower the enemy didn't cap when the game ends, and the same bonus for every LT, Commander, Captain, and tower you DID burn), so they repping up faster.

We dont even need to play to win; we just need to let the allies continue to do the thing that gets them the worst outcome and literally hands us our best outcome.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and on top of that, since late yesterday/today, Horde have been winning quite a bit more, because people who have crossed the Revered rep threshold (and dont earn rep from the basic elite kills), have taken to Keep-Hearthing and wiping the allies in our base while they attempt Drek...

Giving us the additional time we need to roll in and kill Van.

So its even worse for them. They spend all that time to rush, get almost no bonus honor or bonus rep....

And still lose.

who are you? lol where do you get tehse delusions from

My server has the highest alliance caps in NA as far as I can tell....It's all from AV.

While yes in theory you could match it with WSG. You would need 10 people to play dominant 6 min wins 20 hours a day. And be willing to burn thousands in godl in consumes.

Almost exalted with silverwing I ain't getting no 6x honor, with breaks/downtime I don't beat the AV rankers just spamming. And i haven't lost a match. WSG honor caps about 20k an hour with perfect games and disciplined players. And good luck sustaining that sort of discipline over a weekend.

If you played AV at the level some of us play WSG people would be at 2 mil honor already. As far as I know there are only two teams undefeated in the que on alliance who have been spamming the gulch....And my team isn't really ranking. The other has probably spent 1k gold a person by now. Maybe more. I already spent 150 and i'm cheap as fuck.

The other team I'm sure is playing WSG because it's more fun not because they don't think it would be easier/more rational to do it in AV. Just the gold alone required to force 6 min wins against real teams makes it so unappealing.

[Kagthul]

Explain to me how WSG wins top the 4k honour from 8 minute AV wins?

Because you aren't getting 4k honor and an 8-minute win.

They are mutually exclusive.

To get 4k Honor, you have to burn all the towers, kill the Captain, all the LTs and Commanders, cap GYs and as many of the elites as possible. And the towers have to be actually destroyed, since you get additional bonus honor per tower burned when the game ends. Ones tht at are tapped but not destroyed dont count. Same with GYs (you dont actually get honor for capping them during the game, but do get .. 12 or 24 honor per enemy GY you have capped at the end of the game). All that capping takes time, just from having to wait the 5 minutes for it to actually cap.

At the end of most of my games (im doing about 15-20 games a day on the days i sit down to play, which is not every day, like im not playing much today) it is extremely common for the Horde to end the game with well over 4k h onor (as we burn *everything* on the way up, and will cap SPGY and the Aid Station, and will go back-cap SHGY if it looks like we might have an actual chance at Drek because people Keep-hearthed to delay), and the Alliance, on a win.. to end the game with between 800 and 1200... and thats not a 7 minute game. Thats a 15-20 minute game (usually on the 15 minute side if we lose, 20 if we win due to a delay hearth).

Even if you WON and burned all the objectives to get the most honor, a total rout... you're looking at 12 minutes just waiting for things to cap and hunting down and killing LTs, etc, stopping to kill Galv. AND assuming your own towers dont get burned, because about 800 honor or so is bonus honor from still having your Towers and GYs uncapped at the end of the game.

Which Allies aren't doing.

Yesterday, i did 22 games (pretty much all my gaming time for the day) Galv ended the game alive in ALL of them. And we WON half due to Keep-hearth delays. In about half the Ally wins, they'd only managed to cap the RH, and the two Frostwolf Towers - we still had Iceblood and TP, and FWGY and IBGY.

On the flip side.. Allies are getting near-instant queues in WSG. And you can premade that.

I did 40 games (10 a day for the first four days. out of those, 28 were absolute curb-stomps of my Horde PuGs getting rolled by Premades. 6-7 minute matches. No way for us to stop them, at all. They can do about 7-8 games per hour comfortably, and if the Horde aren't smart and simply stop rezzing (to deny them HKs), with HKs, they can clear ~2500 honor a match.

Lets assume just SIX matches, for the sake of shooting low. Thats about 12,000 honor/hour. Again, rounding down for simplicity and to give the benefit of the doubt.

On most of the "wins" im seeing Alliance get... (about 4-5 games per hour, max, on a good day, lets call it 4; AV queues aren't instant, even for Allies) they get less than 2000. Well just call it 2000. So thats about 8000 per hour. Or 10,000 if we go best-case.

Still lower than serious rankers in WSG.

And thats assuming worst-case for WSG rankers and best-case for AV "winners".

If we go to "AV winners who actually get 4k/game" - you're getting... MAYBE 3 games per hour due to queue and the fact that the game takes a MINIMUM of 12 minutes. AND you cant lose any GYs or towers of your own (or your captain). So.. still 12,000 per hour, best case.

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who are you? lol where do you get tehse delusions from

Someone who is smarter than you, and pays actual attention to the scoreboard at the end of the game.

If anyone is delusional, its you. You're assuming absolute best-case, anecdotal super wins, when the reality isn't that. I base my numbers on reality and what is actually happening, not what is theoretically possible.

My server has the highest alliance caps in NA....It's all from AV

If only servers mattered.

While yes in theory you could match it with WSG. You would need 10 people to play dominant 6 min wins 20 hours a day. And be willing to burn thousands in godl in consumes.

You dont need to burn consumables. Just being premade will virtually insure a win. Youll have healers and dedicated flag carriers and decent gear, matched up against people in greens with no healer and no flag carrier.

Almost exalted with silverwing I ain't getting no 6x honor. And i haven't lost a match. WSG honor caps about 20k an hour with perfect games and discipiplined palyers. And good luck sustaining that sort of discipline over a weekend.

If you think people are pulling 20k an hour out of AV, you're completely out of your mind. Like, seek help, you dont live on the same planet as rational people, insane.

If you played AV at the level some of us play WSG people would be at 2 mil honor already

Except you cant, because you cant premade AV. You're anchored to the lowest common denominator.

And the lowest common denominator isn't killing Galv, LTs, burning towers, capping GYs, nothing.

Theyre running straight for Drek and just killing him. I haven't been in a single AV yet where the Horde didn't out-honor the Allies by 2x, usually more like 3x.

Not one.

[chubbybunny]

WSG = We Suck Guys
AB = Alliance Bad
AV = Alliance Victory

There you go, knock yourself out with them :-D

[Mukind]

Because you aren't getting 4k honor and an 8-minute win.

They are mutually exclusive.

To get 4k Honor, you have to burn all the towers, kill the Captain, all the LTs and Commanders, cap GYs and as many of the elites as possible. And the towers have to be actually destroyed, since you get additional bonus honor per tower burned when the game ends. Ones tht at are tapped but not destroyed dont count. Same with GYs (you dont actually get honor for capping them during the game, but do get .. 12 or 24 honor per enemy GY you have capped at the end of the game). All that capping takes time, just from having to wait the 5 minutes for it to actually cap.

At the end of most of my games (im doing about 15-20 games a day on the days i sit down to play, which is not every day, like im not playing much today) it is extremely common for the Horde to end the game with well over 4k h onor (as we burn *everything* on the way up, and will cap SPGY and the Aid Station, and will go back-cap SHGY if it looks like we might have an actual chance at Drek because people Keep-hearthed to delay), and the Alliance, on a win.. to end the game with between 800 and 1200... and thats not a 7 minute game. Thats a 15-20 minute game (usually on the 15 minute side if we lose, 20 if we win due to a delay hearth).

Even if you WON and burned all the objectives to get the most honor, a total rout... you're looking at 12 minutes just waiting for things to cap and hunting down and killing LTs, etc, stopping to kill Galv. AND assuming your own towers dont get burned, because about 800 honor or so is bonus honor from still having your Towers and GYs uncapped at the end of the game.

Which Allies aren't doing.

Yesterday, i did 22 games (pretty much all my gaming time for the day) Galv ended the game alive in ALL of them. And we WON half due to Keep-hearth delays. In about half the Ally wins, they'd only managed to cap the RH, and the two Frostwolf Towers - we still had Iceblood and TP, and FWGY and IBGY.

On the flip side.. Allies are getting near-instant queues in WSG. And you can premade that.

I did 40 games (10 a day for the first four days. out of those, 28 were absolute curb-stomps of my Horde PuGs getting rolled by Premades. 6-7 minute matches. No way for us to stop them, at all. They can do about 7-8 games per hour comfortably, and if the Horde aren't smart and simply stop rezzing (to deny them HKs), with HKs, they can clear ~2500 honor a match.

Lets assume just SIX matches, for the sake of shooting low. Thats about 12,000 honor/hour. Again, rounding down for simplicity and to give the benefit of the doubt.

On most of the "wins" im seeing Alliance get... (about 4-5 games per hour, max, on a good day, lets call it 4; AV queues aren't instant, even for Allies) they get less than 2000. Well just call it 2000. So thats about 8000 per hour. Or 10,000 if we go best-case.

Still lower than serious rankers in WSG.

And thats assuming worst-case for WSG rankers and best-case for AV "winners".

If we go to "AV winners who actually get 4k/game" - you're getting... MAYBE 3 games per hour due to queue and the fact that the game takes a MINIMUM of 12 minutes. AND you cant lose any GYs or towers of your own (or your captain). So.. still 12,000 per hour, best case.

- - - Updated - - -



Someone who is smarter than you, and pays actual attention to the scoreboard at the end of the game.

If anyone is delusional, its you. You're assuming absolute best-case, anecdotal super wins, when the reality isn't that. I base my numbers on reality and what is actually happening, not what is theoretically possible.



If only servers mattered.



You dont need to burn consumables. Just being premade will virtually insure a win. Youll have healers and dedicated flag carriers and decent gear, matched up against people in greens with no healer and no flag carrier.



If you think people are pulling 20k an hour out of AV, you're completely out of your mind. Like, seek help, you dont live on the same planet as rational people, insane.



Except you cant, because you cant premade AV. You're anchored to the lowest common denominator.

And the lowest common denominator isn't killing Galv, LTs, burning towers, capping GYs, nothing.

Theyre running straight for Drek and just killing him. I haven't been in a single AV yet where the Horde didn't out-honor the Allies by 2x, usually more like 3x.

Not one.

Don't need consumes? lol

Go away, you are clearly some pleb.

Why are you talking you have no idea what is going on. lol

6x honor would put us at like 10 mil caps you dolt. AV rankers will end the week with 2 million if they need to

[facefist]

I asked no question.

No, but you are clearly confused at how this works :-)

People still don't realize that horde making more honor is irrelevant, since we compete within our factions for the honor system.

Not entirely irrelevant though. Increases the value of WSG to alliance players since the relative gain of honor is smaller for them in AV. Meaning allies doing av come off worse compared to hordes doing av. Not that relevant still though

[munkeyinorbit]

Exactly.. Sick of hearing "but more honor!".. Who the fuck cares, unless the majority of people are delusional enough to think they have a shot at the really high ranks. I'd much prefer to just win, i aint chasing ranks.

That's the hordes problem. They think that because they have been crushing it 6 on 1 in wpvp that they are now a ranker. They don't understand that the majority of alliance just don't care about ranks. They aren't deluded to think they have any chance of ranking high and are after quick rep farms. All that is left for the horde to do in AV is to kill those 7 afk players and lose.

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How long will it take people to figure out that ally rushes faster but horde ends up with same or more honor almost every game?

Not as long as it is for you to realise what's going on.

[xpose]

oh no, ally get their exalted rewards in a day instead of horde getting it in two days. Whatever shall they do.

[Headayke]

After playing Korvaks Revenge on both factions on BFA and AV on Classic WoW on both factions. I have come to the conclusion, if you want to play Horde and win AV, play BFA. If you want to play Alliance and Win AV, play Classic WoW.

[Hctaz]

Horde gets more honor (and will therefore hit intermediate ranks and get the Blue great faster, as there are lots of people NOT doing the AV thing or only capable of doing a few a day - I'm one of those due to IRL)

But that... that's not how this works at all. How does NOBODY seem to understand the Classic WoW honor system? It's all based on relative honor ranking for your server and faction. You aren't competing against the Alliance, you're competing against the horde. You could earn 1k honor for an entire week and, as long as nobody is higher than you, you will be considered number 1 and get 12k ranking points. There could be another server where number 1 requires 700k honor. The guy with 1k honor who is number 1 on his server will get identical ranking points to the guy with 700k on the other server.